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Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-21-2012, 12:54 PM
  #351
VanSciver
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Eh in certain stats he is good while in others not so much. You dont pay a crazy amount of money for a #3 defender
Which stats specifically is he not so good at? And Carle is worth every bit of 5M on the open UFA market. And that would not be a crazy amount of money. It would be fair market value.

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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
kind of like the myth that the Carle lovers would think the Flyers D would be doomed without him.

I haven't ready anyone state that the Flyers would be doomed without Carle, myself included. But feel free to point out where someone has said that.

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05-21-2012, 12:59 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Which stats specifically is he not so good at? And Carle is worth every bit of 5M on the open UFA market. And that would not be a crazy amount of money. It would be fair market value.




I haven't ready anyone state that the Flyers would be doomed without Carle, myself included. But feel free to point out where someone has said that.
no one has come right and said it. Just read between the lines of some around here.

If you think Carle is worth 5 million on the open market then the Flyers are likely to give him 6-6.5 just to keep him off the market if they chose to resign him which is too much. Nevermind the fact that would come with a limited/full NTCsince Holmgren always feels obligatged to give away.
I refuse to believe anything Holmgren said about "negotiations" as anything more then lip service.

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05-21-2012, 01:03 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
I'm not the greatest guy in the World in understanding advanced statistics. But in terms of Corsi O of C. That is determined by the offensive talent that a player faces as a defenseman, correct? So does it consider the defensive ability that a player faces? Because it's a question of how a player is used. And a player should be measured both in terms of offensive and defensive situations when determining how a player is used.
Think of Corsi as a puck possession stat. Corsi is the shot differential when a player is on ice. It includes all shots directed at net (missed shots and blocked shots) instead of just shots on goal. So a player with a positive Corsi will be spending more time in the offensive zone (more shots directed at net) while a player with a negative Corsi is getting stuck in their own end (more shots against).

So Corsi QoC is simply just the average Corsi of the opposing players a player is facing. So a higher QoC means their opponents are good at spending time in the offensive zone.

BUT as with any stat you have to put them into proper context. Corsi Relative is one tool to help put it into context. It essentially helps you see their value to a team. Corsi Relative is the Corsi when a player is on the ice minus the team Corsi when they are off the ice. For example Briere's Corsi on the ice is -0.7, but the team Corsi with him off is +2.37 so his Corsi relative is -3.1. The team's Corsi is -3.1 worse with Briere.

So Corsi Rel QoC is the Corsi Relative of the opponents. Grossmann's opponents had a higher Corsi, but they were much less valuable to their team as we saw with their Corsi Rel QoC.

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05-21-2012, 01:03 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I just don't understand why people feel the need to get rid of someone who is a good #3 defender on this team. I feel like he is the Jeff Carter of our defense. He is a good player, but because he doesn't fit the ideal mold of a Flyers defender people treat him as if he is a glorified depth defenseman and can't wait to dump him. It doesn't make sense to me especially when everything factual points to him being much better than most realize.
As I have consistently said, the blind haters are as misinformed or uneducated as the ridiculous defenders of Matt Carle. Your parallel to Jeff Carter is pretty just in that some people loved him, many hated him, and the real view, as usual is somewhere in the middle.

I think the majority of people would want Matt Carle back at the right price. The question is truly what is the right price and how does it impact the ability of our team to fill out a roster. Asking a simpleton question like the poll here is going to cause a whole lot more confusion/misconception. I would suggest that many more people want Matt Carle back than don't, but it all comes down to fair market value. I am simply suggesting that I'd sooner pay Suter 6.5M per than Carle 5.5M per.... If Suter were 7M and Carle were 4.5M or less, I might feel very differently.

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05-21-2012, 01:07 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
I refuse to believe anything Holmgren said about "negotiations" as anything more then lip service.
I interpreted Holmgren's comments about Carle a little differently. I truly believe he wants to keep Matt Carle.... at below "market value". If it gets to 5+M, the Flyers very likely look elsewhere.

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05-21-2012, 01:20 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
no one has come right and said it. Just read between the lines of some around here.

If you think Carle is worth 5 million on the open market then the Flyers are likely to give him 6-6.5 just to keep him off the market if they chose to resign him which is too much. Nevermind the fact that would come with a limited/full NTCsince Holmgren always feels obligatged to give away.
I refuse to believe anything Holmgren said about "negotiations" as anything more then lip service.
Your right, no one has said it. And no one has come close to saying it. That's your misrepresentation and exaggeration of what is being said.

As far as the rest of it. Doesn't make a lot of sense. And Holmgren uses his words carefully when talking about player moves. His language and the terms he used certainly suggests that there is a good chance Carle is coming back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Think of Corsi as a puck possession stat. Corsi is the shot differential when a player is on ice. It includes all shots directed at net (missed shots and blocked shots) instead of just shots on goal. So a player with a positive Corsi will be spending more time in the offensive zone (more shots directed at net) while a player with a negative Corsi is getting stuck in their own end (more shots against).

So Corsi QoC is simply just the average Corsi of the opposing players a player is facing. So a higher QoC means their opponents are good at spending time in the offensive zone.

BUT as with any stat you have to put them into proper context. Corsi Relative is one tool to help put it into context. It essentially helps you see their value to a team. Corsi Relative is the Corsi when a player is on the ice minus the team Corsi when they are off the ice. For example Briere's Corsi on the ice is -0.7, but the team Corsi with him off is +2.37 so his Corsi relative is -3.1. The team's Corsi is -3.1 worse with Briere.

So Corsi Rel QoC is the Corsi Relative of the opponents. Grossmann's opponents had a higher Corsi, but they were much less valuable to their team as we saw with their Corsi Rel QoC.
Thanks for the explanation.

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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
As I have consistently said, the blind haters are as misinformed or uneducated as the ridiculous defenders of Matt Carle. Your parallel to Jeff Carter is pretty just in that some people loved him, many hated him, and the real view, as usual is somewhere in the middle.

I think the majority of people would want Matt Carle back at the right price. The question is truly what is the right price and how does it impact the ability of our team to fill out a roster. Asking a simpleton question like the poll here is going to cause a whole lot more confusion/misconception. I would suggest that many more people want Matt Carle back than don't, but it all comes down to fair market value. I am simply suggesting that I'd sooner pay Suter 6.5M per than Carle 5.5M per.... If Suter were 7M and Carle were 4.5M or less, I might feel very differently.
I agree. If the numbers are right, I would want Suter over Carle. But as you said, it the value of the player versus the cost.

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05-21-2012, 02:10 PM
  #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
As I have consistently said, the blind haters are as misinformed or uneducated as the ridiculous defenders of Matt Carle. Your parallel to Jeff Carter is pretty just in that some people loved him, many hated him, and the real view, as usual is somewhere in the middle.

I think the majority of people would want Matt Carle back at the right price. The question is truly what is the right price and how does it impact the ability of our team to fill out a roster. Asking a simpleton question like the poll here is going to cause a whole lot more confusion/misconception. I would suggest that many more people want Matt Carle back than don't, but it all comes down to fair market value. I am simply suggesting that I'd sooner pay Suter 6.5M per than Carle 5.5M per.... If Suter were 7M and Carle were 4.5M or less, I might feel very differently.
This is true for any player, but people don't always feel the need to point it out for other players.

I simply see a lot of blind hatred for Carle with few recognizing his true value. It's even worse than Carter in the sense that the Carle defenders are far and few between and they are openly mocked. I think some of it has to do with the fact that data for defenders is much harder to come by so all people has is their own eyes, but the problem with that is people view things through their own biases as we see with the Carter hatred.

We now have advanced stats to prove Carle's worth, but they aren't readily accepted and people tend to shrug off anything that doesn't agree with their biases in the first place.

We are paying $4M to our 5th defender. My guess is most people don't understand what the fair market value is for a #3 defenseman about to hit free agency.

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05-21-2012, 02:24 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
This is true for any player, but people don't always feel the need to point it out for other players.

I simply see a lot of blind hatred for Carle with few recognizing his true value. It's even worse than Carter in the sense that the Carle defenders are far and few between and they are openly mocked. I think some of it has to do with the fact that data for defenders is much harder to come by so all people has is their own eyes, but the problem with that is people view things through their own biases as we see with the Carter hatred.

We now have advanced stats to prove Carle's worth, but they aren't readily accepted and people tend to shrug off anything that doesn't agree with their biases in the first place.

We are paying $4M to our 5th defender. My guess is most people don't understand what the fair market value is for a #3 defenseman about to hit free agency.
It really is refreshing to read commentary by someone that truly understands the game and can make an informed opinion on a player objectively.

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05-21-2012, 03:07 PM
  #359
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Lotta folks are gonna be disappointed.

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05-21-2012, 03:08 PM
  #360
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Lotta folks are gonna be disappointed.
Yep with really long and overpaid contract Homer will give out.

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05-21-2012, 03:11 PM
  #361
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Yep with really long and overpaid contract Homer will give out.
Likely the day before free agency, so he doesn't even make an attempt at Suter.

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05-21-2012, 03:23 PM
  #362
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Likely the day before free agency, so he doesn't even make an attempt at Suter.
And the day after we resign Leighton and extend Shelly.

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05-21-2012, 03:42 PM
  #363
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And the day after we resign Leighton and extend Shelly.
perhaps we could try to get back "mr. high n wide" to ???


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05-21-2012, 04:40 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Yep with really long and overpaid contract Homer will give out.

The Carle contract is going to be a solid deal at a reasonable Cap hit and term. Which will lock up a solid player for the Flyers for the near future. What's not to like?

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05-21-2012, 04:43 PM
  #365
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The Carle contract is going to be a solid deal at a reasonable Cap hit and term. Which will lock up a solid player for the Flyers for the near future. What's not to like?
You never know with Holmgren. It might be solid and reasonable. Or, it might be insane. It's hard to predict.

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05-21-2012, 04:43 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You never know with Holmgren. It might be solid and reasonable. Or, it might be insane. It's hard to predict.
I'm hoping the fact he isn't resigned yet is he's going to test the market

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05-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
You never know with Holmgren. It might be solid and reasonable. Or, it might be insane. It's hard to predict.
I don't think it's going to be insane. Holmgren was pretty clear in specific language that Carle's demands are reasonable and even slightly below market value.

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I'm hoping the fact he isn't resigned yet is he's going to test the market
Don't think so. Holmgren said that he hasn't been signed yet only due to tagging issues. Once next year's Cap is officially announced, it should get done.

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05-21-2012, 04:49 PM
  #368
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Holmgren says lots of things.

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05-21-2012, 04:50 PM
  #369
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Homer says a lot of things

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05-21-2012, 04:52 PM
  #370
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Homer says many things.

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05-21-2012, 04:53 PM
  #371
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lol

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05-21-2012, 05:01 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Holmgren says lots of things.
Yes he does. And his words are calculated and cautious. And it was obvious by what he said that the odds of Carle returning are pretty high. When a GM says that he doesn't think the team will have an issue retaining Carle, that means the likelihood of the player returning is high.

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05-21-2012, 05:04 PM
  #373
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I recall that he was confident he'd get Leino re-signed. I wouldn't put loads of stock into media sound bites.

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05-21-2012, 05:06 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I recall that he was confident he'd get Leino re-signed. I wouldn't put loads of stock into media sound bites.
The language Holmgren used in talking about Leino was completely different. Odds are very strong of Carle coming back.

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05-21-2012, 05:10 PM
  #375
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The language Holmgren used in talking about Leino was completely different. Odds are very strong of Carle coming back.
http://phillysportsdaily.com/flyers/...will-get-done/

Reading that one would have assumed Leino would be signed.

Were gonna look at things, Holmgren said. I continue to say, trying to re-sign Ville, which we are. Well continue to look and see what we can do.

I still believe what Ive been saying all along: Ville wants to stay here and we want him here. "


Like I said...Holmgren says lots of things.

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