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2011-2012 Flyers Prospects and Phantoms Discussion Thread Part II

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05-22-2012, 12:45 AM
  #976
jfb392
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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
I'm not making any calls on the signing, but are these examples, except for, maybe Weber, really applicable? Scouting has probably come a long way since then, especially in terms of exposure players are getting at a young age, so it'd perhaps be easier to overlook a player back then than it is now. Having said that, I again repeat I'm not making any calls, and I'm sure the Flyers' scouts have done their due diligence in regards to this.
My point is that it's still incredibly hard to project talent of 14 and 15 year old kids playing bantam and that if a kid isn't selected in the WHL Draft, it's not necessarily because they aren't talented.
There are still plenty of successful players in the league that were not selected, but I just gave examples of NHL stars that would be familiar names to reinforce my point that him not being drafted in junior isn't a big deal as it happens to the best players.

Even though the quality of scouting is much better, plenty still fall through the cracks.
The reasons vary greatly; they could be undersized (Weber), suffer from injury during their draft season, play for a poor program, or play in the middle of nowhere (Hamhuis).
More modern examples include Jamie Benn (not sure why he was ignored in the bantam draft, probably size and a little bit of location, as Vancouver Island kids seem to get ignored), Ryan Johansen (because of size), and Milan Lucic (back issues).

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05-22-2012, 12:56 AM
  #977
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Also worth noting is that Claude Giroux was passed over in the OHL draft which is why he ended up in the Q. Size was also a factor.

Kids definitely get overlooked. Akeson was another.

That said, I don't just give Johnston the benefit of the doubt. The organization though has earned it for now.

Yeah you have Pither and Harper and Hostetter. However you also have Read and Bobrovsky and Manning and Gustafsson and Zolnierczyk and Holmstrom.

I'm currently in "wait and see" mode before I critique too much. Holmgren has earned some scouting brownie points recently.

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05-22-2012, 01:16 AM
  #978
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I am not sure Akeson is ready for the NHL yet. Good for him that he had a nice year on a offensive challenged Adirondack team tho.
Take Shelley and Rinaldo out of the mix and who does he beat for a spot knowing what we know now? it will be a tough task for him.

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05-22-2012, 01:25 AM
  #979
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
Well, plenty of kids are never drafted in junior, especially in the WHL.
They draft out of bantam instead of midget, so it's even more difficult to project kids.
Doan, Iginla, and Weber were never drafted, just to name a few.
He was property of a team though, as he was added to the Saskatoon Blades protected player list.

I'm kind of on the fence with the signing.
I don't understand why a team would prefer that a player skip college when he has a full ride scholarship, but maybe he was highly sought after and they wanted to make sure they got him.
The article made it sound as if interest was from multiple teams. I guess once we see if he got max ELC salary or not might indicate this. I do like that many of these free agents choose the Flyers to sign with when there is competition.

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05-22-2012, 02:33 AM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Also worth noting is that Claude Giroux was passed over in the OHL draft which is why he ended up in the Q. Size was also a factor.

Kids definitely get overlooked. Akeson was another.

That said, I don't just give Johnston the benefit of the doubt. The organization though has earned it for now.

Yeah you have Pither and Harper and Hostetter. However you also have Read and Bobrovsky and Manning and Gustafsson and Zolnierczyk and Holmstrom.

I'm currently in "wait and see" mode before I critique too much. Holmgren has earned some scouting brownie points recently.
Yeah, Holmgren and the scouting staff certainly seem to have a keen eye for talent.

I give them a ton of credit for even having scouts that pay close attention to the SJHL and RBC Cup, as most teams seem to ignore Canadian Jr. A (and if they don't, they only like the AJHL, BCHL, and OJHL) and the RBC didn't have that many NHL prospects outside of the already drafted kids on the Vees (the only notable eligible for the draft this year was Wade Murphy of Penticton; there's also Brendan Harms on Portage who will be eligible next year).

I think paying attention to those leagues is definitely a good way to steal talent since it's the least scouted high-level league in North America.
After being less than impressed with the depth in this year's draft, I started to comb through all of the Jr. A leagues and found a couple of kids that I really like.
I even found kids that were only affiliate players that I think have good potential (two played midget for the majority of the year and one played Jr. B ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillDineen View Post
The article made it sound as if interest was from multiple teams. I guess once we see if he got max ELC salary or not might indicate this. I do like that many of these free agents choose the Flyers to sign with when there is competition.
I'll be surprised if he gets anything close to max.
Teams probably just put their offers on the table and let him decide for himself which would be the best fit.

It'd be interesting to find out if there was actually other offers.
The article does say that other teams were kicking the tires, but deciding to take a kid straight out of the SJHL and put him into the minor pro ranks is unconventional, so I find it hard to believe that there would be teams really going after him.
I can see lots of teams kicking the tires and letting him know that they'd come calling after his freshman year at Union, though.

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05-22-2012, 09:33 AM
  #981
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Also worth noting is that Claude Giroux was passed over in the OHL draft which is why he ended up in the Q. Size was also a factor.

Kids definitely get overlooked. Akeson was another.

That said, I don't just give Johnston the benefit of the doubt. The organization though has earned it for now.

Yeah you have Pither and Harper and Hostetter. However you also have Read and Bobrovsky and Manning and Gustafsson and Zolnierczyk and Holmstrom.

I'm currently in "wait and see" mode before I critique too much. Holmgren has earned some scouting brownie points recently.
I absolutely agree with everything you said here. As far as the signing goes if this guy is one of those "potential diamond in the rough" type signing then I'm all for it. But if we blew a contract on a Bordson or Row replacement or something I'll be ticked. That is part of why I loved the Roe signing so much last year. He helped the Phantoms and didn't cost a Flyers contract to do so.

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05-22-2012, 12:18 PM
  #982
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Finally getting to see some Griffin Reinhart action today against St. John's, and he looks pretty legit. Hope he falls

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05-22-2012, 12:34 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
Yeah, Holmgren and the scouting staff certainly seem to have a keen eye for talent.

I give them a ton of credit for even having scouts that pay close attention to the SJHL and RBC Cup, as most teams seem to ignore Canadian Jr. A (and if they don't, they only like the AJHL, BCHL, and OJHL) and the RBC didn't have that many NHL prospects outside of the already drafted kids on the Vees (the only notable eligible for the draft this year was Wade Murphy of Penticton; there's also Brendan Harms on Portage who will be eligible next year).
I think paying attention to those leagues is definitely a good way to steal talent since it's the least scouted high-level league in North America.
After being less than impressed with the depth in this year's draft, I started to comb through all of the Jr. A leagues and found a couple of kids that I really like.
I even found kids that were only affiliate players that I think have good potential (two played midget for the majority of the year and one played Jr. B ).

I'll be surprised if he gets anything close to max.
Teams probably just put their offers on the table and let him decide for himself which would be the best fit.

It'd be interesting to find out if there was actually other offers.
The article does say that other teams were kicking the tires, but deciding to take a kid straight out of the SJHL and put him into the minor pro ranks is unconventional, so I find it hard to believe that there would be teams really going after him.
I can see lots of teams kicking the tires and letting him know that they'd come calling after his freshman year at Union, though.
Johnston was heads and tails above the competition at the RBC IMO, he stood out far more then guys like Murphy and Mario Lucia (2nd round pick of the Wild).

The only 2 guys who impressed me almost as much as Johnston were Mike Reilly (silky smooth D-man from Penticton, 4th rounder of Columbus) and Jon Kleinhans (goalie who stood on his head night in and night out for IMO the weakest team in the tourny)

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05-22-2012, 01:46 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by jlockhart89 View Post
Johnston was heads and tails above the competition at the RBC IMO, he stood out far more then guys like Murphy and Mario Lucia (2nd round pick of the Wild).
Thanks. Do you think Johnston has a chance at the NHL someday? Was he just a skinny kid who developed late?

Any recon from Humboldt is welcome. Any comparisons to NHL players re: style/type?

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05-22-2012, 02:25 PM
  #985
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Ranford article:

http://www.kamloopsnews.ca/article/2...g-waiting-game

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05-22-2012, 02:44 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by FLYguy3911 View Post
I really want to see Ranford signed. I like seeing late round picks succeed.

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05-22-2012, 04:08 PM
  #987
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Thanks. Do you think Johnston has a chance at the NHL someday? Was he just a skinny kid who developed late?

Any recon from Humboldt is welcome. Any comparisons to NHL players re: style/type?
To be honest I don't know what his chances are, the kid is a complete stud who dominated the league, however there's players who dominate Major Junior A even and don't pan out and make the NHL.

I don't know a lot about Johnston's recruitment out of Midget AAA to say why he developed late. I heard he was on the Saskatoon Blades protected list but never played a game for them to keep his NCAA eligibility in tact (He had a full ride scholarship from Union already in Flin Flonbefore we acquired him before the start of this season).

He seems like the kind of guy who maybe is still a little sleight but with a stricter training routine (stricter then what most Jr. A teams have) he seems like he has the frame to put on positive muscle.

I always hate player comparisons to NHL players (even when we're talking kids coming out of the draft) but I can touch on some of his attributes if that helps. He plays a real headsy game and his transition game seems to be pretty solid. He's got a pretty quick wrist shot and snap shot, many of his goals going shelf the goalie doesn't even make a reaction to. He's also really good at distributing the puck, he uses his teammates a ton (unlike many highly skilled junior players). I don't know if anyone would call him a defensive wizard but he's resposible in his own end and took regular penalty kill shifts with the Broncos despite having plenty of 20 year olds on the team who could be playing regular PK time and keeping him fresh.

Like I said I don't know what his chances are, especially being a 20 year old UDFA, but I don't doubt he has the skill and size that he could potentially surprise some people.

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05-22-2012, 04:58 PM
  #988
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Um...Saskatchewan Junior Hockey League... Not Saskatoon. Whoever is updating the Flyers' stuff should know better.

Either way, I know next to nothing about this kid except that he was a force in the RBC Cup from what I hear.

In another point, more contract spots are sliding away from Ranford. Maybe Meltzer was right about the Flyers possibly not looking in Ranford's direction for a number of reasons, whatever they may be.
42 players under contract for next year ( minus Mathers and Cousins who won't count) + 7 RFAs (Voracek, Sestito, Zolnierczyk, Bourdon, Rowe, Testwuide and Holsmtron)

Rowe and probably Testwuide won't be retained. This leaves 5 contract spots to sign Ranford, UFAs (Carle?, Jagr?) and unsigned prospects.

It's still close but not as bad as it was last year.


Last edited by Booba: 05-22-2012 at 05:27 PM.
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05-22-2012, 07:05 PM
  #989
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42 players under contract for next year ( minus Mathers and Cousins who won't count) + 7 RFAs (Voracek, Sestito, Zolnierczyk, Bourdon, Rowe, Testwuide and Holsmtron)

Rowe and probably Testwuide won't be retained. This leaves 5 contract spots to sign Ranford, UFAs (Carle?, Jagr?) and unsigned prospects.

It's still close but not as bad as it was last year.
Edit: nevermind. I doubt they sign Ranford though.

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05-22-2012, 11:06 PM
  #990
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Like I said I don't know what his chances are, especially being a 20 year old UDFA, but I don't doubt he has the skill and size that he could potentially surprise some people.
Thank you, much appreciated.

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05-23-2012, 05:42 AM
  #991
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42 players under contract for next year ( minus Mathers and Cousins who won't count) + 7 RFAs (Voracek, Sestito, Zolnierczyk, Bourdon, Rowe, Testwuide and Holsmtron)

Rowe and probably Testwuide won't be retained. This leaves 5 contract spots to sign Ranford, UFAs (Carle?, Jagr?) and unsigned prospects.

It's still close but not as bad as it was last year.
Yes, there shouldn't be any reason for us to lose players/picks due to the 50 contract limit next season. I don't know anything about Cal Heeter, but I imagine that they are looking to add a veteran goalie to back up Hovinen in the AHL and have Heeter be the starter in the ECHL. That might not require a NHL contract though.

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05-23-2012, 11:10 PM
  #992
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I'll be happy when the day comes when we actually stock the farm team with prospects that u can get excited about. There is only maybe 5 players on last years team that i'm happy with.

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05-24-2012, 12:21 AM
  #993
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In addition, Portland expects to lose NHL prospects Joe Morrow (Pittsburgh), Marcel Noebels (Philadelphia), Brad Ross (Toronto) and Bartschi (Calgary), who all have at least one season of junior eligibility remaining, but also have signed entry-level pro contracts that make it highly unlikely any of them will return to Portland.
http://www.oregonlive.com/hawks/inde...o-time_wh.html

Ya, might be speculation but I have a feeling he is correct. It is funny how his name is put with some other pretty good players (all those guys are 1st/2nd round picks)

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05-24-2012, 12:23 AM
  #994
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I'll be happy when the day comes when we actually stock the farm team with prospects that u can get excited about. There is only maybe 5 players on last years team that i'm happy with.
It starts with the draft. If you constantly trade picks you are never going to have that depth in the minors. You can't keep counting on finding the next Matt Read. Hopefully they can get back some picks this year or next year.

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05-24-2012, 01:04 AM
  #995
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It starts with the draft. If you constantly trade picks you are never going to have that depth in the minors. You can't keep counting on finding the next Matt Read. Hopefully they can get back some picks this year or next year.
Akeson.

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05-24-2012, 01:13 AM
  #996
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Akeson.
Wont be Akeson if he doesnt improve his 5v5 and defensive play. One of the main reasons he wasnt called up this season or wasnt even a Black Ace.

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05-24-2012, 01:13 AM
  #997
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It starts with the draft. If you constantly trade picks you are never going to have that depth in the minors. You can't keep counting on finding the next Matt Read. Hopefully they can get back some picks this year or next year.
Well, that's the cost of having a top NHL team.
I think they've done a good job at finding depth players (which up until Pronger's concussion, was really all they needed) given the amount of picks they've traded recently.
If you looked around the league at other teams that are consistently as good as the Flyers are, you'd probably find that their minor league depth is similar (lacking stars and mostly depth guys).

I mean, you'd always like to be completely stacked at every position, but that's just not realistic these days.

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05-24-2012, 08:10 AM
  #998
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The Detroit Red Wings have consistently demonstrated that you can find premiere players outside the early rounds of the draft. You CAN be successful trading picks, but you have to invest significant effort in international scouting and prospect development.

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05-24-2012, 08:18 AM
  #999
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The Detroit Red Wings have consistently demonstrated that you can find premiere players outside the early rounds of the draft. You CAN be successful trading picks, but you have to invest significant effort in international scouting and prospect development.
The red wings haven't drafted a premiere player since franzen in 04

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05-24-2012, 09:05 AM
  #1000
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A new thread has been opened:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1195515

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