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Was the UDSSR the most dominating hockey power the world ever witnessed

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Old
05-21-2012, 05:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Vladiator16 View Post
Fan=fanatic, draw your own conclusions, Fulcrum
Doesn't mean that people can't have respect and humility instead of jealousy.

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05-21-2012, 05:14 PM
  #77
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But you cheated by TRICKING us into thinking you were no where near as good as you were.
lol you got us there

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05-21-2012, 05:15 PM
  #78
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I am not sure what you mean. Canada can't win EVERYTIME. But again, since 2000, Best on Best, Canada has won 3 of 4.
Not bad for a country of 30M.
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
I thought it was a pretty simple question.

And what does population have to do with it? Haven't we been over this like 30M times?
I am not sure what you mean. Every country makes up excuses. When Russia lost to Canada in 2010, I heard endless excuses from Russian posters.

When the U.S. finished the WJR's in 7th, I heard endless excuses.

I can't speak to what others write. All I know is, Best on Best since 2000, Canada has won 3 of 4.

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05-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
But you cheated by TRICKING us into thinking you were no where near as good as you were.
If that is what you consider cheating, then every opponent Canada ever faces is automatically a cheat. Because you Canadians always think your opponent is nowhere near as good as you are, no matter who the opponent is. So you make all the opponents cheat on you all of the time.

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05-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Doesn't mean that people can't have respect and humility instead of jealousy.
Again, I can't speak for other posters but Russia is my 2nd favourite team. It is a DISTANT 2nd but it is still 2nd.

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05-21-2012, 05:17 PM
  #81
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On the one side you have some Soviet homers who claim it's "common knowledge" that the Canadian referees handed Canada the win in the 1984 and 1987 Canada Cup. On the other side you have Canadian homers wo claim it's "common knowledge" that the Soviets cheated their way to IIHF Championships. I don't like the former nor the latter.
I don't care what the Soviet homers think. Any true hockey fan can watch those Canada Cups and know that they were won fair and square. It was absolutely fabulous hockey to watch.

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I'm well aware of that. That's the reason one can't consider the 1960s USSR teams the best in the world. Because the best Canadians actually left the amateur and pseudo-amateur sphere and became professional, while the best Europeans remained in the amateur and pseudo-amateur realm. Unfortunate circumstances for Canada, for sure, and not a fair comparison. But "Soviet cheating"? It was a result of different historical development in North America and Europe. The IIHF (=the Europeans including the Soviets) were actually inclined to gradually allow professionals into the World Championships in the 1960s, but the IOC vetoed the move. Surely some shady IOC official from Eastern Europe was the driving force behind that? Well, the driving force was Mr. Avery Brundage of Chicago! "Soviet cheating"?
The USSR would not have won all those Olympics and World Championships if Canada was sending it's best players. Their "dominance" is tainted at more than one level.

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Just like Soviet homers don't give Canadians, those blatant cheaters, any respect for what they achieved in the Canada Cup. You should really found a friendship comittee or a club or something, because you got so much in common.
Canadians didn't cheat, USSR did. There is a big defference when using facts versus some jaded jealousy driven allegations.

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05-21-2012, 05:18 PM
  #82
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Again, I can't speak for other posters but Russia is my 2nd favourite team. It is a DISTANT 2nd but it is still 2nd.
we'll leave it at that then

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05-21-2012, 05:19 PM
  #83
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If that is what you consider cheating, then every opponent Canada ever faces is always a cheat. Because you Canadians always think your opponent is nowhere near as good as you are, no matter who the opponent is. So you make all the opponents cheat on you all of the time.
I disagree. I see Canadians eating their own. Canadians are vicious to our players when we lose and we are full of self doubt before tournaments.

But other countries also need to give us credit for being such a small country and yet producing such a huge number of great players.

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05-21-2012, 05:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
excellent excuse and explanation.

Canadian mentality:
We'll agree to play you. And it's totally OK that we lose. Here is a list of excuses...

Lol, here's one- Canadian win in 1972 doesn't count as they cheated by breaking an ankle of our best player. So, whatever..
Using club results to argue national ability over national team results just seems like a bit of a stretch considering how much the dispersal of club players varied between the two systems.

The best indicator of the depth and ability of the Soviet hockey program was right after communism fell and every Soviet trained player who could get a job abroad did so. There were some great Soviet players, but very few in numbers, and not even close to those from Canada.

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05-21-2012, 05:20 PM
  #85
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we'll leave it at that then
Fair enough. I am off. Be well Fulcrum et all.


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05-21-2012, 05:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
Few people were sent their, but most of them developed in CSKA. And yes, it was a hub, but it still wasn't a full NT.

I'm just curious to know: WHY, WHY does Canada have an excuse for EVERY LOSS?

Have you ever admitted that Canada lost because they weren't the best? Honestly, I have yet to see it from fans. I've seen it from professionals who are in the sport- because they understand, but some fans are just blinded.
How is stating an obvious reality (that the best Canadian players weren't allowed to play on the Olympic teams) making excuses? It might not have been a full NT, but it was pretty damn close. And none of the NHL clubs that CSKA beat at the time were anything close to a Canadian national team.

That's a fact. When the best played one another, like the Canada Cup, Canada won. Sorry that this seems to bother a few Russian posters. Just stating the facts, I'll leave the interpretations to others.

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05-21-2012, 05:22 PM
  #87
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I don't care what the Soviet homers think. Any true hockey fan can watch those Canada Cups and know that they were won fair and square. It was absolutely fabulous hockey to watch.
Fabulous hockey? Canada against the Soviets you mean? I thought the Soviets were nothing but cheaters, but now you're suggesting they could actually play hockey? Paint me confused.

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The USSR would not have won all those Olympics and World Championships if Canada was sending it's best players.
No doubt. Calling it "cheating" seems like some jaded jealousy driven allegation though.

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05-21-2012, 05:25 PM
  #88
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Canada is probably the best of the best in Hockey but when you take in account that Canada has 100 times the numbers of registered hockey players than Russia (600 000 vs 60 000) and then you compare that to their respective record of achievements. You just sit down and give credit where its due.


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05-21-2012, 05:28 PM
  #89
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Fabulous hockey? Canada against the Soviets you mean? I thought the Soviets were nothing but cheaters, but now you're suggesting they could actually play hockey? Paint me confused.
It was fabulous hockey because of the Canadians that were playing.

But on a more serious note I never said the USSR didn't have some great players and good teams. Sure they cheated, as everyone knows, but that doesn't mean the end result didn't end with the USSR still losing but just by not as bad as if they hadn't of cheated. They cheated to try and compete and it almost worked for them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
No doubt. Calling it "cheating" seems like some jaded jealousy driven allegation though.
Like I said when one side does cheat and the other side does not cheat a direct comparison can not be drawn.

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05-21-2012, 05:31 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Canada is probably the best of the best in Hockey but when you take in account that Canada has 100 times the numbers of registered hockey players than Russia (600 000 vs 60 000) and then you compare that to their respective record of achievements. You just sit down and give credit where its due.
last time I checked 600 vs 60 is a factor of 10 not 100. Keep in mind that the Soviets primary focus was their national team so if you are basing you appreciation on national team results then you have to realize it will be slanted that way.

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05-21-2012, 05:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Preisst View Post
It was fabulous hockey because of the Canadians that were playing.

But on a more serious note I never said the USSR didn't have some great players and good teams. Sure they cheated, as everyone knows, but that doesn't mean the end result didn't end with the USSR still losing but just by not as bad as if they hadn't of cheated. They cheated to try and compete and it almost worked for them.




Like I said when one side does cheat and the other side does not cheat a direct comparison can not be drawn.
Don't believe everything you read. Usage of Steroids has probably been more important in North American Sports the last 30 years than anywhere in the world.

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05-21-2012, 05:32 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Yuri the Fury View Post
Canada is probably the best of the best in Hockey but when you take in account that Canada has 100 times the numbers of registered hockey players than Russia (600 000 vs 60 000) and then you compare that to their respective record of achievements. You just sit down and give credit where its due.

Maybe they don't have as many registered players cuz of how disorganized the entire country is? I don't know about you but I don't give any of their supposed "official" organizations much credibility at all.

Besides that Canadas being better then them has gotten into their pschye and they don't want to even try to take us on anymore cuz they know we're gonna win so they sign up for other sports they might have a chance in

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05-21-2012, 05:33 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Preisst View Post
Maybe they don't have as many registered players cuz of how disorganized the entire country is? I don't know about you but I don't give any of the their supposed "official" organizations much credibility at all.

Besides that Canadas being better then them has gotten into their pschye and they don't want to even try to take us on anymore cuz they know we're gonna win

No, you just can't give credit, that's all man. Homer.

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05-21-2012, 05:33 PM
  #94
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Best on best, Russia/the USSR's record is not strong.



Weren't CSKA and Dynamo a collection of the best players in Russia? Weren't they built/designed to be All-Star teams within their leagues?
All the best players were sent to those clubs to play together, against the world, while also playing within the league.
As a Russophile and a hockey fan I have to admit that there was a lot of fishy stuff going on in the old CCCP. Firstly there was the "league" which consisted of a couple of totally stacked teams like Red Army, Dynamo Moscow (apparently the local KGB team?), the Soviet Wings (airforce team) all of whom were able to cherry pick guys like Igor Larionov from the weaker teams by the simple expedient of drafting them iinto the Red Army (or Air force). So the CSKA team almost always was far and away the best team in the league with Dynamo and the Wings in the mix while teams like Khimik brought up the bottom of the pack for years.

As for the "amateur" tag that too is fishy. These guys did nothing else for 50 weeks of the year but train and play hockey and were paid as members of the armed forces although I'm betting not a one of these players ever fired a shot in anger. Pretty much everybody in the hockey world was aware of this inconsistency but the powers that be ignored it because there was the fear that the USSR would simply boycott all IIHF events which would have been the less desireable result.

As for steroids I feel it is a saw off; sure the Eastern bloc was notorious for using performance enhancing drugs but so was the NHL for quite some time. I never heard of a man dressing for a women's team though (which acually happened in East Germany IIRC with some track athletes).

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05-21-2012, 05:34 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Preisst View Post
But on a more serious note I never said the USSR didn't have some great players and good teams. Sure they cheated, as everyone knows, but that doesn't mean the end result didn't end with the USSR still losing but just by not as bad as if they hadn't of cheated. They cheated to try and compete and it almost worked for them.
As everyone in Canadian-homer-land knows, perhaps. Just curious, did they cheat in the Canada Cup?

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05-21-2012, 05:35 PM
  #96
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Don't believe everything you read. Usage of Steroids has probably been more important in North American Sports the last 30 years than anywhere in the world.
If that is the case then it's probably because the dominant player in the steroid world, the USSR, ceased to exist 30 years ago.

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05-21-2012, 05:38 PM
  #97
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last time I checked 600 vs 60 is a factor of 10 not 100. Keep in mind that the Soviets primary focus was their national team so if you are basing you appreciation on national team results then you have to realize it will be slanted that way.
Those are IIHF numbers from October, 2011. And it's been that way forever. Hockey is the sport number 1 in Canada, not in Russia.

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05-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #98
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In international tournaments where there was an amateur status restriction, Russian ice hockey players were inducted into the military, did zero military service and played hockey every day for blocs of time that would have made North American players weep, it was so strenuous. Those were professionals in all but name.

In other tournaments, in which teams were allowed to bring their best, the Canadians for one reason or another were not sending their best. This is chiefly true of the World Championships, which have traditionally been scheduled to proceed after the European leagues end play, but the NHL is still in the midst of its playoffs.

In play during which they had no competition, the USSR dominated all comers. The Canadians sent lesser teams.

In play during which both countries sent their best, the hockey was tremendous. No one dominated.

You can have a spirited argument about the strength of the respective teams when both sent their best.

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05-21-2012, 05:40 PM
  #99
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No, you just can't give credit, that's all man. Homer.
They get all the credit they deserve and then some. Marge.

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As everyone in Canadian-homer-land knows, perhaps. Just curious, did they cheat in the Canada Cup?
Read post #94.

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05-21-2012, 05:47 PM
  #100
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As for the "amateur" tag that too is fishy. These guys did nothing else for 50 weeks of the year but train and play hockey and were paid as members of the armed forces although I'm betting not a one of these players ever fired a shot in anger. Pretty much everybody in the hockey world was aware of this inconsistency but the powers that be ignored it because there was the fear that the USSR would simply boycott all IIHF events which would have been the less desireable result.
Was that a CCCP speciality though? Do you think "amateurs" were really "amateurs" in Western and Central Europe? In Sweden and Finland, for example?

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As for steroids I feel it is a saw off; sure the Eastern bloc was notorious for using performance enhancing drugs but so was the NHL for quite some time.
Don't you dare to lump together the good upright Canadian boys with the sinister Commies!

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If that is the case then it's probably because the dominant player in the steroid world, the USSR, ceased to exist 30 years ago.
You should pick up a history book every once in a while. 30 years ago?

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Read post #94.
I did. To quote: "Sure the Eastern bloc was notorious for using performance enhancing drugs but so was the NHL for quite some time." Those cheaters in the NHL!

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