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Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
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Old
05-21-2012, 10:40 AM
  #326
sa cyred
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Fair enough. Can't disagree there. I would go as far as saying he's a REALLY good 3-4 defender. We ask him to do a ton, however, which I think is the crux of the problem.
Honestly, I just dont see him on another level than guys like Coburn, Meszaros, and Grossmann. They are all 3-4 defensemen. I think if you say Carle is a really good #3 or even 2, you have to say the same thing about Grossmann and Coburn (Meszaros had a bad year) Grossmann is the best defensively, Coburn is the best skater, Meszaros has the slapshot, while Carle has the outlet passing.

He isnt a REALLY GOOD #2 like Vansciver is saying. Nobody other than a few fans think that. I agree with him being overplayed which shows his weakness. One of the main reasons I dont want him back, is that he is going to get #1/2 money and I dont think he is that kind of player.

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05-21-2012, 10:44 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I suspect most reasonable fans put him in the 3-5 range depending in large part on the other players on the team. On the New York Rangers, he's a 5. On the Penguins, he's closer to a 3.
See thats one of the main points. Just because a player gets a lot of icetime on one team, doesnt mean he will on another. There are players that shouldnt even be in the top 4 on other teams, yet they get 20+ minutes a night. Doesnt mean they are #1/2 defenders, just what the team has to work with.

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05-21-2012, 11:04 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I suspect most reasonable fans put him in the 3-5 range depending in large part on the other players on the team. On the New York Rangers, he's a 5. On the Penguins, he's closer to a 3.
That's not true. McDonagh and Girardi do all of the heavy lifting on the Rangers. Carle faced tougher competition, had tougher zone starts, and yet finished with a better Corsi than anyone on the Rangers besides McDonagh and Girardi. He would be a #3 on the Rangers. Carle isn't a #1 by any means, but he is a lot better than people realize.

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05-21-2012, 11:14 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I suspect most reasonable fans put him in the 3-5 range depending in large part on the other players on the team. On the New York Rangers, he's a 5. On the Penguins, he's closer to a 3.
how many times would Torts have benched Carle for his mistakes with the puck?

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05-21-2012, 11:18 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Honestly, I just dont see him on another level than guys like Coburn, Meszaros, and Grossmann. They are all 3-4 defensemen. I think if you say Carle is a really good #3 or even 2, you have to say the same thing about Grossmann and Coburn (Meszaros had a bad year) Grossmann is the best defensively, Coburn is the best skater, Meszaros has the slapshot, while Carle has the outlet passing.
.
I disagree. I think he is better than Meszaros and Grossmann easily. It's a lot more closer with Coburn.

Meszaros has been basically used as a third pairing defender on the Flyers both years he has been here. Carle faces tougher competition both years and out performed him both years.

Grossmann had the worst Corsi of Flyers defenders that played at least 40 games this year. Grossmann seems to have benefited from playing with Robidas in the past.

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05-21-2012, 11:25 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
3-4 defender, who is good at moving the puck but is average defensively.
Carle is a solid defender in his own end. All the metrics available ar in contradiction with your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I suspect most reasonable fans put him in the 3-5 range depending in large part on the other players on the team. On the New York Rangers, he's a 5. On the Penguins, he's closer to a 3.
Most fans aren't reasonable when it comes to Carle. At least not the ones on this website. What he is on another team is pure speculation,

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Honestly, I just dont see him on another level than guys like Coburn, Meszaros, and Grossmann. They are all 3-4 defensemen. I think if you say Carle is a really good #3 or even 2, you have to say the same thing about Grossmann and Coburn (Meszaros had a bad year) Grossmann is the best defensively, Coburn is the best skater, Meszaros has the slapshot, while Carle has the outlet passing.

He isnt a REALLY GOOD #2 like Vansciver is saying. Nobody other than a few fans think that. I agree with him being overplayed which shows his weakness. One of the main reasons I dont want him back, is that he is going to get #1/2 money and I dont think he is that kind of player.
You're incorrect that Carle is going to get #1 money. Do you know what #1 money is? But he could get #2 money. Because that's what he is. He's a #2 NHL defenseman

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
See thats one of the main points. Just because a player gets a lot of icetime on one team, doesnt mean he will on another. There are players that shouldnt even be in the top 4 on other teams, yet they get 20+ minutes a night. Doesnt mean they are #1/2 defenders, just what the team has to work with.
So your saying that Carle only get's the minutes he plays due to that's just what the team ahs to work with?

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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
That's not true. McDonagh and Girardi do all of the heavy lifting on the Rangers. Carle faced tougher competition, had tougher zone starts, and yet finished with a better Corsi than anyone on the Rangers besides McDonagh and Girardi. He would be a #3 on the Rangers. Carle isn't a #1 by any means, but he is a lot better than people realize.
No question about it.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
how many times would Torts have benched Carle for his mistakes with the puck?
Pure speculation.

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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree. I think he is better than Meszaros and Grossmann easily. It's a lot more closer with Coburn.

Meszaros has been basically used as a third pairing defender on the Flyers both years he has been here. Carle faces tougher competition both years and out performed him both years.

Grossmann had the worst Corsi of Flyers defenders that played at least 40 games this year. Grossmann seems to have benefited from playing with Robidas in the past.
He is certainly better then Meszaros and Grossmann as an overall player. As far as COburn, they are similar players in terms of level of play. But they are different types of NHL defenseman.

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05-21-2012, 11:33 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree. I think he is better than Meszaros and Grossmann easily. It's a lot more closer with Coburn.

Meszaros has been basically used as a third pairing defender on the Flyers both years he has been here. Carle faces tougher competition both years and out performed him both years.

Grossmann had the worst Corsi of Flyers defenders that played at least 40 games this year. Grossmann seems to have benefited from playing with Robidas in the past.
But see, your looking at it from the point of view of his play in Dallas. You can't take that into consideration when looking at how he did for the Flyers. Carle's corsi was the worst on the team the first half of the season, but fixed it the second half. Grossmann had a longer bad half, but on the Flyers, was the best on defense. There is a reason why he was matched up against, Malkin, Crosby, Parise, Kovy etc etc.

But see thats where I disagree. I think Grossmann is easily the better defender out of the two. You like to use Corsi a lot, but you gotta remember you can't use advanced stats to see the whole picture. Remember Meszaros was rated the teams best defender last season for a reason.

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05-21-2012, 11:44 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
But see, your looking at it from the point of view of his play in Dallas. You can't take that into consideration when looking at how he did for the Flyers. Carle's corsi was the worst on the team the first half of the season, but fixed it the second half. Grossmann had a longer bad half, but on the Flyers, was the best on defense. There is a reason why he was matched up against, Malkin, Crosby, Parise, Kovy etc etc.

But see thats where I disagree. I think Grossmann is easily the better defender out of the two. You like to use Corsi a lot, but you gotta remember you can't use advanced stats to see the whole picture. Remember Meszaros was rated the teams best defender last season for a reason.
Part of the reason why he was matched up with top players is also his partner. They are a physical defense pairing. And there is also a reason why Carle has been matched up in the past against top players. It takes both players to make up a good pairing.

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05-21-2012, 11:53 AM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post



Pure speculation.

.

Matt Carle led the Flyers in giveaways

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05-21-2012, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
But see, your looking at it from the point of view of his play in Dallas. You can't take that into consideration when looking at how he did for the Flyers. Carle's corsi was the worst on the team the first half of the season, but fixed it the second half. Grossmann had a longer bad half, but on the Flyers, was the best on defense. There is a reason why he was matched up against, Malkin, Crosby, Parise, Kovy etc etc.

But see thats where I disagree. I think Grossmann is easily the better defender out of the two. You like to use Corsi a lot, but you gotta remember you can't use advanced stats to see the whole picture. Remember Meszaros was rated the teams best defender last season for a reason.
The reason is the media doesn't know what they are talking about. Meszaros was facing 3rd pairing competition. He couldn't have been the Flyers best defender.


Grossmann was matched up against players like Malkin because Timonen was injured and his minutes were limited. He was on the ice for more even strength goals against than any other Flyer in the regular season since we acquired him and that's with missing time due to injury. It wouldn't be the first time Lavi made a poor choice with his match ups (Briere vs Krejci last year).

When Pronger was healthy everyone couldn't wait to discredit Carle by saying he was a product of playing with Pronger, but he has proven he can play well without him. Yet Grossmann's play completely fell off the face of the earth when he was removed from the Robidas pairing in Dallas, but no one ever notices that. I don't see what makes him better than Carle.

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05-21-2012, 11:57 AM
  #336
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Carle gets absolutely owned when facing top lines. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. I've seen it in game after game watching Carle turn it over then get hemmed in the zone. He would not be a no. 3 on the Rangers either. Staal's definitely better than Carle as well you could possibly make the argument that Del Zotto is better too. You want proof? Watch them ****ing play. I ccan't even tell you how many times the Rangers' top 4 has made plays that I'm like "why can't Carle do that?" He would not be a no. 3 on the Rangers and isn't a better player than Mez.

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05-21-2012, 11:58 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree. I think he is better than Meszaros and Grossmann easily. It's a lot more closer with Coburn.

Meszaros has been basically used as a third pairing defender on the Flyers both years he has been here. Carle faces tougher competition both years and out performed him both years.

Grossmann had the worst Corsi of Flyers defenders that played at least 40 games this year. Grossmann seems to have benefited from playing with Robidas in the past.
Corsi QoC (2011-2012)
Grossmann 1.106
Coburn 0.492
Timmonen 0.187
Kubina 0.104
Carle 0.001
Bourdon -0.464
Mezsaros -0.923

The difference in level of competition between Carle and Grossmann is bigger than the level of competition difference Carle and Mez.

Grossmann also sported the worse offensive zone start % of Flyers defenders (43.9%, compared to Carle at 49.4%).

That said, I'll easily concede that the Corsi and Corsi Rel put Carle as our second best defenseman... let's just not over inflate his value by suggesting that he drew the toughest assignments.

At the end of the day, the stats basically tell you that Laviolette viewed/slotted Carle as a 3-4 defenseman and he performed well in that role. He slotted Grossmann as a number 1-2... and he was mediocre at best. I will absolutely concede that Mezsaros was viewed as a 5-6 defenseman and performed as such in 2011-2012, but I also think we all agree that Grossmann is not suited to be a 1-2 defenseman.

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05-21-2012, 11:58 AM
  #338
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Carle is NOT a physical player. Anybody who claims he is must be watching Mez or Grossmann instead.

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05-21-2012, 11:58 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
The reason is the media doesn't know what they are talking about. Meszaros was facing 3rd pairing competition. He couldn't have been the Flyers best defender.


Grossmann was matched up against players like Malkin because Timonen was injured and his minutes were limited. He was on the ice for more even strength goals against than any other Flyer in the regular season since we acquired him and that's with missing time due to injury. It wouldn't be the first time Lavi made a poor choice with his match ups (Briere vs Krejci last year).

When Pronger was healthy everyone couldn't wait to discredit Carle by saying he was a product of playing with Pronger, but he has proven he can play well without him. Yet Grossmann's play completely fell off the face of the earth when he was removed from the Robidas pairing in Dallas, but no one ever notices that. I don't see what makes him better than Carle.
No he hasn't. Where the **** are you getting this from? All I see is turnovers, too many that are unforced and being hemmed in the zone.

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05-21-2012, 12:02 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Matt Carle led the Flyers in giveaways
Chara, Doughty, Bouwmeester, Hamhuis, Girardi, Yandle, Wideman, had more giveaways than Carle. The more you handle the puck the more you opportunities you have to give up the pick. Giveaways are a poor way to evaluate a player.

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05-21-2012, 12:09 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Chara, Doughty, Bouwmeester, Hamhuis, Girardi, Yandle, Wideman, had more giveaways than Carle. The more you handle the puck the more you opportunities you have to give up the pick. Giveaways are a poor way to evaluate a player.
didnt say that. I was just pointing out to a certian someone that Carle does turn the puck over.
Kind of like if you lead your team in SOG you are likely to lead your team in missed SOG.
He is a good 3/4 defenseman. I just hope he is elsewhere next year.

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05-21-2012, 12:14 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Matt Carle led the Flyers in giveaways
So did Karlsson, Yandle, Chara, Doughty, Bieksa, and Dan Girardi. Who by the way plays for the Rangers. And all of them had more giveways then Carle did.

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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Carle is NOT a physical player. Anybody who claims he is must be watching Mez or Grossmann instead.
You are correct. Carle is not a player who would be considered a physical defenseman.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
didnt say that. I was just pointing out to a certian someone that Carle does turn the puck over.
Kind of like if you lead your team in SOG you are likely to lead your team in missed SOG.
He is a good 3/4 defenseman. I just hope he is elsewhere next year.
well if your referring to me, well thanks for pointing that out. As if I'm not aware of that. Your point is a bad one. Carle is a #2 NHL defenseman.

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05-21-2012, 12:14 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
Corsi QoC (2011-2012)
Grossmann 1.106
Coburn 0.492
Timmonen 0.187
Kubina 0.104
Carle 0.001
Bourdon -0.464
Mezsaros -0.923

The difference in level of competition between Carle and Grossmann is bigger than the level of competition difference Carle and Mez.

Grossmann also sported the worse offensive zone start % of Flyers defenders (43.9%, compared to Carle at 49.4%).

That said, I'll easily concede that the Corsi and Corsi Rel put Carle as our second best defenseman... let's just not over inflate his value by suggesting that he drew the toughest assignments.

At the end of the day, the stats basically tell you that Laviolette viewed/slotted Carle as a 3-4 defenseman and he performed well in that role. He slotted Grossmann as a number 1-2... and he was mediocre at best. I will absolutely concede that Mezsaros was viewed as a 5-6 defenseman and performed as such in 2011-2012, but I also think we all agree that Grossmann is not suited to be a 1-2 defenseman.
Corsi Rel QoC
Timonen 1.220
Coburn 1.079
Carle 0.589
Grossmann 0.525
Kubina. 0.470
Bourdon 0.037
Meszaros -0.040
Lilja -0.960


http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#

Corsi Relative is used to evaluate players because it shows you the difference of the team's Corsi when they are on the ice versus when they are off.

I never said Carle drew the toughest assignments. I've repeatedly said that Carle was basically used as a #3 defender in this thread, but he has been drawing tougher competition than Mez. Mez has been used as a #5 defender. He isn't close to being the Flyers best defenseman and it's an absolute joke he was considered as such last year.

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05-21-2012, 12:23 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Corsi Rel QoC
Timonen 1.220
Coburn 1.079
Carle 0.589
Grossmann 0.525
Kubina. 0.470
Bourdon 0.037
Meszaros -0.040
Lilja -0.960


http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+45+46+63+67#

Corsi Relative is used to evaluate players because it shows you the difference of the team's Corsi when they are on the ice versus when they are off.

I never said Carle drew the toughest assignments. I've repeatedly said that Carle was basically used as a #3 defender in this thread, but he has been drawing tougher competition than Mez. Mez has been used as a #5 defender. He isn't close to being the Flyers best defenseman and it's an absolute joke he was considered as such last year.
I'm not the greatest guy in the World in understanding advanced statistics. But in terms of Corsi O of C. That is determined by the offensive talent that a player faces as a defenseman, correct? So does it consider the defensive ability that a player faces? Because it's a question of how a player is used. And a player should be measured both in terms of offensive and defensive situations when determining how a player is used.

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05-21-2012, 12:36 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
.



well if your referring to me, well thanks for pointing that out. As if I'm not aware of that. Your point is a bad one. Carle is a #2 NHL defenseman.
Carle is a #2 defenseman. If he has Chris Pronger as his defensive partner.

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05-21-2012, 12:39 PM
  #346
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didnt say that. I was just pointing out to a certian someone that Carle does turn the puck over.
Kind of like if you lead your team in SOG you are likely to lead your team in missed SOG.
He is a good 3/4 defenseman. I just hope he is elsewhere next year.
I just don't understand why people feel the need to get rid of someone who is a good #3 defender on this team. I feel like he is the Jeff Carter of our defense. He is a good player, but because he doesn't fit the ideal mold of a Flyers defender people treat him as if he is a glorified depth defenseman and can't wait to dump him. It doesn't make sense to me especially when everything factual points to him being much better than most realize.

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05-21-2012, 12:43 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Carle is a #2 defenseman. If he has Chris Pronger as his defensive partner.
Carle's numbers without Pronger have been just as good with him. Even in some cases better without Pronger. Carle is not reliant on playing with Pronger to be a #2 NHL defenseman. That's another myth that has been invented among some of the fanbase.

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05-21-2012, 12:44 PM
  #348
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Dont mind this. Iphone is going crazy

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05-21-2012, 12:45 PM
  #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I just don't understand why people feel the need to get rid of someone who is a good #3 defender on this team. I feel like he is the Jeff Carter of our defense. He is a good player, but because he doesn't fit the ideal mold of a Flyers defender people treat him as if he is a glorified depth defenseman and can't wait to dump him. It doesn't make sense to me especially when everything factual points to him being much better than most realize.
Eh in certain stats he is good while in others not so much. You dont pay a crazy amount of money for a #3 defender

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05-21-2012, 12:46 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Carle's numbers without Pronger have been just as good with him. Even in some cases better without Pronger. Carle is not reliant on playing with Pronger to be a #2 NHL defenseman. That's another myth that has been invented among some of the fanbase.
kind of like the myth that the Carle lovers would think the Flyers D would be doomed without him.

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