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Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
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Old
05-21-2012, 05:10 PM
  #376
RoDu
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He brought in Lappy to be a faceoff specialist

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05-21-2012, 05:12 PM
  #377
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He brought in Lappy to be a faceoff specialist
Yes, and Jody Shelley is a solid guy with 3rd line potential.

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05-21-2012, 05:16 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
http://phillysportsdaily.com/flyers/...will-get-done/

Reading that one would have assumed Leino would be signed.

Were gonna look at things, Holmgren said. I continue to say, trying to re-sign Ville, which we are. Well continue to look and see what we can do.

I still believe what Ive been saying all along: Ville wants to stay here and we want him here. "


Like I said...Holmgren says lots of things.
No, you've misinterpreted the comments. All the quotes are saying there from Holmgren is that we want to re-sign Leino, and that they are trying to get it done. He stopped short of saying that he doesn't see getting Leino being a problem, and that his demands are reasonable and even below market value. As he said about Carle.

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05-21-2012, 05:23 PM
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
No, you've misinterpreted the comments. All the quotes are saying there from Holmgren is that we want to re-sign Leino, and that they are trying to get it done. He stopped short of saying that he doesn't see getting Leino being a problem, and that his demands are reasonable and even below market value. As he said about Carle.
Homer says he wants Leino, and that Leino wants to be there.

Where is Leino now?

What does that say about the reliability of Holmgren's sound bites? When it comes to Homer's media quotes, I choose to believe them when they actually come to pass.

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05-21-2012, 05:36 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The Carle contract is going to be a solid deal at a reasonable Cap hit and term. Which will lock up a solid player for the Flyers for the near future. What's not to like?
the fact its Carle..

other then that nothing.

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05-21-2012, 06:13 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Homer says he wants Leino, and that Leino wants to be there.

Where is Leino now?

What does that say about the reliability of Holmgren's sound bites? When it comes to Homer's media quotes, I choose to believe them when they actually come to pass.
The comments he made about Leino were distinctly different. And based on the comments made, looking back. It's not a surprise that Leino wasn't retained.

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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
the fact its Carle..

other then that nothing.
Which means what? LOL

Retaining a quality player is always a good thing. Especially to a reasonable deal.

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05-21-2012, 06:16 PM
  #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
The comments he made about Leino were distinctly different. And based on the comments made, looking back. It's not a surprise that Leino wasn't retained.
“I still believe what I’ve been saying all along: Ville wants to stay here and we want him here. "

Which part of that in retrospect indicates it was clear he wouldn't be signed? Taking everything Holmgren says publicly as firm proof that something will certainly occur isn't wise..

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05-21-2012, 06:23 PM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
“I still believe what I’ve been saying all along: Ville wants to stay here and we want him here. "

Which part of that in retrospect indicates it was clear he wouldn't be signed? Taking everything Holmgren says publicly as firm proof that something will certainly occur isn't wise..
It's pretty easy to tell by the language what the situation was. Leino did want to stay in Philly. And the Flyers did want to keep him. But Leino had his price and the Flyers had theirs. The comments made by Holmgren on the Leino situation are distinctly different then the ones made on the Carle situation. And it was also clear that the odds are good when Holmgren flatly states that Carle's demands are reasonable and even below market value, and he doesn't see a problem getting it done. And even mentions that tagging space is the reason why a deal isn't already done.
And your misrepresenting what I've said. I've said that the odds are very good that Carle is returning. Not that it will certainly occur.

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05-21-2012, 06:29 PM
  #384
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Fair enough.

My point is, nobody should be surprised if Carle isn't back next year even after these comments. If Holmgren has a shot at Suter and thinks he can get him, and Carle's new cap hit interferes with his plans...I don't see him sticking around. At the least, I don't expect him to be signed until Holmgren has ruled Suter out as an impossibility.

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05-21-2012, 06:33 PM
  #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
I still believe what Ive been saying all along: Ville wants to stay here and we want him here. "

Which part of that in retrospect indicates it was clear he wouldn't be signed? Taking everything Holmgren says publicly as firm proof that something will certainly occur isn't wise..
yea cuz his batting ave. with "its a virus" is always 100%..

hahaah

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05-21-2012, 06:33 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Fair enough.

My point is, nobody should be surprised if Carle isn't back next year even after these comments. If Holmgren has a shot at Suter and thinks he can get him, and Carle's new cap hit interferes with his plans...I don't see him sticking around. At the least, I don't expect him to be signed until Holmgren has ruled Suter out as an impossibility.
Your right. A deal such as a trade could present itself that Holmgren feels is a better deal. A lot can happen between now and then, and at the draft. As we saw in the Richards and Carter trades, minds and the direction the team wants to take, can change. I don't think the signing of Carle would prevent the Flyers from taking a run at Suter. If he is the team's target, the Flyers will do whatever they feel is neccessary to get it done.

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05-21-2012, 07:30 PM
  #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
http://phillysportsdaily.com/flyers/...will-get-done/

Reading that one would have assumed Leino would be signed.

Were gonna look at things, Holmgren said. I continue to say, trying to re-sign Ville, which we are. Well continue to look and see what we can do.

I still believe what Ive been saying all along: Ville wants to stay here and we want him here. "


Like I said...Holmgren says lots of things.
I think Holmgren sounded a lot more non-committal there.

He's basically saying. It would be nice to have him back, but we'll see what happens.

He sounds more specific about Carle.

"I think Matt had a good year. He's up there in numbers and Matt's a good defensemen. I've said that before, if Matt wants to be here, we'd like to have him back. I don't see any reason why we can't work out a deal. We're in a position now where we cant sign him because of tagging space but this is something that could be done quickly, I think. His demands, when I spoke with him and his agent, nothing was ever out of line. Could we get him under market value? I would say that we probably could. So I don't see any issues there. "

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...-paul-holmgren

He sounds a lot more optimistic about getting something done.

That said, to me it is telling that he made sure to lock up Coburn and Grossmann first so I don't think he saw Carle as a priority. I definitely won't be surprised if he leaves.

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05-21-2012, 08:23 PM
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraLupin


Originally Posted by VanSciver
No, Suter is not better in everything over Carle. Carle is a better point producer at Even Strength.


--You should check the talent Suter has had to work with his whole career--


Originally Posted by VanSciver
not a player who is going to eliminate people off the puck physically. But neither is Suter


--YES SUTER DOES--


Originally Posted by VanSciver
Suter isn't significantly better there (puck battles)


--Have you actually watched some Nashville games?--.


Originally Posted by VanSciver
By the way, Bourdon is no where near the caliber of defenseman that Carle is. And in making that statement, it shows a clear bias towards Carle.


--I think u are the one showing clear bias for Carle here..--


Originally Posted by VanSciver
No question that Suter is a better point man and has a better shot then Carle does. That's really the biggest difference between the two players.


--Sigh, you should really try to catch 20 games of Suter next season, wherever he goes--


Originally Posted by VanSciver
Also Nashville doesn't have the defensive depth that the Flyers have.[/I]


--HAHAHA, that's a good one there...--


Ryan Suter
Shea Weber
Kevin Klein
Hal Gill
Francis Bouillon
Roman Josi*
Ryan Ellis*
Jack Hillen
Jonathon Blum*


VERSUS


Braydon Coburn
Matt Carle
Kimmo Timonen
Nicklas Grossmann
Andrej Meszaros
Marc-Andre Bourdon*
Erik Gustafsson*
Andreas Lilja
Pavel Kubina



It really is refreshing to read commentary by someone that truly understands the game and can make an informed opinion on a player objectively.

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05-21-2012, 08:33 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
It really is refreshing to read commentary by someone that truly understands the game and can make an informed opinion on a player objectively.

What specific comments did you find in that, that you feel is on point and objective. I'd love to here about it.

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05-21-2012, 09:19 PM
  #390
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I think there's an obvious disconnect between the Carle fanboys and the Carle haters...Carle fans will cite statistics to support their case and, while there are less such supportive statistics for Carle detractors to cite (though there are some), I think there are things that just don't show up in stats, like, how often does Carle fail to take the body against an attacker coming into the defensive zone or along the boards? How many times does he turn the puck over, in dangerous areas, deep in the zone making them potentially more damaging than other types of turnovers? How many times does Carle fail to battle/defend adequately against someone in the slot? How many times does Carle shoot right into an opposing player from the point, and how many times does the play go the other way because of it? How many times does Carle fail to take open ice in front of him on the breakout when the opportunity presents itself?

These are just a few examples of things that you can't really quantify with stats, but still count as a factor in Carle's play. Of course, no player is perfect and many besides Carle are guilty of some of these same things, but there is a body of evidence that one can see from watching Carle play that indicates these deficiencies are there. Im sure the Carle defenders tend to deny, discount and excuse these things away, saying things like "all players make mistakes" and such, but still, I can understand why many have grown frustrated with seeing these things occur over and over, where you doubt the player's ability to learn and overcome them, and you can lose confidence in him as a player you want on your team...with each Carle turnover or time he fails to take the body, especially those that contribute to a goal against, the frustration grows. If you think about it, you don't really see these types of things as often with other players on the team. So, I think it's understandable why some have come to want Carle off the Flyers. But I think for many, the issue now isn't so much that they don't want Carle on the team, but rather it's the money he will command and the role he's going to play on the team that is at issue. If one merely looked at these stats that all the Carle-Aid drinkers parade out...minutes played, ES performance, Corsi etc. and drew comparisons with some of the best D men in the NHL, one could easily think Carle is a #1 D man worth abut 6-7 million on the open market...but the reality you get from watching him game in and game out makes you realize that he has some deficiencies that knock that value down a couple notches. That's why I have been putting a value of $4.5 million/yr on him as fair value I'd pay, and I wouldn't mind having him stay on the team if he signs for that or less. That said, if Suter is a landable upgrade, I'd pay an extra 2 million/yr (AAV) for him, even if it meant letting Carle (at $4.5 million) walk. There are a number of variables here that may lead the Flyers to sign one player or another, so we'll have to see how it all shakes out. Pronger and his status is, of course, still a big looming factor. At this point you just have to hope Homer and co. end up doing what's best for the team, and I have confidence they will.


Last edited by fauxflex: 05-21-2012 at 09:24 PM. Reason: grammar
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05-21-2012, 09:37 PM
  #391
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I think there's an obvious disconnect between the Carle fanboys and the Carle haters...Carle fans will cite statistics to support their case and, while there are less such supportive statistics for Carle detractors to cite (though there are some), I think there are things that just don't show up in stats, like, how often does Carle fail to take the body against an attacker coming into the defensive zone or along the boards? How many times does he turn the puck over, in dangerous areas, deep in the zone making them potentially more damaging than other types of turnovers? How many times does Carle fail to battle/defend adequately against someone in the slot? How many times does Carle shoot right into an opposing player from the point, and how many times does the play go the other way because of it? How many times does Carle fail to take open ice in front of him on the breakout when the opportunity presents itself?
The problem with the Carle detractors such as yourself is that they try to invent ways to justify their opinion. Which really isn't based on any of the facts. They ignore the facts completely, or try to invent ways to minimize the facts. And why do you do that? Because the facts say you're wrong. And they try to amplify the mistakes the player makes to be much bigger then they are. Such as your doing here. The examples you give are the minority in his play, not the majority. The fact is that Carle is a solid player in his own end. All the facts support that.

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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
These are just a few examples of things that you can't really quantify with stats, but still count as a factor in Carle's play. Of course, no player is perfect and many besides Carle are guilty of some of these same things, but there is a body of evidence that one can see from watching Carle play that indicates these deficiencies are there. Im sure the Carle defenders tend to deny, discount and excuse these things away, saying things like "all players make mistakes" and such, but still, I can understand why many have grown frustrated with seeing these things occur over and over, where you doubt the player's ability to learn and overcome them, and you can lose confidence in him as a player you want on your team...with each Carle turnover or time he fails to take the body, especially those that contribute to a goal against, the frustration grows. If you think about it, you don't really see these types of things as often with other players on the team. So, I think it's understandable why some have come to want Carle off the Flyers. But I think for many, the issue now isn't so much that they don't want Carle on the team, but rather it's the money he will command and the role he's going to play on the team that is at issue. If one merely looked at these stats that all the Carle-Aid drinkers parade out...minutes played, ES performance, Corsi etc. and drew comparisons with some of the best D men in the NHL, one could easily think Carle is a #1 D man worth abut 6-7 million on the open market...but the reality you get from watching him game in and game out makes you realize that he has some deficiencies that knock that value down a couple notches. That's why I have been putting a value of $4.5 million/yr on him as fair value I'd pay, and I wouldn't mind having him stay on the team if he signs for that or less. That said, if Suter is a landable upgrade, I'd pay an extra 2 million/yr (AAV) for him, even if it meant letting Carle (at $4.5 million) walk. There are a number of variables here that may lead the Flyers to sign one player or another, so we'll have to see how it all shakes out. Pronger and his status is, of course, still a big looming factor. At this point you just have to hope Homer and co. end up doing what's best for the team, and I have confidence he will.
The so called Carle-Aid drinkers deal in the facts. Which again you're trying to minimize in a fantasy World in which you ignore the facts. You accuse the Carle supporters of describing Carle as a #1 defenseman worth 6-7M as you portray him as a mistake prone player with many deficiencies, that would seem to indicate that the player should be a low minute 3rd pair defenseman. Your description of Carle as a player is simply innacurate. With these so called mistakes that you say are happening over and over. Why is the Coaching staff continuing to show trust in him and playing him 23-25 minutes a game? Why would they play a mistake prone player who according to you can't play well on an attacking player coming down the Wing, can't cover the crease. And turns the puck over in dangerous areas? Why doesn't the Coaching staff see what you see? And yea, your right, the rest of the team doesn't make any defensive mistakes as often as Carle does. It's just Carle that does it often. And that's just another piece of evidence that shows your complete lack of objectivity towards Carle as a player. You can't find a single credible NHL analyst at any level that backs your opinion on Carle. And I have confidence that Holmgren will do what's best for the team. And that includes re-signing Matt Carle


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-21-2012 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Grammar.
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05-21-2012, 10:40 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by MJL
The problem with the Carle detractors such as yourself is that they try to invent ways to justify their opinion. Which really isn't based on any of the facts. They ignore the facts completely, or try to invent ways to minimize the facts. And why do you do that? Because the facts say you're wrong. And they try to amplify the mistakes the player makes to be much bigger then they are. Such as your doing here. The examples you give are the minority in his play, not the majority. The fact is that Carle is a solid player in his own end. All the facts support that.



The so called Carle-Aid drinkers deal in the facts. Which again you're trying to minimize in a fantasy World in which you ignore the facts. You accuse the Carle supporters of describing Carle as a #1 defenseman worth 6-7M as you portray him as a mistake prone player with many deficiencies, that would seem to indicate that the player should be a low minute 3rd pair defenseman. Your description of Carle as a player is simply innacurate. With these so called mistakes that you say are happening over and over. Why is the Coaching staff continuing to show trust in him and playing him 23-25 minutes a game? Why would they play a mistake prone player who according to you can't play well on an attacking player coming down the Wing, can't cover the crease. And turns the puck over in dangerous areas? Why doesn't the Coaching staff see what you see? And yea, your right, the rest of the team doesn't make any defensive mistakes as often as Carle does. It's just Carle that does it often. And that's just another piece of evidence that shows your complete lack of objectivity towards Carle as a player. You can't find a single credible NHL analyst at any level that backs your opinion on Carle. And I have confidence that Holmgren will do what's best for the team. And that includes re-signing Matt Carle

I know what I've seen with my own eyes...nothing you can say or any facts you can cite can convince me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing. I have no agenda to run Carle out of town, so I have no reason to make up lies about him. I'm sure many people here have seen these very same things I mentioned...and I didn't even mention his lack of prowess on the powerplay.

Carle is a good player at his salary...I and many other observers are concerned about some of the things we see as deficiencies in his game that sometimes hurts the team...this limits his value and the role he should be playing (until he proves otherwise) on a contending team. You can choose to ignore or discount the negative aspects of his game if that suits you, but it does nothing for your already suspect credibility.

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05-21-2012, 10:59 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I know what I've seen with my own eyes...nothing you can say or any facts you can cite can convince me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing. I have no agenda to run Carle out of town, so I have no reason to make up lies about him. I'm sure many people here have seen these very same things I mentioned...and I didn't even mention his lack of prowess on the powerplay.

Carle is a good player at his salary...I and many other observers are concerned about some of the things we see as deficiencies in his game that sometimes hurts the team...this limits his value and the role he should be playing (until he proves otherwise) on a contending team. You can choose to ignore or discount the negative aspects of his game if that suits you, but it does nothing for your already suspect credibility.
ur wasting ur breath..

guys that like Carle wont ever come around.

this will all hopefully end when the flyers/Carle part company.

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05-22-2012, 07:15 AM
  #394
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I know what I've seen with my own eyes...nothing you can say or any facts you can cite can convince me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing. I have no agenda to run Carle out of town, so I have no reason to make up lies about him. I'm sure many people here have seen these very same things I mentioned...and I didn't even mention his lack of prowess on the powerplay.

Carle is a good player at his salary...I and many other observers are concerned about some of the things we see as deficiencies in his game that sometimes hurts the team...this limits his value and the role he should be playing (until he proves otherwise) on a contending team. You can choose to ignore or discount the negative aspects of his game if that suits you, but it does nothing for your already suspect credibility.
You should've mentioned his lack of prowess on the PP. Because that would be another comment that I could easily refute with facts that was made by you. With every post, you move further and further away from the facts. Why is that? And believe me. My agenda isn't to convince you otherwise about Carle. I know that that's simply not possible. Because there has to be objectivity for that to happen.

Since you brought up credibility, let's look at that further. When talking about Suter versus Carle. I've mentioned areas where I think Suter is better then Carle. I've even said that I think that Suter is a better player then Carle. Not by a lot, but better. I've also admitted and spoke about the shortcomings of Carle's game. What have you said about Carle. What areas of his game is he real strong at according to you? Nothing. In fact your most recent description of Carle, would suggest that he should be a 3rd pair low minute player, with all of the so called deficiencies in his game, that you see with your own eyes. Instead of the mentioning the qualities that make him a 23-25 minute NHL defenseman who can play in all situations. Which the Flyers Coaching staff thinks that he is.
And here's the kicker of them all. A statement made by you, that Suter is better in every area over Carle. So let's look at some areas and see if the facts support that. And we'll look at 2 Seasons to have a big enough sample of games. In the last two Seasons Carle has scored 64 points at ES play, and blocked 321 shots in that period. Suter has scored 40 ES points and blocked 200 shots in that time frame. So clearly Carle is the better point producer at ES play, and the far better shot blocker then Suter is. So how can your opinion that Suter is better in every area be credible? I've used facts that everybody has access to, the prove your lack of credibility. Now go ahead and use facts to prove my lack of credibility. Good luck.

So to summarize, one of us, myself, is willing to look at both players objectively, and give credit to both for the things they do well, and the areas where one is better then the other. As well, as a Carle supporter, fully acknowledge that Suter is the better player.
You on the other hand, gives Carle little credit for anything other then just being a good player. Fails to take the facts into consideration that have been given through this entire thread. Such as the basic stats, advanced stats, his use on the ice, etc. That all point to Carle being a very good 2 way NHL defenseman. Who plays big minutes, and plays in all situations. And is a reliable solid defender in his own end.
So whose credibility is suspect? LOL

And not to mention the fact that you've failed repeatedly to provide a single credible source that reinforces your opinion on Carle as a player, that I've asked you to provide on multiple occasions. While I can provide, and have provided, numerous credible opinions that reinforce my opinion. So again, whose credibility is suspect?

I've been waiting very patiently for you and the other Carle bashers to provide some facts, and prove your stance. You haven't done it. Why, because you're simply wrong, and you can't do it. End of story.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-22-2012 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Grammar
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05-22-2012, 08:25 AM
  #395
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Carle's proponents have done plenty to epxlain their view of Carle's positives. I have said he's a good player at his salary and, unlike others, don't have a big issue with his presence on the team, so obviously I don't disagree there are some good things he does. In my posts I have tried to address those who seem to focus predominantly on the positives and I feel, overrate Carle in doing so. So, with that in mind, I have posted about some of the negatives. Again, many of the things I bring up cannot be quantified with statistics but can bee seen by keen observers.

Tell me, have you seen Carle do any of the following:

- fail to take the body against an attacker coming into the defensive zone or along the boards when the situation calls fo it?
- turn the puck over, in dangerous areas, deep in the zone
- fail to battle/defend adequately against someone in the slot?
- shoot right into an opposing player from the point
- fail to take open ice in front of him on the breakout when the opportunity presents itself?



Also, I tried to ask you this before, if Carle grades out as "elite" at ES play, and all these stats you've cited, and is apparently comparable to other players that are #1 type D men, and he is the top minute getter on the team, then why shouldn't he be the Flyers #1 d man?


Last edited by fauxflex: 05-22-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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05-22-2012, 08:47 AM
  #396
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Of course Suter's ES point production will be lower, he is playing in Nashville!

Their system doesn't invoke high end offensive production like ours does.

That being said, Suter is exactly the kind of guy we need who could fit into a high octane system, while at the same time playing more responsible than the majority of guys we currently have.

Id sure as hell rather pay 6.5-7 per year for Suter over 4.5-5 for Carle.

Suter is a #1 guy, something we don't have, or at least one that isn't on the brink of retirement

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05-22-2012, 09:01 AM
  #397
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Carle's proponents have done plenty to epxlain their view of Carle's positives. I have said he's a good player at his salary and, unlike others, don't have a big issue with his presence on the team, so obviously I don't disagree there are some good things he does. In my posts I have tried to address those who seem to focus predominantly on the positives and I feel, overrate Carle in doing so. So, with that in mind, I have posted about some of the negatives. Again, many of the things I bring up cannot be quantified with statistics but can bee seen by keen observers.

Tell me, have you seen Carle do any of the following:

- fail to take the body against an attacker coming into the defensive zone or along the boards when the situation calls fo it?
- turn the puck over, in dangerous areas, deep in the zone
- fail to battle/defend adequately against someone in the slot?
- shoot right into an opposing player from the point
- fail to take open ice in front of him on the breakout when the opportunity presents itself?
And you've failed miserably time and again to justify and back up your stance that Carle is overrated. And again failed today.

Yes, I have seen Carle do all of that. I have also seen every Flyers defenseman do the same thing. As well as every other defenseman I've seen play in the NHL. No player is mistake free. And Carle is not a mistake free player. Do I honestly need to explain that to you? If I do then it is a bigger problem then I thought it is. But what it's really about is how often mistakes happen. And how reliable a player is. And don't bother responding saying that those mistakes happen often. Because if they did, you know where it would show up? In the facts. In the advanced stats and other stats. And in how a team uses a player. So here we are, going around in the same circle. There's a reason why you can't quantify it . Because you're wrong!


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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
Also, I tried to ask you this before, if Carle grades out as "elite" at ES play, and all these stats you've cited, and is apparently comparable to other players that are #1 type D men, and he is the top minute getter on the team, then why shouldn't he be the Flyers #1 d man?
I've answered this numerous times. Carle isn't a #1 Defenseman. And I have never said that he is. Nor have I ever stated that Carle is comparable to players that are #1 defenseman. ES play is one part of the game. A true #1 such as Chara, Weber, Lidstrom, are elite in all factors. Carle is not in their League. And I've also stated repeatedly that Carle is a #2 NHL defenseman. Carle if he's back, we'll continue to be a leader in ES ice time for the Flyers. Because he is a very strong player in ES play. Who has in the past put up elite numbers at ES play. That's a fact. One that you can't dispute.

You also neglected to adress numerous points I made in my previous post that goes to credibility.


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Originally Posted by Codith View Post
Of course Suter's ES point production will be lower, he is playing in Nashville!

Their system doesn't invoke high end offensive production like ours does.

That being said, Suter is exactly the kind of guy we need who could fit into a high octane system, while at the same time playing more responsible than the majority of guys we currently have.

Id sure as hell rather pay 6.5-7 per year for Suter over 4.5-5 for Carle.

Suter is a #1 guy, something we don't have, or at least one that isn't on the brink of retirement











Nashville was ranked 8th in the NHL at 2.83 goals a game. Fleyers scored 3.17 goals a game. Nashville isn't a slouch as an offensive team. And I disagree that Suter is a legitimate #1 defenseman. I think the biggest things that Suter would bring to the Flyers that is a definite need, is as a PP QB and a shot from the point. But I have doubts that Suter will be worth what he will command on the open market. Suter is a very good player that I would be happy to have. But it's about the cost.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-22-2012 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Multi quote compliance
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05-22-2012, 09:16 AM
  #398
Larry44
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
Fair enough.

My point is, nobody should be surprised if Carle isn't back next year even after these comments. If Holmgren has a shot at Suter and thinks he can get him, and Carle's new cap hit interferes with his plans...I don't see him sticking around. At the least, I don't expect him to be signed until Holmgren has ruled Suter out as an impossibility.
Right. Holmgren was clear he wants to re-sign Carle and that a deal should be doable. Obviously, like Leino, if Carle gets a stupid offer he can't refuse, he'll go elsewhere.

What do you expect Holmgren to say, in either case?

How would you be reacting if he said, 'Well, we're looking at the list of UFAs and trying to decide if we can upgrade on Carle. If we can't, then we'll try to sign him, unless he decides to wait until July 1 and then gets a ridiculous offer from Buffalo, in which case we can't afford the cap hit."

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05-22-2012, 09:24 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Yes, I have seen Carle do all of that. I have also seen every Flyers defenseman do the same thing. As well as every other defenseman I've seen play in the NHL. No player is mistake free. And Carle is not a mistake free player. Do I honestly need to explain that to you? If I do then it is a bigger problem then I thought it is. But what it's really about is how often mistakes happen. And how reliable a player is. And don't bother responding saying that those mistakes happen often. Because if they did, you know where it would show up? In the facts. In the advanced stats and other stats. And in how a team uses a player. So here we are, going around in the same circle. There's a reason why you can't quantify it . Because you're wrong!

---

I've answered this numerous times. Carle isn't a #1 Defenseman. And I have never said that he is. Nor have I ever stated that Carle is comparable to players that are #1 defenseman. ES play is one part of the game. A true #1 such as Chara, Weber, Lidstrom, are elite in all factors. Carle is not in their League. And I've also stated repeatedly that Carle is a #2 NHL defenseman. Carle if he's back, we'll continue to be a leader in ES ice time for the Flyers. Because he is a very strong player in ES play. Who has in the past put up elite numbers at ES play. That's a fact. One that you can't dispute.

----

Nashville was ranked 8th in the NHL at 2.83 goals a game. Fleyers scored 3.17 goals a game. Nashville isn't a slouch as an offensive team. And I disagree that Suter is a legitimate #1 defenseman. I think the biggest things that Suter would bring to the Flyers that is a definite need, is as a PP QB and a shot from the point. But I have doubts that Suter will be worth what he will command on the open market. Suter is a very good player that I would be happy to have. But it's about the cost.
Good points all the way through.

If Timonen is still considered a #1, then Carle and Coburn are our 2/3 Dmen, esp. when ice time is factored in. Grossman and Meszaros are next, and all very close.

I don't see a problem signing Carle and going with this group of 5, esp. with able players like Gus or MAB and Lilja to fill out the 6-7 slots. If Carle or Suter is signed, Gus or MAB will probably be dealt, as they won't be able to be recalled without waivers and they won't pass next year.

I really don't think Suter will be available to the Flyers, so waiting on him and losing Carle too could be disastrous. Suter will either re-up with the Preds or sign with a team with more cap room to give him $7.5M/yr over 8-10 years. Are Flyer fans prepared to beat that, given the other holes it would create to make the cap room?

Better to sign Carle early, and then see what happens next year, as we might be able to use Kimmo's money, and Hartnell's for that matter if he walks, to sign Weber.

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05-22-2012, 09:34 AM
  #400
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
And you've failed miserably time and again to justify and back up your stance that Carle is overrated. And again failed today.

Yes, I have seen Carle do all of that. I have also seen every Flyers defenseman do the same thing. As well as every other defenseman I've seen play in the NHL. No player is mistake free. And Carle is not a mistake free player. Do I honestly need to explain that to you? If I do then it is a bigger problem then I thought it is. But what it's really about is how often mistakes happen. And how reliable a player is. And don't bother responding saying that those mistakes happen often. Because if they did, you know where it would show up? In the facts. In the advanced stats and other stats. And in how a team uses a player. So here we are, going around in the same circle. There's a reason why you can't quantify it . Because you're wrong
I have seen Carle do the things I've mentioned with more frequency than others....and nothing you say can change that fact. Let's agree to disagree.

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