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FINAL: Where does Nash end up?

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Old
05-22-2012, 02:01 PM
  #176
DangleDman
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Who is Nash's best comparison in the league? Meaning; age, production, size, speed, puck handling, passing, 2 way ability, shot, leadership (C), ect.... Good luck... Enough under valuing please, and be realistic. This is a challenge that I'm sure will bring laughable comments.

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05-22-2012, 02:02 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
None of this has any basis in fact or reality.

First, Howson will not be forced to yield to anything, particularly to a lowball offer. Plenty of teams have a need and desire to add Nash, and if a deal can't be made, his 30-40 goals stay in Columbus.

Second, if Nash were an RFA, it's an absolute 4 1st-rounders, not conditional. And Brandon Dubinsky, who is not any better than, say, RJ Umberger in his bad seasons, doesn't begin to bridge that gap.

Third, in a deal where an immediate and near-term return is pretty much mandatory, a handful of picks that will be somewhere between 45 and 60 for the next four years is useless. You're talking about a 2012 second-rounder, which will be 58th overall at absolute highest, who wouldn't be in the NHL before 2015-16 at the earliest. Then it goes all the way through a 2015 2nd-rounder, which wouldn't see the NHL before 2018-19 at the earliest. That's so far off in the future that Rick Dipietro's contract will have just two years left on it.

I've thrown several lowball offers around in this very thread. Each one of them (Thomas, Thornton, Luongo, Gomez) involves substantial cap relief for the team that has the potential acquisition for a player who has peaked and is declining to some extent. Rick Nash does not fit that mold at all; there's no pressing need to make a move just for the sake of making a move.
What was the lowball offer for Thomas again?

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05-22-2012, 02:10 PM
  #178
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CBJ is going to get one Prime asset and some other decent pick ups.

If they feel they are getting a top 6 a top 4 and blue chip prospects they will be sadly mistaken.

Kovie who has scored more goals more consistently than nash at the same age returned less and nashs contract situaion is = too or worse than negotiating your own contract with him.

Something like

Cory schnieder mason raymond and ballard would be what they get imo. you cant ignore how much cap hit that is eating up for apx 80ish points.

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05-22-2012, 02:14 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangleDman View Post
Who is Nash's best comparison in the league? Meaning; age, production, size, speed, puck handling, passing, 2 way ability, shot, leadership (C), ect.... Good luck... Enough under valuing please, and be realistic. This is a challenge that I'm sure will bring laughable comments.
that is making 8 million dollars for the next 7 years.. nobody doubts his value as a player.. if he was on a cap friendly hit of like 6ish mill you would get the moon + for him.

But you gota look at contenders. In van you can have daniel sedin AND alex burrows for what you pay nash.. is nash going to put up 140 + points with good players around.. no so his return will be diminished.

Great teams have great players signed for less than market value that is the key to being good for a long time.

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05-22-2012, 02:14 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I've thrown several lowball offers around in this very thread. Each one of them (Thomas, Thornton, Luongo, Gomez) involves substantial cap relief for the team that has the potential acquisition for a player who has peaked and is declining to some extent. Rick Nash does not fit that mold at all; there's no pressing need to make a move just for the sake of making a move.
Wait, what? Where did I miss that one? How is Thornton a 'low-ball' offer, and why in the world would we trade him FOR Nash, that wouldn't make any sense.

Either we get Nash, or you get Thornton, not both. Thornton is still a premier 1st line center who is playing the best hockey of his career right now (excellent defensively, not sheltered, still one of the best passers in the game, playoff warrior). I'd be willing to entertain the idea of trading JT TO Columbus (so you can pair him with Nash) but he's not coming cheap.

I'd want something like:
Thornton + Niemi

For

Johansen, Savard, Mason, 2nd overall

Plus it implies Thornton either has a window in his clause or will waive for CBJ... I don't see CJB going for that.

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05-22-2012, 02:15 PM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
CBJ is going to get one Prime asset and some other decent pick ups.

If they feel they are getting a top 6 a top 4 and blue chip prospects they will be sadly mistaken.

Kovie who has scored more goals more consistently than nash at the same age returned less and nashs contract situaion is = too or worse than negotiating your own contract with him.

Something like

Cory schnieder mason raymond and ballard would be what they get imo. you cant ignore how much cap hit that is eating up for apx 80ish points.
Something in between, most likely. The deal you propose does not include a "prime asset."

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05-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #182
MTaylorJ1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Something in between, most likely. The deal you propose does not include a "prime asset."
Is there any definitive idea of who Nash is willing to waive for?

I'd be curious to see the list of those teams and what Columbus would consider prime assets from them. Probably a better exercise than listing the players comparable to Nash.

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05-22-2012, 02:22 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
Is there any definitive idea of who Nash is willing to waive for?

I'd be curious to see the list of those teams and what Columbus would consider prime assets from them. Probably a better exercise than listing the players comparable to Nash.
I believe it is supposedly:

Bruins
Sharks
Rangers
Kings
Leafs

Of those I think you can rule the Kings out totally at this point, and Bruins and Rangers are a long shot (imo).

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05-22-2012, 02:24 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I believe it is supposedly:

Bruins
Sharks
Rangers
Kings
Leafs

Of those I think you can rule the Kings out totally at this point, and Bruins and Rangers are a long shot (imo).
I don't think the Rangers are as big of a long-shot as you are making them out to be in this post.

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05-22-2012, 02:24 PM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Something in between, most likely. The deal you propose does not include a "prime asset."
huh? The best young goalie RFA besides price entering the prime of his career is not a prime asset?

what in your world is a prime asset?

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05-22-2012, 02:25 PM
  #186
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It's an interesting situation because the two teams that were the most interested (Kings and Rangers) may end up facing one another in the finals. Neither team probably would have made it there with Nash, considering the big roles played by the players rumored to be involved in the deal (Brown, McDonagh, etc).

I think a wildcard team like Nashville or Minnesota will go for it.

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05-22-2012, 02:26 PM
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
Is there any definitive idea of who Nash is willing to waive for?

I'd be curious to see the list of those teams and what Columbus would consider prime assets from them. Probably a better exercise than listing the players comparable to Nash.
It is supposedly the list quoted below. The other stuff is in the previous pages of this very thread.
EDIT:
This one, too.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1101441

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I believe it is supposedly:

Bruins
Sharks
Rangers
Kings
Leafs


Last edited by Double-Shift Lassť: 05-22-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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05-22-2012, 02:31 PM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
What was the lowball offer for Thomas again?
I suggested that Nash for Krejci, Peverley, and 24th overall this year was fairly equal...Thomas would be added in simply as a throw-in. It would allow Boston to clear $5 million off the cap, and roll with a Rask/Khudobin starting tandem. Thomas would be conditionally tied to Boston's 2013 first-rounder, so if he retires or suffers a major injury, Columbus acquires that as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
CBJ is going to get one Prime asset and some other decent pick ups.

If they feel they are getting a top 6 a top 4 and blue chip prospects they will be sadly mistaken.

Kovie who has scored more goals more consistently than nash at the same age returned less and nashs contract situaion is = too or worse than negotiating your own contract with him.

Something like

Cory schnieder mason raymond and ballard would be what they get imo. you cant ignore how much cap hit that is eating up for apx 80ish points.
Kovalchuk is a great comparable and a horrible example. Don Waddell was Atlanta's GM, and Kovalchuk was a pending UFA.

What would Zach Parise have returned this year, or Ryan Suter? It would be diminished simply because the temptation of free agency is there (and neither has re-signed yet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Wait, what? Where did I miss that one? How is Thornton a 'low-ball' offer, and why in the world would we trade him FOR Nash, that wouldn't make any sense.

Either we get Nash, or you get Thornton, not both. Thornton is still a premier 1st line center who is playing the best hockey of his career right now (excellent defensively, not sheltered, still one of the best passers in the game, playoff warrior). I'd be willing to entertain the idea of trading JT TO Columbus (so you can pair him with Nash) but he's not coming cheap.

I'd want something like:
Thornton + Niemi

For

Johansen, Savard, Mason, 2nd overall

Plus it implies Thornton either has a window in his clause or will waive for CBJ... I don't see CJB going for that.
I didn't suggest that Thornton would or should be traded for Nash, and it certainly wouldn't be a lowball offer if that was on the table. I was suggesting that, due to the possibility of the Sharks needing to clear cap space and get younger at the same time, I'd pursue Thornton rather than trade Nash to San Jose; logically, them being paired in either city would be 50:50 (either Nash to San Jose, or Thornton to Columbus).

But with Thornton's NTC and the possible need to clear space, I'd put the squeeze on the Sharks. Look at how little they got for Ehrhoff, or for Kiprusoff, due to a roster squeeze...this isn't a temporary thing, it's a two-year salary squeeze with aging players. My offer to get Thornton would look an awful lot closer to what it took to get him to San Jose in the first place, rather than anything resembling equal value. It'd be, "Doug, here's what little we're offering. You clear salary space, now go after Parise or various other UFAs. Take it or leave it."

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05-22-2012, 02:34 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
what in your world is a prime asset?
Someone who isn't a goalie for one. Would MUCH rather go for one in free agency who isn't as good than trade Nash or the 2nd overall to bring one back. If Columbus trades either Nash or the 2nd overall, I'd hope it brings back a main piece who is a young stud defenseman/center.

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05-22-2012, 02:35 PM
  #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
CBJ is going to get one Prime asset and some other decent pick ups.

If they feel they are getting a top 6 a top 4 and blue chip prospects they will be sadly mistaken.

Kovie who has scored more goals more consistently than nash at the same age returned less and nashs contract situaion is = too or worse than negotiating your own contract with him.

Something like

Cory schnieder mason raymond and ballard would be what they get imo. you cant ignore how much cap hit that is eating up for apx 80ish points.
If Nash were a free agent, 7 years at 7.8 million is probably around what he'd get. Kovalchuk and Hossa have deals that pay them $11 and $7.9 million in salary with very long length to drive down cap hit. Vanek has a $7.1 million cap hit. Gaborik has $7.5 million cap hit. I know Nash's cap hit is higher than all those guys but if they were stuck playing without a Center their whole careers like Nash is in Columbus I doubt they would produce much more than him. Nash is one of the premier Wingers in the game. That's why he was a slam dunk choice for Team Canada in 2010. Give him some guys to play with and watch him go 40-40 next year. Columbus was smart to get this guy locked up. You can say the cap hit is too expensive but he will return a great package.

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05-22-2012, 02:37 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I didn't suggest that Thornton would or should be traded for Nash, and it certainly wouldn't be a lowball offer if that was on the table. I was suggesting that, due to the possibility of the Sharks needing to clear cap space and get younger at the same time, I'd pursue Thornton rather than trade Nash to San Jose; logically, them being paired in either city would be 50:50 (either Nash to San Jose, or Thornton to Columbus).

But with Thornton's NTC and the possible need to clear space, I'd put the squeeze on the Sharks. Look at how little they got for Ehrhoff, or for Kiprusoff, due to a roster squeeze...this isn't a temporary thing, it's a two-year salary squeeze with aging players. My offer to get Thornton would look an awful lot closer to what it took to get him to San Jose in the first place, rather than anything resembling equal value. It'd be, "Doug, here's what little we're offering. You clear salary space, now go after Parise or various other UFAs. Take it or leave it."
Where are you getting the idea we have a cap space issue? We absolutely do not. Clowe, Niemi, and Murray are all easy to move and should garner reasonable returns. That's 9.9m. On top of that Handzus will either be moved or bought out (another 2.5m), and we can move Boyle if we want (his NTC is lifted this off-season). DW also inferred that Thornton/Marleau may have windows we are unaware of in their clauses.

We should have around $15m in cap space with just those basic moves, and right now the cap looks to be going upto $68m.

If we move Thornton, it's certainly not out of desperation.

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05-22-2012, 02:38 PM
  #192
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Quote:
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Do you think Nash waives his NTC to go to the Islanders?
I think it depends. If the Islanders are the only team offering what CBJ want, and Nash starts realizing it is either green-light a trade to the Island or stick with the Jackets, I think he might accept. As twentytwo mentioned, the idea of playing with Tavares could ultimately sway his decision in favor of Long Island.

However, if it appears that several different teams are willing to offer up packages that Columbus would consider, especially if any of those teams are Cup contenders, then no... I'd say he would decline a trade to the Islanders.

IMO, I don't see many teams offering up big pieces for Nash this offseason. I don't think contending teams will be able to afford his price-tag, and those who can would probably rather go after Parise and not have to sacrifice a ton of assets.

What makes this interesting for the Islanders though is not only their incredible amount of cap space and need to kickstart the rebuild, but their complete inability to lure in top-shelf UFAs. Even if a trade for Nash would cost them Strome, 4th overall, +, the Isles might prefer that route instead of the Parise route simply because it may just be Isles vs Jackets(Nash) as opposed to Isles vs 20+ teams(Parise).

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05-22-2012, 02:48 PM
  #193
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i don't understand how Nash is valued so high. He is on a massive contract and never put up more than 80 points. Sure he doesn't have great players to play with but you do know that they will give him the puck at every opportunity. ryan kesler has put up similar numbers to nash with a much smaller contract, better defensively and wouldn't get half of what columbus is asking for. this all seems stupid, someone enlighten me.

edit: i would do Schneider + Booth + Ballard + 2012 First for Nash + 2012 second

schneider is center piece, ballard to make the cap work.


Last edited by HockeyRX: 05-22-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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05-22-2012, 02:51 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by HockeyRX View Post
i don't understand how Nash is valued so high. He is on a massive contract and never put up more than 80 points. Sure he doesn't have great players to play with but you do know that they will give him the puck at every opportunity. ryan kesler has put up similar numbers to nash with a much smaller contract, better defensively and wouldn't get half of what columbus is asking for. this all seems stupid, someone enlighten me
What exactly would you like to know? There are plenty of posts in this and many other threads affirming your opinion, some on this very page.

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05-22-2012, 02:55 PM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I suggested that Nash for Krejci, Peverley, and 24th overall this year was fairly equal...Thomas would be added in simply as a throw-in. It would allow Boston to clear $5 million off the cap, and roll with a Rask/Khudobin starting tandem. Thomas would be conditionally tied to Boston's 2013 first-rounder, so if he retires or suffers a major injury, Columbus acquires that as well.
Put on your Peter Chiarelli Halloween mask. Why would you trade Krejci, Peverley, 1st for Nash?

(without even getting into Thomas as a throw-in when plenty of other treads on this board indicate he'd return at least a 2nd, without having to add a conditional pick if the thought of being in Columbus for a year is worse than retiring a year removed from a Vezina/Smythe season).

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05-22-2012, 02:57 PM
  #196
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If Rangers don't get Parise I could definitely see them giving up a couple of their very quality prospects for him. Considering the contract/risk involved, I don't think CBJ fans will be entirely happy with the deal that ends up going down- regardless of the trading partner.

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05-22-2012, 03:00 PM
  #197
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Nash is NOT worth 7-8 million lol Columbus fans are dreaming.

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05-22-2012, 03:03 PM
  #198
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If Rangers don't get Parise I could definitely see them giving up a couple of their very quality prospects for him. Considering the contract/risk involved, I don't think CBJ fans will be entirely happy with the deal that ends up going down- regardless of the trading partner.
The Rangers already offered 2 of their quality prospects to Columbus but it wasn't enough.

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05-22-2012, 03:04 PM
  #199
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Gardiner and Kreider were the deal breakers between rumored deals with Toronto and New York.

This summer:
1) Either Columbus lowers their demands on these players(they wouldn't lower it at the deadline so I doubt it)
2) These teams are out of the Nash sweepstakes(who's left ?)
3) Other teams enter the picture (and Nash would have to extend his list)
4) Nash isn't traded (can't imagine this happening, why keep your captain who doesn't really want to stay ?)

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05-22-2012, 03:08 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTaylorJ1 View Post
without having to add a conditional pick if the thought of being in Columbus for a year is worse than retiring a year removed from a Vezina/Smythe season).
Really? Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Generic User View Post
I don't think CBJ fans will be entirely happy with the deal that ends up going down- regardless of the trading partner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzburgh87 View Post
Nash is NOT worth 7-8 million lol Columbus fans are dreaming.
Or you could add to the conversation.

On the previous page, I speculated that the pressure is not so immense on Howson to accept a deal that is significantly less than what people seem to think CBJ fans expect. At the same time, I suggested he might have to drop his price some, but that the rest would be incumbent on the suitor to decide how important it is. Essentially that there is no more pressure on Howson to lower his offer than on any other GM's to boost his.

This discussion is way past the "ha-ha at you - Nash overvalued" stage.

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