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2012 Offseason Thread II: The Offseasoning

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Old
05-21-2012, 10:26 PM
  #26
glovesave_35
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Originally Posted by Mr Misty View Post
I meant more that most people around here (I think) don't expect him to be back, and you want to make him captain.

You have hit on the problem that the team doesn't have much in the way of future captain material. I think Benn is more of a situation where the best player gets the C, although he could be a fine captain someday.
Yeah, I know what you mean. I guess I either expect him to just not be back at all or if he does come back to have a larger piece of the leadership pie.

I think Benn is absolutely captain material and not in a de facto sort of way. The reason I'd rather he not be named captain right now isn't because I don't think he can do the job but because I'd rather limit his responsibility as a 22-23 year old player to being the best player on the team for the time being.

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05-21-2012, 10:50 PM
  #27
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I played with Souray's advanced stats in a previous thread somewhere, but instead of digging it up I'll just say I agree with glovesave that Souray is a decent option to return ... even though Gaglardi didn't sound too interested recently.

There are two big things that must happen for this to work though, IMO. It's been mentioned, but you can't have Robidas and Souray on this team together. The next thing is you've got to make sure Gully doesn't play him like a #1 D. The guy should be getting a heavy dose of ES and PK time ... that's it.

In most cases, bigger guys aren't that mobile and they can get walked. That happened to Souray some. Overall though, and despite playing top lines which was probably a mistake ... or Dallas' best option however you want to look at it ... Souray was still good as a defender.

Since I'm pessimistic about Dallas' chances of landing Suter, they should only be looking at short term options unless it's a top pairing D they are acquiring via trade. I doubt you'll get anyone significantly better than Souray for less money in free agency and a trade cost assets.

I do believe a two-year deal would make both the team and player happy. Dillon replaces Robidas this year, and Nemeth could replace Fistric the following year. Oleksiak replaces Souray. It works out perfectly IMO, and Souray is going to miss time. He's aggressive and older, and those things don't lead to 82 game seasons. It's a great opportunity to give Oleksiak and Nemeth a taste of the NHL whenever Souray needs rest and recovery.

Unless you've somehow convinced Suter or even Schultz to choose Dallas, it's not the worst decision to bring him back. Like I said though, I hate it if Robidas is still around though.

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05-21-2012, 10:55 PM
  #28
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Oh ... and regarding the order I've got the D prospects making the jump ... Oleksiak is only 19, and I think they'll be patient. Plus, I think it's pretty clear at this point that Dillon and Nemeth are either ready or just about to force their way onto the team. 2 years in the AHL will only put Oleksiak at 21 years old ... about to turn 22 .... if he was starting his rookie season after a 2 year contract for Souray.

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05-21-2012, 11:00 PM
  #29
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Dillon and Daley seem like a good bet for a pair next year, but if you brought Souray back it would be interesting to see how Dillon and Goligoski work.

Your Top 4 at ES could be Fistric-Daley and Souray-Larsen. I think you'd go Goligoski-Larsen and Dillon-Daley on the PP.

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05-21-2012, 11:12 PM
  #30
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Goligoski - Robidas/Souray
Daley - Dillon
Fistric - Larsen

I'm hooked on that last pairing, though, but I shouldn't be.

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05-21-2012, 11:45 PM
  #31
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I really don't want Souray back. I agree with Big that he's a good option if he's played as #3-#4 D, but we know that's not going to happen. I think Robidas and Souray both have been used incorrectly by the coaching staff and I don't have faith that their opinions of nor their handling of those 2 D-men will change next year.

Then again I really don't know who should be drawing top matchups either. Daley was good this year but I don't think he's good enough to anchor a #1 unit. Not having a clear-cut #1 D-man really hurts us.

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05-21-2012, 11:51 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Like I said though, I hate it if Robidas is still around though.
As do I. Keeping them both is just not going to help this team get better, however re-signing Souray in lieu of keeping Robidas is the better of the two options. I agree that he must not be used like a #1 D-man, which I think given the injuries he is likely to incur, will mitigate that. Those likely injuries will also be a good chance to get a look at Nemeth or Oleksiak (in that order and assuming that Dillon makes the roster out of camp).

I just don't see the downside here.

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05-21-2012, 11:57 PM
  #33
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Universal agreement and expectations that Dillon will make the big club. Me like.

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Old
05-22-2012, 12:04 AM
  #34
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put me in the Im fine with keeping souray as long as robidas is moved category

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Old
05-22-2012, 12:09 AM
  #35
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They seem committed to Robidas and I doubt they'll keep both he and Sourey. You can't supposedly remake the roster yet bring everyone back. One of the two is gone but it is obviously much easier to just not sign Sourey no matter even if he wants to return, than it is to trade Robidas with his NTC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glovesave_35
I just don't see the downside here.
I don't see the upside here. Who's taking Robidas? Paying him 3.3 million to be a bottom pair guy with a roll back on the salary cap seems unlikely. Especially when a team has to pay for the pleasure. Make no mistake I want him gone but he's probably the hardest to move.

I have to think they're ready to take a chance with Dillon and quite possibly Benn. Heck Nemeth may well push for a spot. If they want a stop gap there have to be better players than Sourey but all of it is contingent of trading Robidas. Who needs or wants him? Then once you come up with a list who's giving the Stars a price they're willing to accept? I'll be damn impressed if JN can farm him off on someone but it seems obvious by now that there's not a price being offered that they'd agree to.


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05-22-2012, 12:42 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
They seem committed to Robidas and I doubt they'll keep both he and Sourey. You can't supposedly remake the roster yet bring everyone back. One of the two is gone but it is obviously much easier to just not sign Sourey no matter even if he wants to return, than it is to trade Robidas with his NTC.
We actually don't know what is what on this team right now, like...at all. When your owner comes out and basically says the leadership core of this team must be given a hard look there is a new world order to deal with.


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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
Then once you come up with a list who's giving the Stars a price they're willing to accept? I'll be damn impressed if JN can farm him off on someone but it seems obvious by now that there's not a price being offered that they'd agree to.
If they make the decision that he must be moved rather than trying to squeeze every last drop of trade value out of him I'm fairly confident there will be at least one team willing to take on his contract for some sort of mid round pick or project prospect at very worst. If you trade Robidas it's not because you think you can get some great value out him as a tradable asset, it's because you've determined your team is better off without him.

As far as getting him to waive the NTC I really don't have much doubt they could get him to agree to it because...

...we finally have an owner and his NTC doesn't protect him from a buyout. Tell him one way or the other he's done here. He'll get more money if he just accepts a trade.

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05-22-2012, 12:43 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
They seem committed to Robidas and I doubt they'll keep both he and Sourey. You can't supposedly remake the roster yet bring everyone back. One of the two is gone but it is obviously much easier to just not sign Sourey no matter even if he wants to return, than it is to trade Robidas with his NTC.



I don't see the upside here. Who's taking Robidas? Paying him 3.3 million to be a bottom pair guy with a roll back on the salary cap seems unlikely. Especially when a team has to pay for the pleasure. Make no mistake I want him gone but he's probably the hardest to move.

I have to think they're ready to take a chance with Dillon and quite possibly Benn. Heck Nemeth may well push for a spot. If they want a stop gap there have to be better players than Sourey but all of it is contingent of trading Robidas. Who needs or wants him? Then once you come up with a list who's giving the Stars a price they're willing to accept? I'll be damn impressed if JN can farm him off on someone but it seems obvious by now that there's not a price being offered that they'd agree to.
It seems like people are skipping over him straight to the other D prospects. I thought Benn was good every time he was on the ice in each game that he played. Plus, the 2A in the 3GP looks good. Though it's a tiny stat and might not show any real production capabilities what so ever at this moment, it shows that he CAN play at this level as well. That's why I put him after Dillon to make the club.

Oleksiak is 19 and needs to soak in the AHL for a bit, like mentioned earlier.

Nemeth would be great to have, but he needs a year in the AHL as well so he can get used to playing in NA.

I just personally think that Benn is being overlooked more than maybe he deserves.

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05-22-2012, 12:45 AM
  #38
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I do think Dillon will be up here next year. Souray should go where a contender is.

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05-22-2012, 02:08 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by glovesave_35 View Post
As do I. Keeping them both is just not going to help this team get better, however re-signing Souray in lieu of keeping Robidas is the better of the two options. I agree that he must not be used like a #1 D-man, which I think given the injuries he is likely to incur, will mitigate that. Those likely injuries will also be a good chance to get a look at Nemeth or Oleksiak (in that order and assuming that Dillon makes the roster out of camp).

I just don't see the downside here.
I appreciate that you're coming at the problem from a different angle, but Souray as captain? You said it yourself, he will incur injuries. After just going through a season with a partially absentee captain I'd think that's something that you don't want to set yourself up to have happen. I don't have any confidence in Souray to stay on the ice. No one leads from the pressbox.

Then again the whole thing seems unnecessary to me since I believe that Loui is the logical choice to be captain.

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05-22-2012, 02:19 AM
  #40
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Maybe it's just because I'm cynical but I've heard this "talk" before. Now granted it was when they didn't have an owner but until I actually see players traded I'm not a believer in this management group pushing veterans out the door, especially at depressed prices or without receiving NHL ready players in return. They've had chances to move guys but they haven't. Why am I supposed to believe this time is actually different?

I know there have to be murmurs behind closed doors. No one can have objectively watched this team last year and not see its problems and yet no players were traded at the deadline. Maybe I'm just feeling like Cassandra as I've repeated doom and gloom while no one listens to me but at this point I need actions and not words and until the roster is turned over I'm not convinced changes will occur.

As for Captain, honestly this team doesn't have one. They shouldn't give the C to someone until it's really earned. Maybe a year without "that guy" might light a fire under a few players to realize they have to carry themselves.

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05-22-2012, 02:41 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by piqued View Post
I appreciate that you're coming at the problem from a different angle, but Souray as captain? You said it yourself, he will incur injuries. After just going through a season with a partially absentee captain I'd think that's something that you don't want to set yourself up to have happen. I don't have any confidence in Souray to stay on the ice. No one leads from the pressbox.

Then again the whole thing seems unnecessary to me since I believe that Loui is the logical choice to be captain.
I'm going through hockey withdrawal so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I'm just trying to get a little creative on this one and read between the lines.

Just curious, but do you think Loui should just BE the captain as in for the next decade or just until Benn or someone else is ready to take that title? Loui is one of my favorite players so I can't say the possibility of him being 'the guy' hasn't crossed my mind, but he just seems like the kind of guy to me that is the perfect "Robin"; I consider Benn a legitimate "Batman" and thus he's my guy.

This Daley as captain talk is just silly though.

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05-22-2012, 03:11 AM
  #42
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I think Loui is the guy on his own merits. Yeah, the idea would be for him to take over that job for the foreseeable future, not to keep the C warm for Benn, who I believe fits more into the Modano role. I don't think it's possible to give Benn too much responsibility on the ice but I would be wary of giving him an additional burden like that.

Loui has:
  • Durability -- he's played an average of 81.25 games over the past 4 seasons.
  • Credibility -- he's either the best player on the team or the 2nd best player and figures to remain so.
  • Experience -- you wouldn't just be giving the C to a kid; he would be a bridge between young players and vets. Furthermore he has competed admirably at the highest levels of international play and possesses NHL playoff experience. Loui is the same age as Ryan Callahan, for example.
  • Respect -- from the officials and his opponents. He doesn't mouth off at anyone or make a scene on the way to the penalty box (on the rare occasion he even makes that trip). Part of fixing the penalty problem is installing a responsible player with a good reputation at the top of your leadership structure who doesn't cry when things don't go his way.
  • Legitimacy -- he was drafted and developed by the organization and paid his dues in the minors. He wouldn't be seen as a hired gun. Add to that the fact he plays hard every single night and does all the little things right and I can't think of a better example for young players to follow.
The Swedish thing is a non-factor this day and age. That trail has been thoroughly blazed. His English is perfectly fine from a functional perspective. On top of that you know it wouldn't go to his head... he's incorruptible.

I just have no appetite to see more of the same. Whether that's a tenured vet like Morrow or a recent arrival like Souray I just want them all gone. Get younger starting now wherever possible.

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05-22-2012, 03:24 AM
  #43
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I think Loui is the guy on his own merits. Yeah, the idea would be for him to take over that job for the foreseeable future, not to keep the C warm for Benn, who I believe fits more into the Modano role. I don't think it's possible to give Benn too much responsibility on the ice but I would be wary of giving him an additional burden like that.

Loui has:
  • Durability -- he's played an average of 81.25 games over the past 4 seasons.
  • Credibility -- he's either the best player on the team or the 2nd best player and figures to remain so.
  • Experience -- you wouldn't just be giving the C to a kid; he would be a bridge between young players and vets. Furthermore he has competed admirably at the highest levels of international play and possesses NHL playoff experience. Loui is the same age as Ryan Callahan, for example.
  • Respect -- from the officials and his opponents. He doesn't mouth off at anyone or make a scene on the way to the penalty box (on the rare occasion he even makes that trip). Part of fixing the penalty problem is installing a responsible player with a good reputation at the top of your leadership structure who doesn't cry when things don't go his way.
  • Legitimacy -- he was drafted and developed by the organization and paid his dues in the minors. He wouldn't be seen as a hired gun. Add to that the fact he plays hard every single night and does all the little things right and I can't think of a better example for young players to follow.
The Swedish thing is a non-factor this day and age. That trail has been thoroughly blazed. His English is perfectly fine from a functional perspective. On top of that you know it wouldn't go to his head... he's incorruptible.

I just have no appetite to see more of the same. Whether that's a tenured vet like Morrow or a recent arrival like Souray I just want them all gone. Get younger starting now wherever possible.
You've sold me. I'm less convinced that we should be wary of Benn having too much leadership responsibility (long term) than you but Loui does have pretty much everything you could want. The international play/success is a big one for me.

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05-22-2012, 04:10 AM
  #44
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I could definitely see Loui as the captain, Benn maybe in a few years. Otherwise I don't really see anyone on this roster I would like to see as the captain moving forward.

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05-22-2012, 07:51 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post
They seem committed to Robidas and I doubt they'll keep both he and Sourey. You can't supposedly remake the roster yet bring everyone back. One of the two is gone but it is obviously much easier to just not sign Sourey no matter even if he wants to return, than it is to trade Robidas with his NTC.



I don't see the upside here. Who's taking Robidas? Paying him 3.3 million to be a bottom pair guy with a roll back on the salary cap seems unlikely. Especially when a team has to pay for the pleasure. Make no mistake I want him gone but he's probably the hardest to move.

I have to think they're ready to take a chance with Dillon and quite possibly Benn. Heck Nemeth may well push for a spot. If they want a stop gap there have to be better players than Sourey but all of it is contingent of trading Robidas. Who needs or wants him? Then once you come up with a list who's giving the Stars a price they're willing to accept? I'll be damn impressed if JN can farm him off on someone but it seems obvious by now that there's not a price being offered that they'd agree to.
I can't argue that they have seemed committed to Robidas, but I think if it is an appropriate argument to make that it's not like the coaches had significantly better choices. However, yeah I understand the fear of the coaches doing the exact same thing again and relying to heavily on aging vets.

Which leads to an excellent point brought up by UnholyPrince .... What two D on this team are ready for top pairing, shutdown minutes? With or without Robidas and/or Souray, I'd say none. That's the main issue with this off-season. It seems most people are in the camp that realizes it's going to be extremely difficult to actually improve Dallas' D with what it needs ... a #1. I'd prefer guys like Daley, Larsen, and Fistric get those minutes just to push them with harder assignments, but there could be negatives with that as well.

I think the most reasonable result of free agency, the draft, and trades by training camp is going to be a group that is younger ... replacing Dillon with Souray/Robidas ... and less likely but possibly better by shipping out Robidas so you can re-sign Souray, sign a guy to short term contract in free agency (Hal Gill? Greg Zannon? etc.), or make a trade (Bouwmeester? Meszaros? etc.).

Here's the bright side IMO, the D wasn't great, but they were good enough most nights because of Kari Lehtonen. Again, I think most people agree that the PP, not the D, played a bigger part in Dallas failing to make the playoffs. So if you make some, even minimal, improvements to the D, I think the team will be in a better position as long as you focus on rebuilding (retooling just didn't seem strong enough) the PP.

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05-22-2012, 09:43 AM
  #46
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Defending Big D also noticed the Souray quote and decided to talk about bring back Souray.

They stayed away from bashing his effectiveness and talked more about him being Plan B. The interesting point that they presented (and I don't think anyone mentioned) is will he still be available as a Plan B on July 2nd or 3rd? If he's not, are you confident they'll find an adequate replacement rather than another risky project like Jeff Woywitka (their example) or Adam Pardy (my example)?

This is their idea of pairs:

Quote:
Alex Goligoski - Free Agent
Sheldon Souray - Stephane Robidas
Trevor Daley - Philip Larsen/Other Young Kid With Strong Camp?
Honestly not a fan at all. If Dillon and Larsen aren't both on the roster ... unless we're talking a #1 pushed Dillon out ... I don't want to see it really. Plus, that free agent is probably not Suter, and I'd rather see Fistric back on a cheaper contract and his still potential to grow over a free agent.

I'm still firmly in the "Only one of Robidas/Souray ... I prefer Souray by a mile" camp.

They don't even touch on the possibility of moving Robidas, and they seem to think Dillon is more of a long-shot than a lock. IMO, they are underestimating the franchises view of Dillon based on comments from Gaglardi and Jackson. Also, I could be reading this wrong, but they seem to have Larsen in the category of NOT a lock for the roster ... like a young player could push him out. I don't want to say it's impossible, but the chance of that happening seems rather unlikely.

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05-22-2012, 10:34 AM
  #47
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Bob Sturm doesn't writes as often about the Stars as Heika and Stepneski, but he's a great source of information usually when he does.

This is his view of the off-season.

My favorite part, and possibly the best description I've seen of free agency:

Quote:
And finally....Free Agency.

This is where the big money is spent and the tears of regret flow for years. You must dabble and be aggressive at times, but you must be very careful not to lock down the wrong guy that saddles your future. The pickings are slim, but it appears the Stars are ready to shop.

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05-22-2012, 10:54 AM
  #48
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In my twisted opinion, I believe Daley should get the captaincy before Loui.

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05-22-2012, 11:13 AM
  #49
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Don't want Louie to be captain. All I can think of is Sedin getting punched in the face and just taking it from Lucic last year. I just don't see Louie as this tenacious leader.

My vote goes to Benn who holds it until Nemeth comes and kicks the NHL's ass

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05-22-2012, 11:14 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Defending Big D also noticed the Souray quote and decided to talk about bring back Souray.

They stayed away from bashing his effectiveness and talked more about him being Plan B. The interesting point that they presented (and I don't think anyone mentioned) is will he still be available as a Plan B on July 2nd or 3rd? If he's not, are you confident they'll find an adequate replacement rather than another risky project like Jeff Woywitka (their example) or Adam Pardy (my example)?

This is their idea of pairs:



Honestly not a fan at all. If Dillon and Larsen aren't both on the roster ... unless we're talking a #1 pushed Dillon out ... I don't want to see it really. Plus, that free agent is probably not Suter, and I'd rather see Fistric back on a cheaper contract and his still potential to grow over a free agent.

I'm still firmly in the "Only one of Robidas/Souray ... I prefer Souray by a mile" camp.

They don't even touch on the possibility of moving Robidas, and they seem to think Dillon is more of a long-shot than a lock. IMO, they are underestimating the franchises view of Dillon based on comments from Gaglardi and Jackson. Also, I could be reading this wrong, but they seem to have Larsen in the category of NOT a lock for the roster ... like a young player could push him out. I don't want to say it's impossible, but the chance of that happening seems rather unlikely.
DBD is pretty weird at times. Even before last season there was a pretty big Larsen as trade bait idea floating around there so it wouldn't shock me if many of them think Larsen can be pushed out of a job or just wont be around.

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