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FINAL: Where does Nash end up?

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Old
05-21-2012, 07:12 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
I would like Rick Nash in Toronto. Not for Jake Gardiner though.
i'm fine with the 5th and Schenn plus something...many other CBJ fans are not and are set on it being for something with Gardiner included...

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05-21-2012, 07:12 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post


You don't need to worry, the Habs don't have the assets to acquire Nash.
The Habs could easily acquire Nash. Hell the Jackets would probably take Pacioretty and a 2nd rounder for Nash.

THe Habs at this time couldn't logically trade for Nash and be a better team though, that's true. Doesn't mean they don't have the assets for it. In fact if he was willing to waive and Bergevin was wanting to make a big splash there aren't many teams in the league that could offer up the type of return Columbus would want.

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05-21-2012, 07:13 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
i'm fine with the 5th and Schenn plus something...many other CBJ fans are not and are set on it being for something with Gardiner included...
The "something" would have to be something of immense value, because the cost to move from 5th to 1st, especially in a draft which apparently after the number 1 guy is very questionable about who is the best from anywhere between 2nd and 20th, is far higher than Luke Schenn.

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05-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
i'm fine with the 5th and Schenn plus something...many other CBJ fans are not and are set on it being for something with Gardiner included...
If Howson didn't blow up at the trade deadline, I would say your demand would have been possible. The Nash situation has worked against the Columbus organization. I think they will be very lucky to land anything close to a top 5 pick and a good prospect. Let alone the 5th, a good prospect and more.

We'll have to wait and see but I think they'll get 80 cents on the dollar.

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05-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post


You don't need to worry, the Habs don't have the assets to acquire Nash.
Don't worry the Habs are not about to give up valuable assets for a 70 pt 8mil dollar player. The Jackets can keep him.

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05-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #106
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I think this is a good point. I also think they need to be careful with someone they feel is ready to break out, the pressure of being the key figure in a deal for Nash should probably not be thrust on a young player.

This is why I feel like Vancouver is an option. With Luongo or Schneider as the centrepiece of a deal you have someone that can a) make the kind of impact fans might expect and b) handle the situation. There is obviously more to be worked out in a deal (would Luongo go there? Would Schneider sign?) and more pieces to add but that looks like the best start to a deal of all that I've seen in these threads.
You say "Luongo and Schneider", but I disagree strongly that they have similar or even comparable value. That's the beauty of the salary cap.

In Luongo, there's a known commodity signed to a known contract until the day he retires. He's a damned good goalie, and if Schneider ends up at close to Luongo's level over the next few years, that'll be a huge bonus. Schneider, despite all the hype and how he's looked in more limited duty, is 26 and still has less than 100 NHL games under his belt.

So it's counterintuitive to suggest that the unknown guy has more value than the known guy...and yet that's exactly the situation. I think (as an outside observer) that Vancouver has made up their mind that one of those two is not coming back next year, and that they're being evasive enough to trigger a massive bidding war and a massive return on Schneider. This would make it palatable to keep Luongo, if first-round picks and good young players are the return. And I think that Vancouver has made up their minds that Luongo is not the guy to carry them to a title, but a strong enough team in front of him might still bring a Cup to the Pacific coast without him needing to dominate.

If I were in the GM's chair in Columbus, I'd target Luongo and Luongo alone. I'd make one single "take it or leave it" offer, and it would be very limited in scope. Rick Nash would not be involved, the 2nd overall pick would not be involved, Ryan Johansen would not be involved. The value would be grossly disproportionate to the point of insulting, and there would have to be a tough decision made in Vancouver whether to make the deal simply to go with Schneider/Lack, clear some salary, and alleviate the Luongo headache...unspoken would be the ability to fall back on a possible disappointing season with "Schneider is a first-year starter and he isn't yet all the way there", and if it does work out then the vindication is enough.

The reality is that Vancouver does not hold the cards or the leverage on goalies. It's widely known that Tampa and Toronto are looking for goalies...there are some mid-range UFAs, plus the possibility of Tim Thomas being made available. There may be European goalies coming over. But there are more potential high-level starters than there are teams that need high-level starters. Were I the GM, it wouldn't matter if Gillis agrees, hangs up the phone, and calls me a jerk. It wouldn't matter if he publicly says it. It doesn't matter if he deals with the criticism by calling me every name in the book...my job would be to get the best deal for my team possible, and if he literally hates me because of it, T.S.

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05-21-2012, 07:16 PM
  #107
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I think the Rangers will get him
Not a chance.

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05-21-2012, 07:17 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
The "something" would have to be something of immense value, because the cost to move from 5th to 1st, especially in a draft which apparently after the number 1 guy is very questionable about who is the best from anywhere between 2nd and 20th, is far higher than Luke Schenn.
i'd like to think "most" CBJ fans are a bit more realistic in their expectations than other fans are over their draft pick...

i honestly don't know enough about the Leafs to say what I think fair "something" is...I think the 5th and Schenn is a strong basis...but then again, I have hopes of turning that #5 + around for Bobby Ryan

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05-21-2012, 07:18 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
The Habs could easily acquire Nash. Hell the Jackets would probably take Pacioretty and a 2nd rounder for Nash.

THe Habs at this time couldn't logically trade for Nash and be a better team though, that's true. Doesn't mean they don't have the assets for it. In fact if he was willing to waive and Bergevin was wanting to make a big splash there aren't many teams in the league that could offer up the type of return Columbus would want.
Montreal's expendable assets are far less impressive than most teams in the Nash sweepstakes.

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05-21-2012, 07:21 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
i'd like to think "most" CBJ fans are a bit more realistic in their expectations than other fans are over their draft pick...

i honestly don't know enough about the Leafs to say what I think fair "something" is...I think the 5th and Schenn is a strong basis...but then again, I have hopes of turning that #5 + around for Bobby Ryan
I don't really get your first comment.

People seem to think the Jackets are compelled to trade Nash, at the end of the day the Jackets can simply tell him they don't have a deal out there for him and his options are:

Play out your contract like an overpaid pig slob and not care becuase you didn't get your way
or
Play some inspired hockey and let the cards fall how they may.

Considering Nash is a guy who has made the NHL and had an unbelievably successful career, averaging 35 goals per 82 games played and having a pretty decent shot at having 450 goals in his career as well as any playoff success that may come still I don't see him acting like a complete moron. I also doubt their relationship is so tattered that they couldn't come back from this.

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05-21-2012, 07:23 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Montreal's expendable assets are far less impressive than most teams in the Nash sweepstakes.
Lol, if you say so man.

I'm sure you're the type of person who can give a reliable unbiased opinion the Habs too right?

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05-21-2012, 07:29 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I don't really get your first comment.
then I missed your point to begin with on what trading Nash has to do with the 1st overall...i thought you were just taking a swipe at EDM fans, I was joking with that

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05-21-2012, 07:31 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Montreal's expendable assets are far less impressive than most teams in the Nash sweepstakes.
I can think of many better ways of spending 8 mil than to trade for Nash

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05-21-2012, 07:31 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Fro View Post
then I missed your point to begin with on what trading Nash has to do with the 1st overall...i thought you were just taking a swipe at EDM fans, I was joking with that
Oh no, wasn't taking a swipe at EDM fans. Sorry

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05-21-2012, 07:34 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
I can think of many better ways of spending 8 mil than to trade for Nash
It's shocking to me how much people trash on a guy who has played on teams that have so consistently been bereft of any top line players other than Nash. He's literally the only legitimate 1st liner they've ever have and they have never at any point had a high end d-man capable of moving the puck 22+ minutes a night.

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05-21-2012, 07:37 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
It's shocking to me how much people trash on a guy who has played on teams that have so consistently been bereft of any top line players other than Nash. He's literally the only legitimate 1st liner they've ever have and they have never at any point had a high end d-man capable of moving the puck 22+ minutes a night.
I put you in this list.

people will always be blinded by Nash's "potential" rather than the actual results that he put up.

8 mil a season 9yrs -once more than 70 pts.
Don't want him near the Habs.

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05-21-2012, 07:37 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Lol, if you say so man.

I'm sure you're the type of person who can give a reliable unbiased opinion the Habs too right?
Although I'm not a fan of the drive-by comment, I think what he says is true.

Montreal's top assets, as I see them, are:
- 3rd overall pick
- Louis Leblanc
- Nathan Beaulieu
- Jarred Tinordi
- Brendan Gallagher
- Lars Eller
- Max Pacioretty
- Josh Gorges
- PK Subban
- Carey Price

Price, Pacioretty, and Gorges are probably all off the table. With having traded McDonagh, I doubt there's a strong inclination to move defensemen prospects. But the forward prospects or current forwards is not a strong group...Leblanc and Eller probably aren't going anywhere, which would leave Gallagher. Gauthier and Gainey made a mess out of the forwards, so the availability of any of them is unknown. They've got a lot of cash tied up in a small number of players, including over $10 million for two non-producers in Gomez and Bourque.

You know what I'd do if I were Columbus? Offer cap relief. I'd take on Gomez and one of those pieces above for a middling return. That would give Montreal almost $30 million in cap space next year, and with 11 pending RFAs on the current NHL roster, that's as good as gold.

The Gomez contract is dead weight...it would almost have to be moved in order to have enough space to keep the RFAs as well as handle Nash's contract. But to take on that much of an albatross would substantially alter the returning pieces. Dare I say it makes a deal unworkable.

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05-21-2012, 07:40 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
I put you in this list.

people will always be blinded by Nash's "potential" rather than the actual results that he put up.

8 mil a season 9yrs -once more than 70 pts.
Don't want him near the Habs.
Well, we all know the $7 million-plus contracts in Montreal are all reserved for guys who don't score goals, so....

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05-21-2012, 07:43 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Although I'm not a fan of the drive-by comment, I think what he says is true.

Montreal's top assets, as I see them, are:
- 3rd overall pick
- Louis Leblanc
- Nathan Beaulieu
- Jarred Tinordi
- Brendan Gallagher
- Lars Eller
- Max Pacioretty
- Josh Gorges
- PK Subban
- Carey Price

Price, Pacioretty, and Gorges are probably all off the table. With having traded McDonagh, I doubt there's a strong inclination to move defensemen prospects. But the forward prospects or current forwards is not a strong group...Leblanc and Eller probably aren't going anywhere, which would leave Gallagher. Gauthier and Gainey made a mess out of the forwards, so the availability of any of them is unknown. They've got a lot of cash tied up in a small number of players, including over $10 million for two non-producers in Gomez and Bourque.

You know what I'd do if I were Columbus? Offer cap relief. I'd take on Gomez and one of those pieces above for a middling return. That would give Montreal almost $30 million in cap space next year, and with 11 pending RFAs on the current NHL roster, that's as good as gold.

The Gomez contract is dead weight...it would almost have to be moved in order to have enough space to keep the RFAs as well as handle Nash's contract. But to take on that much of an albatross would substantially alter the returning pieces. Dare I say it makes a deal unworkable.
If you look at every team and the assets they have that they'd be willing to move are no better than what the Habs would be willing to offer.

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05-21-2012, 07:48 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
I put you in this list.

people will always be blinded by Nash's "potential" rather than the actual results that he put up.

8 mil a season 9yrs -once more than 70 pts.
Don't want him near the Habs.
Good, I'll put you on the list of people who have no understanding of how a players linemates can affect their scoring totals, not to mention how overall forward depth and quality of d-men can affect scoring totals.

The only time players on bad teams can put up huge numbers are situations like Bure in Florida several years ago, and Kovalchuk in early Atlanta days but in Bure's case he was one of the BEST goal scorers ever and played no defence, and in Kovalchuk's case he had Heatley (as well as some other pretty quality players) on the team and he also didn't play defence.

Nash might not ever win a Selke trophy but his overall game is pretty solid, and averaging the point totals Nash does while not being a total defnesive liability and looking at some of those rosters it's actually pretty impressive.

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05-21-2012, 07:49 PM
  #121
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So far i think i am the only fan in Toronto that hopes he won't be a Leaf. And I stand by that statement. I don't care where he goes. Just hope it is not Toronto!
My money is on the Rangers or Sharks

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05-21-2012, 07:52 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
If you look at every team and the assets they have that they'd be willing to move are no better than what the Habs would be willing to offer.
In a vacuum, I'd agree.

What makes Montreal unique is that they don't have a real middle ground. Most teams' most productive players are between 25-29, with some older players still producing and some younger guys who will break through soon.

Montreal doesn't have that. They have a lot of money tied up in the high end of the age spectrum, and they're not getting production. Gomez is only the most visible, but Bourque's not producing, Cole is well on in years, Kaberle, Gionta, and Markov are all past their prime and still getting huge paydays.

So what it does is create this situation where there's a big premium on the younger players. Pacioretty and Desharnais aren't going anywhere because they can't go anywhere; they'd be looking at an extremely high-paid top line next year that is all on the far side of 30. They can't trade Subban or Beaulieu because one is currently producing and one will be soon, which is vital because Kaberle and Markov aren't going to be around much longer.

It's not a question of whether Montreal has better or worse pieces. It's that they've really painted themselves into a corner, and moving the young pieces that Columbus would want would cripple the franchise for years to come because they just cannot replace those players....the old guys would log huge minutes, and the remaining young prospects and players aren't there yet. Montreal has pieces, but they can't be made available.

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05-21-2012, 07:57 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Lol, if you say so man.

I'm sure you're the type of person who can give a reliable unbiased opinion the Habs too right?
Montreal prospects of value...

Louis Leblanc
Nathan Beaulieau
Jared Tinordi
Brendan Gallagher

Montreal roster players of value (to Columbus)...

Carey Price (RFA)
P.K Subban (RFA)
Max Pacioretty
Josh Gorges (NTC in 2012/13)
Lars Eller
Alexei Emelin (RFA)
David Desharnais

Other assets:

1st in 2012 (3rd overall)
2nd in 2012 (32nd overall)
2nd in 2012 (51st overall)
1st in 2013
2nd in 2013
2nd in 2013 (Calgary)
2nd in 2013 (Nashville)

The lack of depth in the organization makes it hard to move multiple significant assets for Montreal right now. In a couple years when the draft picks are coming to form, they'll be able to make a move like this. Quantity in picks looks to be their plan. But having a bunch of 2nd rounders is never a bad problem.

I just don't see any combination of players that could come close to what teams like New York, San Jose and Toronto could offer. There are good players but Columbus is in a unique situation. I don't think Kostitsyn is even an option and a guy like Erik Cole is not going to wave his NTC to go to the BJ's.

Subban is a restricted free agent and he could essentially nix a trade before it can take place. Realistically, Subban isn't going to agree to sign with Columbus in order to accommodate a trade for any team.

Unless it's for $8M+ per season and long term. Which is a drastic overpayment.

Pacioretty is a very good young player and those picks are enticing. Other than thatm Montreal can't compete in the Rick Nash sweepstakes.

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05-21-2012, 07:58 PM
  #124
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I'm confused...what exactly do you think San Jose would be willing to offer that the Jackets would want?

Considering how every Sharks fan has said there's no way Couture is going anywhere and the Sharks have nothing of young high end value other than him.

Same with the Leafs and the Rangers...what is the high end stuff these teams would be willing to move for Nash that's so much more valuable than what Montreal would?

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05-21-2012, 08:05 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I'm confused...what exactly do you think San Jose would be willing to offer that the Jackets would want?

Considering how every Sharks fan has said there's no way Couture is going anywhere and the Sharks have nothing of young high end value other than him.

Same with the Leafs and the Rangers...what is the high end stuff these teams would be willing to move for Nash that's so much more valuable than what Montreal would?
Yeah, I suppose San Jose doesn't have much else if they're not willing to move Couture.

According to Capgeek, neither Havlat, Burns or Clowe have NTC's.

That doesn't sound right.

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