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FINAL: Where does Nash end up?

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Old
05-21-2012, 03:53 PM
  #76
DangleDman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
My thoughts from yesterday...





End results:
- Boston alleviates their goaltending headache and allows Rask/Khudobin to be the tandem going forward
- Boston upgrades from Peverley with Nash
- Boston keeps Hamilton and their prospects intact
- Boston clears almost $6 million in salary by moving two pending contract extensions, giving them a chance to re-sign their free agents
Alright Mayor, I appreciate your logic for your above referenced trade.... Do you see Calgary including Baertschi or Ottawa including Zibanejad as realistic options? Those would be my top two realistic targets if I'm Howson.

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05-21-2012, 03:55 PM
  #77
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Drop Peverly.

I would make a hard attempt at Krejci + Thomas + late 1st for Nash. If Chiarelli says no, then I offer Kubalik as well. If still no, then I drop it.

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05-21-2012, 03:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Confound View Post
Krejci, Peverley, Thomas AND a first for Nash?

Wow, holy over payment.

Krejci and a first is fair enough, add in Peverley and Thomas also? I don't even want Nash and that cap hit anyway, CBJ can keep Nash and his 7.8 mill cap hit. The guy struggles to hit 70 points year in and year out, he had one good year and other than that he has been average.
The guy has a bigger cap hit than Stamkos and is right up there with Sid and Geno, no way he is worth anywhere near that type of money.
You must evaluate skill set, size, age, work ethic, and character.... Stats are not necessarily the end all be all when determining value, because the player's teammates play such a large role in that category.

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05-21-2012, 04:00 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by DangleDman View Post
Here is the centerpiece that the CBJ should ask for in a trade to potential partners:

NY- Kreider
Boston- Hamilton
San Jose- Couture
Ottawa- Zibanejad
Calgary- Baertschi
They've already asked for Couture and Doug Wilson declined. Whether that stance has changed or not is unclear, we will just have to wait and see.

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05-21-2012, 04:02 PM
  #80
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Hopefully far away from Boston.

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05-21-2012, 04:03 PM
  #81
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Something around Patrick Kane for Nash might work.

But something tells me Kanes on his way to Buffalo.

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05-21-2012, 04:07 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Confound View Post
Krejci, Peverley, Thomas AND a first for Nash?

Wow, holy over payment.

Krejci and a first is fair enough, add in Peverley and Thomas also? I don't even want Nash and that cap hit anyway, CBJ can keep Nash and his 7.8 mill cap hit. The guy struggles to hit 70 points year in and year out, he had one good year and other than that he has been average.
The guy has a bigger cap hit than Stamkos and is right up there with Sid and Geno, no way he is worth anywhere near that type of money.
Yup, Nash has been "average" except for one year....he's only a 7-time 30-goal scorer and has twice hit 40. Neither Krejci nor Peverley has hit 25 in their careers a single time; Peverley has hit 15 only once.

What's the value of Tim Thomas? He's 38, is most likely declining, and is a $5 million cap hit even if he retires (35+ contract). Moving him allows Rask to step in as the starter and Khudobin as the backup, clears a huge amount of salary, and allows the Bruins the chance to either re-up their own guys or else make a serious run in free agency.

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05-21-2012, 04:13 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by DangleDman View Post
Alright Mayor, I appreciate your logic for your above referenced trade.... Do you see Calgary including Baertschi or Ottawa including Zibanejad as realistic options? Those would be my top two realistic targets if I'm Howson.
Honestly, I don't. The assumption is that either of them is truly NHL ready, which is a big question mark. And the fans in Columbus aren't going to tolerate trading Rick Nash in exchange for a bunch of futures, particularly if there's no real immediate help. The exception would be if it's someone who's about to break out.

My top few would be something like Winnipeg (Enstrom, Burmistrov, 9th overall), Boston (which I've already gone into), Washington (both first-rounders, rights to Vokoun, and one of Galiev, Orlov, or Green)....honestly, there's a very small number of teams that have both the short-term and long-term help that would make sense for both sides.

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05-21-2012, 04:25 PM
  #84
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Red Wings Senior Vice President Jimmy Devellano hinted earlier they would like to get bigger and tougher to play against. That sounds like Nash.

Trade assets for Nash, sign replacement assets for lost assets from free agency. That could be the tactic to work this through.

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05-21-2012, 04:34 PM
  #85
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Unfortunately this won't be the "Final" Nash thread. It will be another thread to rehash what has been offered, maybe been offered, would never be offered and how awesome or crapy Nash or his contract may be. At this point it's believed that Boston, Toronto, NYR, San Jose and Vancouver are on his "list". There have been mumblings (probably HF talk or CBJ fan wishes) of Philly and Los Angeles being potential options and then there are a couple teams that are likely great fits for the demands of Scott Howson but don't appear to be on the list (Ottawa, Washington)

The CBJ appear to be looking for a young top 6 forward or top 4 d-man, a top prospect or two and a 1st round pick. Clearly that wasn't offered at the deadline and with the NYR playing as well as they have in the playoffs I suspect they don't sweeten the pot and are likely out. Personally, I think Ottawa is an ideal fit from a CBJ standpoint (not that Ottawa is pushing for Nash). They have the young players, a deep prospect pool and a mid level 1st that could likely be moved. Nash likely pushes them into the next level of team with a potential shot at the cup sooner rather than later and balances their scoring. Moot point if he won't waive or they aren't interested.

Nash gets moved but until the GM's start to ramp up the talks before the draft we really have no idea. Nash has been a great Franchise Face for Columbus. The team has been average in the best years and he's had little to play with. He'll get a nice return but I don't see players like Couture, Kreider, Seguin, etc. being part of the deal unless it's something even bigger than just Nash. Columbus does have a very good defensive prospect pool but little else to offer of significance at this point.

I wish this were the last thread but alas, it's just another....

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05-21-2012, 04:36 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Red Wings Senior Vice President Jimmy Devellano hinted earlier they would like to get bigger and tougher to play against. That sounds like Nash.

Trade assets for Nash, sign replacement assets for lost assets from free agency. That could be the tactic to work this through.
The only pieces I see that are desirable for Columbus would be Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Howard and Helm. Z and D aren't being moved, Helm isn't worth being the main piece for Nash, and I doubt Howard gets moved.

The rest are pieces that work because the system works.

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05-21-2012, 04:53 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
The only pieces I see that are desirable for Columbus would be Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Howard and Helm. Z and D aren't being moved, Helm isn't worth being the main piece for Nash, and I doubt Howard gets moved.

The rest are pieces that work because the system works.
What if they also stop C**kblocking Columbus's move to the Eastern conference in the next realignment?

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05-21-2012, 04:58 PM
  #88
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Not all are on the "list" but I think the CBJ would ask (and likely do) something along the lines of the following (maybe add a pick from CBJ):

NYR - Stepan, Erixon/Sauer, Miller, 1st (Only give up one roster player and futures unless Sauer is part of the deal - injury concern)

TOR - 1st, Gardner, Frattin (Unlikely as Nash really doesn't address a primary need)

MON - 1st, Eller, Yemelin (Also unlikely given their need to rebuild and I don't think Nash waives)

WSH - Johansson, Galiev, Orlov, 1st (Unlikely for salary cap reasons but loss of Semin would be where cap space may come from ???)

BOS - Krejci, Knight, Khubodin, 1st (Krejci and futures may not impact Boston that much and moves Seguin back to the middle?)

OTT - Zibanejad, Silfverberg, 1st (All futures from a playoff team. Salary dump needed?)

I'm sure this will be met with brimstone and fire. Likely there needs to be a salary dump in some cases but I was attempting to express what I think the CBJ would be looking for and might have a chance of completing a deal. These are the types of pieces I think the CBJ will be asking for.

Getting is another issue.

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05-21-2012, 05:00 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Honestly, I don't. The assumption is that either of them is truly NHL ready, which is a big question mark. And the fans in Columbus aren't going to tolerate trading Rick Nash in exchange for a bunch of futures, particularly if there's no real immediate help. The exception would be if it's someone who's about to break out.

My top few would be something like Winnipeg (Enstrom, Burmistrov, 9th overall), Boston (which I've already gone into), Washington (both first-rounders, rights to Vokoun, and one of Galiev, Orlov, or Green)....honestly, there's a very small number of teams that have both the short-term and long-term help that would make sense for both sides.
Albeit a brief sample size, both Zibanejad and Baertschi were immediate factors in the games they played at the nhl level this year.

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05-21-2012, 05:11 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
What if they also stop C**kblocking Columbus's move to the Eastern conference in the next realignment?
That + one of Mike Babcock or Paul Holmgren and we have a deal!

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05-21-2012, 05:32 PM
  #91
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Albeit a brief sample size, both Zibanejad and Baertschi were immediate factors in the games they played at the nhl level this year.
True, but if I had to choose between those two or Burmistrov, I'm taking Burmistrov.

Winnipeg, to me, would make logical sense for these reasons.
1) Claude Noel was an assistant for a few years in Columbus and interim head coach; he and Nash apparently did not dislike each other. Whether they got along great or not is unknown.
2) Noel was caught a couple weeks ago talking about how Burmistrov had no business being in the NHL either of the last two seasons. Although Burmistrov's point totals improved from his first to his second year, his game didn't look to have improved at all.
3) Burmistrov is not currently producing; adding Nash in his place up front would add an additional 30 goals to a team that was within striking distance of the playoffs.
4) Every defenseman on the team looked better last year than the year before, with the exception of Tobias Enstrom. Even fully healthy, he probably wouldn't have hit 40 points for the first time since his second NHL season. Enstrom has never been a goal scorer, but he didn't produce much in the way of offense.
5) Arturs Kulda is NHL-ready, but his path is currently blocked. Byfuglien and Hainsey both have NTCs, while Clitsome, Stuart, and Bogosian wouldn't be moved except for a high price. That would leave Enstrom as the odd man out.
6) Paul Postma may be ready to step in as the 7th defenseman, and he's in the same situation.
7) Winnipeg has the salary cap space to get a deal done.
8) Winnipeg has a slew of young forwards who would need the guidance and example of what they can become...Kane, Little, and Scheifele especially.
9) The likelihood of the 9th overall pick this year being able to step in and produce is not particularly high.

Would a deal of Nash for Burmistrov, Enstrom, and the 9th overall pick be done? Perhaps the initial acquisition of Jeff Carter last year is the most comparable. The 9th overall in this year's draft is worth less than 8th last year; 8th last year was going to have one of Zibanejad, Ryan Murphy, Hamilton, or Couturier available. This year's pick is much more up in the air.

Burmistrov isn't quite on the level of what Voracek was. Voracek had produced seasons of 38, 50, and 46 points in his three seasons; Burmistrov has 28 career points. Burmistrov, as a defensive forward, is better positionally and around the net; Voracek was much better around the boards and in the physical department.

Carter was traded for what was universally regarded as a discount, and had a reputation as an off-ice headache and someone who came up small in big games. Whether either of those is deserved isn't something I'm getting into, but that was the perception.

Basically, two superior pieces were traded to get a player lesser than Nash, at a discount. Enstrom is the difference. That's how I see it anyway.

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05-21-2012, 05:33 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
Unfortunately this won't be the "Final" Nash thread. It will be another thread to rehash what has been offered, maybe been offered, would never be offered and how awesome or crapy Nash or his contract may be. At this point it's believed that Boston, Toronto, NYR, San Jose and Vancouver are on his "list". There have been mumblings (probably HF talk or CBJ fan wishes) of Philly and Los Angeles being potential options and then there are a couple teams that are likely great fits for the demands of Scott Howson but don't appear to be on the list (Ottawa, Washington)

The CBJ appear to be looking for a young top 6 forward or top 4 d-man, a top prospect or two and a 1st round pick. Clearly that wasn't offered at the deadline and with the NYR playing as well as they have in the playoffs I suspect they don't sweeten the pot and are likely out. Personally, I think Ottawa is an ideal fit from a CBJ standpoint (not that Ottawa is pushing for Nash). They have the young players, a deep prospect pool and a mid level 1st that could likely be moved. Nash likely pushes them into the next level of team with a potential shot at the cup sooner rather than later and balances their scoring. Moot point if he won't waive or they aren't interested.

Nash gets moved but until the GM's start to ramp up the talks before the draft we really have no idea. Nash has been a great Franchise Face for Columbus. The team has been average in the best years and he's had little to play with. He'll get a nice return but I don't see players like Couture, Kreider, Seguin, etc. being part of the deal unless it's something even bigger than just Nash. Columbus does have a very good defensive prospect pool but little else to offer of significance at this point.

I wish this were the last thread but alas, it's just another....
This is the closest to what is the overall picture.

1.
Quote:
Unfortunately this won't be the "Final" Nash thread.
We can get to a realistic middle (and thus final thread) if everybody agrees on certain givens:

a) Nash wants out.
b) Nash can't exclusively control where he goes.
c) Nash can't be dumped wherever CBJ wishes.
d) This is because Nash may be compelled to report (setting aside what rights he may have to a limited trade list, notwithstanding); but he does not have to bust his butt, only go through the motions.
e) Nash is also on a big contract; yes it's long; but it is not cheap. Yeah, it's not a rip-off, but it's not a bargain either.

2. The balance of #1 above means Howson will take the best offer, but the best offer will not be ANYWHERE near the ridiculous and excessively exorbitant price he has previously continued to demand.

3.
Quote:
The CBJ appear to be looking for a young top 6 forward or top 4 d-man, a top prospect or two and a 1st round pick. Clearly that wasn't offered at the deadline and with the NYR playing as well as they have in the playoffs I suspect they don't sweeten the pot and are likely out.
I don't doubt other teams, in an abstract vacuum, offer more. But given the above, and the ability of Nash to ultimately signal how much he is willing to put out, no one will overpay, and the Rangers better not overpay.

What is fair? If he were a Restricted Free Agent, what is the max these days?
I think it's 4 future 1sts.

If I am Rangers, I offer Dubinsky and 4 guaranteed conditional 2nds, each of which has the ability to become a 1st, provided for each of those 4 years Nash meets certain availability and production targets. If Nash is injured, Rangers are on the hook for the (remaining) 2nds, but not an automatic 1st upgrade for each.

Since this is ballpark to what RFA would be, I contend this is fair.
It is the closest parallel to the actual.
If Nash were actual RFA, he would walk, and something close to what I described, without Dubinsky, is the most that can be hoped for.
This is a little bit extra for both clubs.

Quote:
Nash gets moved but until the GM's start to ramp up the talks before the draft we really have no idea. Nash has been a great Franchise Face for Columbus. The team has been average in the best years and he's had little to play with. He'll get a nice return but I don't see players like Couture, Kreider, Seguin, etc. being part of the deal unless it's something even bigger than just Nash.
Yeah, Kreider is going nowhere, and I wouldn't give him up for Nash straight up.
Dubi + the picks would be it.
Someone also said maybe Stepan. I could see Stepan and a throw in and lose all or most of the picks.

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05-21-2012, 05:33 PM
  #93
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Yup, Nash has been "average" except for one year....he's only a 7-time 30-goal scorer and has twice hit 40. Neither Krejci nor Peverley has hit 25 in their careers a single time; Peverley has hit 15 only once.

What's the value of Tim Thomas? He's 38, is most likely declining, and is a $5 million cap hit even if he retires (35+ contract). Moving him allows Rask to step in as the starter and Khudobin as the backup, clears a huge amount of salary, and allows the Bruins the chance to either re-up their own guys or else make a serious run in free agency.
I like Rick Nash. It's possible some other team would pay that particular price for Nash. Boston (more specifically Peter Chiarelli) is not that team. Trading two centers for a wing runs counter to his M.O. thus far, and being short centers was one of the things that caused our collapse in the 2010 playoffs.

The organization (although sometimes not the fans) loves Krejci. I think you'd likely find that Chiarelli wouldn't put much of a plus on him to get Nash at all, nevermind Peverley, Thomas, and a 1st, and in reality, the way Julien runs his lines, it makes sense, it's probably that Nash wouldn't get the ice time here that would justify that kind of outlay in talent and cap hit.

My mindset is that Boston will likely look to make a deal similar to the one that returned Nathan Horton in the summer of 2010, rather than any kind of blockbuster.

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05-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #94
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Not all are on the "list" but I think the CBJ would ask (and likely do) something along the lines of the following (maybe add a pick from CBJ):

NYR - Stepan, Erixon/Sauer, Miller, 1st (Only give up one roster player and futures unless Sauer is part of the deal - injury concern) ..............

I'm sure this will be met with brimstone and fire. Likely there needs to be a salary dump in some cases but I was attempting to express what I think the CBJ would be looking for and might have a chance of completing a deal. These are the types of pieces I think the CBJ will be asking for.

Getting is another issue.
Quote:
Stepan, Erixon/Sauer, Miller, 1st (Only give up one roster player and futures unless Sauer is part of the deal - injury concern)
Reasonable, but NYR has upper hand (pls note prior post) and will not gut so many blue chip futures on ELCs they need for 1 big contract, even if he's a great player.

It's a lot to hope for, but there is thought that Miller might be a "Kreider lite".
I would be open minded about Sauer, but like you say, there is big injury ?.
The other Ds are not surplus and are needed (besides, Blue Jackets D developing nicely.)

No, like it or not, it will be some variation of something like :
Dubi/Stepan + picks.
A guy like Christian Thomas might be a throw-in, but that's about it.

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05-21-2012, 07:48 PM
  #95
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And the fans in Columbus aren't going to tolerate trading Rick Nash in exchange for a bunch of futures, particularly if there's no real immediate help. The exception would be if it's someone who's about to break out.
I think this is a good point. I also think they need to be careful with someone they feel is ready to break out, the pressure of being the key figure in a deal for Nash should probably not be thrust on a young player.

This is why I feel like Vancouver is an option. With Luongo or Schneider as the centrepiece of a deal you have someone that can a) make the kind of impact fans might expect and b) handle the situation. There is obviously more to be worked out in a deal (would Luongo go there? Would Schneider sign?) and more pieces to add but that looks like the best start to a deal of all that I've seen in these threads.

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05-21-2012, 07:50 PM
  #96
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05-21-2012, 07:52 PM
  #97
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Not in Montreal thank God and thats all that matters.

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05-21-2012, 08:07 PM
  #98
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I would like Rick Nash in Toronto. Not for Jake Gardiner though.

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05-21-2012, 08:08 PM
  #99
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Not in Montreal thank God and thats all that matters.


You don't need to worry, the Habs don't have the assets to acquire Nash.

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05-21-2012, 08:11 PM
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Not in Montreal thank God and thats all that matters.
Would love to see Nash on the Habs, a potential 40+ goal to have alongside Pacioretty for the next decade would be AMAZING.

I think the Jackets would have interest in Plekanec as well, in any return. Despite his older age.

Plekanec, Leblanc, Yannick Weber and Montreal's 2012 2nd round pick
for Nash

Who says no to that deal? Other than Nash?

I seriously get a tingly feeling on my insides at the thought of Nash and Pacioretty flanking Desharnais next season with a 2nd line of Gionta-Eller-Cole

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