It just seems like every time this subject comes up you're always looking for some sort of proof that trading Richards and Carter was a mistake.
He's not looking for proof that the trades were a mistake; he's asking how Rolex knows that Richards and Carter were splitting the room and polluting the younger players. The part about Giroux having more heart than Richards and Carter combined, we'll just take as the opinion of a fan who appears to be annoyed that Richards and Carter are still playing which, as everybody keeps saying, has nothing to do with their heart but more with being hangers-on, bringing up the tail end of a Kings team loaded with tons of other talent.
The trades would look better on paper if they didn't pick up Bryz's huge contract.
It's just killer as now we have to move a important piece(s) of the offense (the one that we made so pretty by trading Carter and Richie) to beef up the D with Prongers demise and Kimmo's health dwindling.
Well you know they did fill a roster with Carter and Richards here previously. If Bryz, Schenn, Voracek, Jagr, Talbot and Simmonds were replaced with Richards and Carter, we'd have a decent amount of money left. Assuming they signed Bryz, they could have still signed Talbot, but then they'd have to get a little creative to fill out the rest of the roster. They could have done this:
At that point I think they'd have about 700K to spend. Or maybe they would have had more because I'm looking at Kubina with a $3.8 million cap hit I don't think anybody would miss. Then again he was a deadline acquisition so we didn't take all of that, right? They could have also just traded Carter. Or Hartnell if he'd waive his NTC. And yes, with Richards on this team instead of Schenn/Simmonds, they are better.
You're telling me you think that lineup you have listed there is better than the one we put out this season?
You're telling me you think that lineup you have listed there is better than the one we put out this season?
Probably not. But as I've said before, assuming Carter needed to be moved to make way for Bryzgalov, how would this forward line-up (or some combination of it) have fared:
Hartnell- Giroux-Jagr (possibly depending on cap issues)
JVR-Richards-Briere
Vorachek-Talbot-Read
Courturier-?-?
IMO this team would have probably missed the playoffs altogether or maybe squeeked in if Carter and Richards were still on the "team" and Pronger had been injured just the same. Also I emphasize team, b/c culturally they had issues and the Captain wasn't seeing eye to eye with the coach so not sure how that would have helped the situation even if Richards grinned and beared it...
Moreover, we certainly wouldn't have had the depth we had to be one of the top offensive teams in the league which helped us overcome Bryz's 3 GAA where apart from a month and some games here and there the team had to outscore him as the joke went.
On the defensive side...they may have helped against the tighter D teams like the Rangers, Tampa, and Boston who we had a hard time beating and then eventually NJ but not so sure it would have helped us overcome our decimated D and Bryz's mediocrity.
Having said this..we need to get some more mobility and production on the back end to keep the tight D teams honest. We also need some more size down the middle until Couts and Schenn round out. I also think we could use a guy like Parise or another reliable goal scorer. I think Simmonds production will go down a bit although Couts' might go up and if JVR is around and healthy that might help. However, I think all around we'll be fine offensively even if we move some pieces for defensive help.
I'm not sure how you go the whole season saying how superb both trades were, then the Flyers get eliminated, the Kings get hot, then all of sudden the trades are viewed as failures?
We got younger and deeper.
The teams we traded with got the best, short term players.
I would have expected the trades to favor the teams getting the vets in the short term and the Flyers more and more every season thereafter. Right now, the trade look fairly even for Kings and Flyers (lol at Columbus) and I would expect the Flyers to continue trending up as the 4 young guys we got get bigger, more experienced and better. That's not even mentioning Grossmann or Cousins who will both be part of the team's future.
I'm not sure how you go the whole season saying how superb both trades were, then the Flyers get eliminated, the Kings get hot, then all of sudden the trades are viewed as failures?
We got younger and deeper.
The teams we traded with got the best, short term players.
I would have expected the trades to favor the teams getting the vets in the short term and the Flyers more and more every season thereafter. Right now, the trade look fairly even for Kings and Flyers (lol at Columbus) and I would expect the Flyers to continue trending up as the 4 young guys we got get bigger, more experienced and better. That's not even mentioning Grossmann or Cousins who will both be part of the team's future.
Not sure either unless one has a "day trader" mentality and judges trends quarterly.
Anyway, LA hasn't won anything yet last I checked. If they play NY it's going to be tough for them especially if their achilles heel (PP) continues to be left exposed. They will need the PP against a team like NY although NY needs to be better as well. I really think the special teams will be key in that series given the goaltending matchup if both teams move on.
Last edited by OccupySouthBroadSt: 05-21-2012 at 10:00 AM.
Probably not. But as I've said before, assuming Carter needed to be moved to make way for Bryzgalov, how would this forward line-up (or some combination of it) have fared:
Hartnell- Giroux-Jagr (possibly depending on cap issues)
JVR-Richards-Briere
Vorachek-Talbot-Read
Courturier-?-?
Think about it.
That's a lot of ifs though. Presumably someone like Rinaldo would be on that fourth line and depending on cap maybe someone like Wellwood or maybe a more dependable veteran guy (I don't remember who was available as a UFA last season). The Grossman trade may not have gone down if Richards is kept too (the Kings 2nd rounder was part of that deal). It's just a lot of ifs and I really don't think that Richards (or Richards and Carter) being here would have led to any different result. The team was third in the league in offense, and while Richards and Carter would have helped defensively, I don't think their presence would have led to a deeper playoff run (or at least not a Stanley Cup). No to mention the fact that moving forward, this team is younger and has a higher ceiling than it did entering last offseason.
That being said, if you told me that Richards and Carter would have guaranteed them a Cup this year, I would undo the trades in a heartbeat. But I honestly don't think that is the case and I think moving forward this team is in a better position now than it was entering last year's offseason. And that is not even considering whether the locker room issues are true. If those rumors were true, then the trades look even better. If they weren't true, they still look good to me.
I know there's this argument of the Kings have had success in the playoffs, therefore they won the trade.
Can't you argue our own playoff success is equal to theirs (not in length, but meaning)? This Flyers team beat the same Penguins that Carter and Richards couldn't handle.
Jon Quick has allowed more than two goals just ONCE during this postseason.
Mike Richards and Jeff Carter have combined for 17 points in 13 games.
Simmonds and Voracek combined for combined for 16 points in 11 games.
Schenn and Couturier combined for 13 points in 11 games.
Couturier did an outstanding job shutting down arguably the best player in the league in the first round.
So the two rookies involved in the trades put up nearly the same amount of points in less games than Richards and Carter. In the first round, Mike Richards really couldn't have done any better than Couturier did in shutting down Malkin. Voracek and Simmonds, the two veterans involved in the trades put up one fewer point in two fewer games, while their defense was clearly not as good as the rookies or Richards and Carter. Jon Quick has far out-shined Bryz, obviously. The Flyers have four players with similar points and similar defensive skills to two players on the Kings and the Kings have a far superior goalie (at least statistically), but you are telling me that Richards and Carter on this team would have meant a deeper run and their impacts are what is driving the Kings? Can someone elaborate on this a little more than just saying "the Kings are still playing!"
So the two rookies involved in the trades put up nearly the same amount of points in less games than Richards and Carter. In the first round, Mike Richards really couldn't have done any better than Couturier did in shutting down Malkin. Voracek and Simmonds, the two veterans involved in the trades put up one fewer point in two fewer games, while their defense was clearly not as good as the rookies or Richards and Carter. Jon Quick has far out-shined Bryz, obviously. The Flyers have four players with similar points and similar defensive skills to two players on the Kings and the Kings have a far superior goalie (at least statistically), but you are telling me that Richards and Carter on this team would have meant a deeper run and their impacts are what is driving the Kings? Can someone elaborate on this a little more than just saying "the Kings are still playing!"
There is no legitimate argument. Their goaltender is much better and their defense is held together by scotch tape. That's the difference.
Jon Quick has allowed more than two goals just ONCE during this postseason.
Mike Richards and Jeff Carter have combined for 17 points in 13 games.
Simmonds and Voracek combined for combined for 16 points in 11 games.
Schenn and Couturier combined for 13 points in 11 games.
Couturier did an outstanding job shutting down arguably the best player in the league in the first round.
So the two rookies involved in the trades put up nearly the same amount of points in less games than Richards and Carter. In the first round, Mike Richards really couldn't have done any better than Couturier did in shutting down Malkin. Voracek and Simmonds, the two veterans involved in the trades put up one fewer point in two fewer games, while their defense was clearly not as good as the rookies or Richards and Carter. Jon Quick has far out-shined Bryz, obviously. The Flyers have four players with similar points and similar defensive skills to two players on the Kings and the Kings have a far superior goalie (at least statistically), but you are telling me that Richards and Carter on this team would have meant a deeper run and their impacts are what is driving the Kings? Can someone elaborate on this a little more than just saying "the Kings are still playing!"
The "Kings are still playing" and although your points statistics are nice, showing that the 4 Flyer players involved put up 2.61 points per game as opposed to 1.31 points per game for Richards and Carter, I'm pretty sure you're not giving enough credit for team defence which, to my mind was sorely lacking in the Flyers game; 4.4 GAA for the Flyers as opposed to 1.46 GAA for the Kings. I mean if the four Flyer players had similar defensive skills to the LA two, then surely the Flyers would have been able to avoid a 10 goal outburst by the Penguins in game 4 in which Schenn was -4, Simmonds -3 and Couturier -1. In fact, throughout the 11 games the Flyers played, the combined +- for the 4 players is -7 while Richards and Carter are showing a nice +4 in their 13 games. Do you really think the Kings would be this far with Simmonds, Schenn and Jack Johnson in their line-up over Richards and Carter? And I have never once mentionned Carter staying on the Flyers; I've always assumed that he was a necessary deletion in order for the Flyers to obtain Bryzgalov, such as he is. However, I contend that the 2011-12 Flyers team, minus Schenn and Simmonds but adding Courturier and Voracek, would have achieved greater things with Richards' play at both ends of the ice. I mean he went to the conference finals 3 years out of 5 and, if LA gets to the dance, the SCFs' 2 out of 3 years. In the 2 off-years, 2008 and 2011, the Flyers lost to the eventual winner of the cup. Remember, it's not what you can do for me tomorrow, it's what you can do to-day and, right now, frankly, the Kings are where the Flyers thought they would be.
We got bounced out in embarrassing fashion in the 2nd round again, the Kings are in the conference final.
This is why the Kings are still alive and the reason the Flyers are not...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers
Jon Quick has allowed more than two goals just ONCE during this postseason.
This is the bottom line. If you made a pie chart of the Kings playoff success this season I'd say 90% of it does not include Richards and Carter. You're just trying to see things that aren't there. JXC agreeing with you should clue you in to something.
Can you now analyze the defensive value those players bring to the table?
Without a doubt Richards is a better defensive player than anyone listed. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. Carter is solid defensively, as is Schenn, Cooter, and Simmonds. Voracek is ok, but certainly not on the same level as the other players. However, looking at the NJD series, even if Richards and Carter played their best defensive series they ever played, it would likely not have changed the result. Similarly, Richards and Carter (regardless of how they are playing in LA) are not the reason that team is winning. Jon Quick, far and away, is the driving force behind them. Team defense is great, and I am always one of the people bringing that up when others are bashing Bryz, but Quick is playing out of his mind. Richards and Carter are playing well for sure, but take them out and the Kings are still winning. Put them on Philly and the Flyers are still losing.
If you (or others) are honestly going to sit there and tell me that better defensive play from our forwards would have won the series against NJD, you are delusional. While better team defense, goaltending, and offense may have won that series for us, just having the defensive play of Richards and Carter would likely not have changed the outcome.
I'd like to see somebody quantify chemistry.....this current group has it. The group with Carter and Richards did not in Lavi's first full season and again Richards suggested as much saying he preferred LA b/c it was not "little groups anymore."
Nonetheless, this debate as to whether we would have gone further with Carter and Richards is pretty futile and also the Boston debacle from last year suggested we had some issues beyond goaltending anyway.
The "Kings are still playing" and although your points statistics are nice, showing that the 4 Flyer players involved put up 2.61 points per game as opposed to 1.31 points per game for Richards and Carter, I'm pretty sure you're not giving enough credit for team defence which, to my mind was sorely lacking in the Flyers game; 4.4 GAA for the Flyers as opposed to 1.46 GAA for the Kings. I mean if the four Flyer players had similar defensive skills to the LA two, then surely the Flyers would have been able to avoid a 10 goal outburst by the Penguins in game 4 in which Schenn was -4, Simmonds -3 and Couturier -1. In fact, throughout the 11 games the Flyers played, the combined +- for the 4 players is -7 while Richards and Carter are showing a nice +4 in their 13 games. Do you really think the Kings would be this far with Simmonds, Schenn and Jack Johnson in their line-up over Richards and Carter? And I have never once mentionned Carter staying on the Flyers; I've always assumed that he was a necessary deletion in order for the Flyers to obtain Bryzgalov, such as he is. However, I contend that the 2011-12 Flyers team, minus Schenn and Simmonds but adding Courturier and Voracek, would have achieved greater things with Richards' play at both ends of the ice. I mean he went to the conference finals 3 years out of 5 and, if LA gets to the dance, the SCFs' 2 out of 3 years. In the 2 off-years, 2008 and 2011, the Flyers lost to the eventual winner of the cup. Remember, it's not what you can do for me tomorrow, it's what you can do to-day and, right now, frankly, the Kings are where the Flyers thought they would be.
To begin with, yes I think the Kings are doing the same thing without Richards and Carter. Much like I think the Flyers would have with them. As I mentioned earlier, team defense is great, but adding one or two forwards is not going to change the abysmal play of the defensemen and the shaky play of Bryz. Would it help to upgrade the forwards at defense? Of course it would. But it would not have saved this team. Couturier played about as well as anyone would have against Pittsburgh in that first round, holding Malkin to only slightly over a point per game as apposed to his nearly 1.5 PPG (three of his eight points came in the blowout game and he was held scoreless twice). Not a knock on Richards, but assuming he was put out against Malkin, how much better do you really think he would have done? The bottom line is this. Without Richards and Carter, the Kings are likely still in it, while with Richards and Carter, the Flyers are likely still out.
Even if the team only traded Carter, I still think they would have had the same or at least a similar result. Too many injuries to be able to say that one player would have made a difference. Again, if only Carter is traded we don't even know who else would have been on this team (i.e. Talbot, Jagr). Just too many ifs.
What we know is this: the flyers got owned by the Devils in pretty much every aspect of the game. The Kings are owning opponents in every aspect of the game. I think Richards is an excellent player, but I don't think he would have changed the series against the Devils and I don't think he is changing the outcome (at least thus far) of the Kings. That honor goes to Jon Quick, who is playing out of his mind, regardless of team defense.
Without a doubt Richards is a better defensive player than anyone listed. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. Carter is solid defensively, as is Schenn, Cooter, and Simmonds. Voracek is ok, but certainly not on the same level as the other players. However, looking at the NJD series, even if Richards and Carter played their best defensive series they ever played, it would likely not have changed the result. Similarly, Richards and Carter (regardless of how they are playing in LA) are not the reason that team is winning. Jon Quick, far and away, is the driving force behind them. Team defense is great, and I am always one of the people bringing that up when others are bashing Bryz, but Quick is playing out of his mind. Richards and Carter are playing well for sure, but take them out and the Kings are still winning. Put them on Philly and the Flyers are still losing.
If you (or others) are honestly going to sit there and tell me that better defensive play from our forwards would have won the series against NJD, you are delusional. While better team defense, goaltending, and offense may have won that series for us, just having the defensive play of Richards and Carter would likely not have changed the outcome.
For once I agree with you. People make it sound like we got rid of two of the best defensive players in the NHL (well one of them is), and added 4 players who can only play offense.
For once I agree with you. People make it sound like we got rid of two of the best defensive players in the NHL (well one of them is), and added 4 players who can only play offense.
Exactly. Not to mention that the reason we lost the NJD series was more than just the defensive play of our forwards. Goaltending, defensemen, offense, AND the defensive play of our forwards led to the Flyers getting embarrassed. My God how many times did a defenseman turn the puck over in their own zone? How badly did the Devils shut down the Flyers offense? How many shaky goals did Bryz let in? But yeah, Mike Richards would have saved the day!
You're telling me you think that lineup you have listed there is better than the one we put out this season?
Yes. Granted, that lineup would make it tougher to deal with injuries, especially to the top two lines, and obviously it's missing a center. Depends what they did to fill that last spot. But that lineup makes up for what's missing on the offensive end with much better defense. It's a more balanced team, and would have been better suited for the playoffs.
Jon Quick has allowed more than two goals just ONCE during this postseason
And before Richards and Carter got there, how did those previous post seasons go for Quick?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose
There is no legitimate argument. Their goaltender is much better and their defense is held together by scotch tape. That's the difference.
Yeah right. Here in Philly, everyone in front on Bryz played bad, out in LA it's all Quick. I forgot, he's on the ice all by himself playing against 5 Coyotes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead81
Do you really think the Kings would be this far with Simmonds, Schenn and Jack Johnson in their line-up over Richards and Carter?
We can speculate till we're blue in the face but the facts tell the story. Simmonds in LA, no deep playoff runs. Richards and Carter added to team, Kings in conference finals. It's all a coincidence though. When it happened here though, they "earned" it....LOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller
This is why the Kings are still alive and the reason the Flyers are not...
Richards and Carter are two of those reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller
This is the bottom line. If you made a pie chart of the Kings playoff success this season I'd say 90% of it does not include Richards and Carter. You're just trying to see things that aren't there. JXC agreeing with you should clue you in to something.
If 90% doesn't include Richards and Carter, where was all this success in the postseason before they got there? Oh that's right, we have to go back to the Gretzky days.
Out of that 90% that doesn't include Richards and Carter, how much of it was there last year, the year before, and three years ago?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers
To begin with, yes I think the Kings are doing the same thing without Richards and Carter.
So how far did they go last year before they got there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers
Without Richards and Carter, the Kings are likely still in it, while with Richards and Carter, the Flyers are likely still out.
The facts say otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers
Just too many ifs.
So deal with facts instead, they will tell you the truth!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers
That honor goes to Jon Quick, who is playing out of his mind, regardless of team defense.
Yeah, LMFAO, has nothing to do with the team playing in front of him.
If 90% doesn't include Richards and Carter, where was all this success in the postseason before they got there? Oh that's right, we have to go back to the Gretzky days.
Out of that 90% that doesn't include Richards and Carter, how much of it was there last year, the year before, and three years ago?
More than that, how did the Kings do during this season when Richards was struggling after returning from his injury and Carter wasn't on the team yet? The coaching change is a part of the reason for the turnaround, and the other one is that Richards and Carter are there and in form.
