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05-21-2012, 05:37 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Exactly. Not to mention that the reason we lost the NJD series was more than just the defensive play of our forwards. Goaltending, defensemen, offense, AND the defensive play of our forwards led to the Flyers getting embarrassed. My God how many times did a defenseman turn the puck over in their own zone? How badly did the Devils shut down the Flyers offense? How many shaky goals did Bryz let in? But yeah, Mike Richards would have saved the day!
I agree. We all knew and i remember reading posts about it how the team after the moves has a ridiculous age gap in terms of experience. we had older defenseman (pronger and kimmo) as stars a mid range goalie (age wise) and the majority of our offensive talent was now insanely young. i know holmgren looked at thomas and rolsoson (as depressing as that last one is) when he signed bryzgalov (who i still think is the right guy) so he assumed his best years through experience were and probably are ahead. but the rest of the teams players are out of whack age wise. the stanley cup is always the hardest puzzle to put together because its all about injuries and match ups but i don't think he realized that the pronger window would close so fast. If that damn grabovski didn't whack pronger in the face were looking at a completely different season this year.

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05-21-2012, 05:55 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
And before Richards and Carter got there, how did those previous post seasons go for Quick?
Right, and the only change was the addition of Richards and Carter, and they alone upped the defense to the point where an already very good goalie became Superman. It's not ok to suggest team defense isn't the reason they are winning and Quick's stats are good, but it is ok to suggest that Richards and Carter are the reason. Not Quick's play.


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So how far did they go last year before they got there?
Great argument. I guess this team was better with Krajicek, Bartulis, and Parent on the third pair. They went to the Cup with them! They have to be the difference! Leighton too!


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The facts say otherwise.
Which facts say otherwise? The fact that Kings are playing has not hinged on the play of Richards and Carter. The fact that the Flyers are not playing is not due to the absence of Richards and Carter. Once again, do you really think the defensive play of Richards and Carter, while replacing arguably the Flyers best defensive forward would have changed the outcome of that series. That series where the actual defensemen, the offense, the goalie, and the defensive play of the forwards were all out-shined by the opposition. Yup. Richards' defensive play and Carter's defensively play would have made up for the bad passes leading to goals by the defensemen. It would have made up for Bryz's mistakes. And their points (which are pretty much the same as the four guys they would be replacing) would have re-vamped the offense.


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So deal with facts instead, they will tell you the truth!
See above.


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Yeah, LMFAO, has nothing to do with the team playing in front of him.
Never once said it has nothing to do with the team playing in front of him. I said regardless of team defense he has played out of his mind. Look beyond the stat sheet. Watch the games and see the saves he is making. I know that you will say "I watched every second of every one of LA's games," which will clearly be a lie because if you have there is no way you can honestly sit there and say Quick is somehow the beneficiary of LA's defense and nothing more. Yes, their defense is playing better than the Flyers was, but Quick is still playing like Conn Smythe winner. Richards and Carter also are playing well, but again, they are not the reason the Kings are storming through the playoffs.

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05-21-2012, 08:25 PM
  #103
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Richards and Carter also are playing well, but again, they are not the reason the Kings are storming through the playoffs.[/QUOTE]

I don't recall anybody saying that Richards and Carter are the reason the Kings (so far) are storming thru the playoffs. But to suggest that they're inconsequential secondary role players who have not had much to do with the Kings' success and are basically riding the coat-tails of a number of others is just plain wrong. I'll repeat that the Kings would be no-where as successful with Simmonds, Schenn and Jack Johnson in place of the former two Flyers. That's the reality.

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05-21-2012, 08:45 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
I don't recall anybody saying that Richards and Carter are the reason the Kings (so far) are storming thru the playoffs.
Well, the person I was quoting is specifically pointing to last season without them and this season with them. What does that mean to you? Because to me it sounds like he is saying that Richards and Carter are the reason.

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But to suggest that they're inconsequential secondary role players who have not had much to do with the Kings' success and are basically riding the coat-tails of a number of others is just plain wrong. I'll repeat that the Kings would be no-where as successful with Simmonds, Schenn and Jack Johnson in place of the former two Flyers. That's the reality.
I'm not suggesting they are secondary role players. They are certainly doing their part to contribute, but if we are pointing to one player as driving the team forward, that player is Job Quick. If you don't like that answer, look no further than Dustin Brown (most points, most +/-, 2nd leader in ice time, plays in the key situations). And again, Richards and Carter certainly are playing well and certainly are contributing, but they are not the reason for the Kings' success. Just like their absence is not the reason the Flyers lost. If you swap Simmonds, Schenn, and Johnson with Carter and Richards, they likely would be in a similar situation. Maybe not as well, but I think they'd still be playing. It's not like Carter and Richards and HOFers and the other guys are nobodies.

Schenn was one of the best Flyers in the Devils series, Simmonds wasn't as effective as he had been in the regular season but played pretty well. On the Flyers the two combined for 15 points in 11 games. Richards and Carter have combined for 17 points through 13 games. There is no reason to think that these totals would not at least be similar if Simmonds and Schenn were on the Kings. Yes, the defense of Richards is better than anyone other players listed, but that hasn't been the difference maker in the series. Simmonds and Schenn are two defensively responsible players that I would think are on the same level as Carter, or only slightly behind. So while Richards defense may be missed, his point production likely would not and Carter's points and defense also would not. Throw Jack Johnson back onto that defense instead of whomever replaced him (was it Martinez?) and their blueline also looks better than it is now, which would help offset Richards's absence.

So besides just saying that it is a fact, what would you point to refute what I am saying?

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05-21-2012, 09:49 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Well, the person I was quoting is specifically pointing to last season without them and this season with them. What does that mean to you? Because to me it sounds like he is saying that Richards and Carter are the reason.



I'm not suggesting they are secondary role players. They are certainly doing their part to contribute, but if we are pointing to one player as driving the team forward, that player is Job Quick. If you don't like that answer, look no further than Dustin Brown (most points, most +/-, 2nd leader in ice time, plays in the key situations). And again, Richards and Carter certainly are playing well and certainly are contributing, but they are not the reason for the Kings' success. Just like their absence is not the reason the Flyers lost. If you swap Simmonds, Schenn, and Johnson with Carter and Richards, they likely would be in a similar situation. Maybe not as well, but I think they'd still be playing. It's not like Carter and Richards and HOFers and the other guys are nobodies.

Schenn was one of the best Flyers in the Devils series, Simmonds wasn't as effective as he had been in the regular season but played pretty well. On the Flyers the two combined for 15 points in 11 games. Richards and Carter have combined for 17 points through 13 games. There is no reason to think that these totals would not at least be similar if Simmonds and Schenn were on the Kings. Yes, the defense of Richards is better than anyone other players listed, but that hasn't been the difference maker in the series. Simmonds and Schenn are two defensively responsible players that I would think are on the same level as Carter, or only slightly behind. So while Richards defense may be missed, his point production likely would not and Carter's points and defense also would not. Throw Jack Johnson back onto that defense instead of whomever replaced him (was it Martinez?) and their blueline also looks better than it is now, which would help offset Richards's absence.

So besides just saying that it is a fact, what would you point to refute what I am saying?
I don't even know how to respond to this, other than to say you obviously haven't watched the Kings play much.

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05-21-2012, 10:03 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
I don't even know how to respond to this, other than to say you obviously haven't watched the Kings play much.
I'm confused. You're quoting the part about Johnson. Are you saying the Kings defensive squad would be worse off with Jack Johnson?

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05-21-2012, 10:42 PM
  #107
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I don't even know how to respond to this, other than to say you obviously haven't watched the Kings play much.
Ya think.....

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05-21-2012, 11:35 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm confused. You're quoting the part about Johnson. Are you saying the Kings defensive squad would be worse off with Jack Johnson?
I agree with your sentiment regarding Richards and Carter's importance to the Kings success, but feel comfortable asserting that Martinez has been a better defenseman than Johnson this season.

There's a pretty simple reality. Richards and Carter have been good, not great for LA, but they've fit into a roster of strong vets and young guys playing tremendously at the right time backstopped by a Vezina Candidate goaltender. They're pieces to the puzzle, but certainly not monster contributors a la Pronger to the Ducks.

If you subbed Richards for Schenn and Simmonds in the NJD Series, its impossible to predict what could have happened, but there's certainly no evidence to support that it would have turned the tides. I'm not even certain that A Quick for Bryz swap saves us in that series. The TEAM just hit the wall... vets, rookies, everyone... then the NJD stepped up unlike any team we had previously faced all year... let's not take credit away from them.

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05-21-2012, 11:55 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I agree with your sentiment regarding Richards and Carter's importance to the Kings success, but feel comfortable asserting that Martinez has been a better defenseman than Johnson this season.

There's a pretty simple reality. Richards and Carter have been good, not great for LA, but they've fit into a roster of strong vets and young guys playing tremendously at the right time backstopped by a Vezina Candidate goaltender. They're pieces to the puzzle, but certainly not monster contributors a la Pronger to the Ducks.

If you subbed Richards for Schenn and Simmonds in the NJD Series, its impossible to predict what could have happened, but there's certainly no evidence to support that it would have turned the tides. I'm not even certain that A Quick for Bryz swap saves us in that series. The TEAM just hit the wall... vets, rookies, everyone... then the NJD stepped up unlike any team we had previously faced all year... let's not take credit away from them.
Pronger wasn't a "monster contributor" to the Ducks, he was surrounded there. You're thinking of the Pronger in Edmonton.

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05-22-2012, 01:30 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Pronger wasn't a "monster contributor" to the Ducks, he was surrounded there. You're thinking of the Pronger in Edmonton.
Pronger is a monster contributor anywhere. Regardless of his surroundings.

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05-22-2012, 01:37 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Pronger wasn't a "monster contributor" to the Ducks, he was surrounded there. You're thinking of the Pronger in Edmonton.
Saying Pronger wasn't a gigantic contributor because he had Niedermayer and company is like saying Messier wasn't a massive contributor because Gretzky was around.

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05-22-2012, 08:21 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by 35NW8ING View Post
Pronger wasn't a "monster contributor" to the Ducks, he was surrounded there. You're thinking of the Pronger in Edmonton.
The three franchises he's left completely came apart, so he's had to have meant something to them.

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05-22-2012, 08:44 AM
  #113
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I agree with your sentiment regarding Richards and Carter's importance to the Kings success, but feel comfortable asserting that Martinez has been a better defenseman than Johnson this season.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, but whatever. To move this argument back in the direction of Flyers vs. Kings, I will concede that Johnson would not improve the Kings team. The point of my post wasn't to say Johnson is better than his replacement, that was a throw in at the end of a larger post about the Kings vs. Flyers successes.

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05-22-2012, 09:21 AM
  #114
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Before the season started it was addition by subtraction. Now the tune has changed a bit.

Fact is, Richards and Carter are going to their second cup final in 3 years. Talk about them being unable to win contradicts the anecdotal evidence slapping you in the face.

And acting like their roles on the kings this year are really that drastically different than they were for our team is really an over exaggeration.

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05-22-2012, 10:51 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
I'm confused. You're quoting the part about Johnson. Are you saying the Kings defensive squad would be worse off with Jack Johnson?
Uh, YEAH! Like I said, you haven't watched them play this season, have you? Voynov is better in every department. Johnson was a career minus 90+ with the Kings and the numbers don't lie. Kings fans are thrilled with him being gone and Voynove coming in. Carter is the icing on the cake at this point as far as that trade goes. Johnson himself said they didn't use him properly in LA but he's been pretty pissed off in all his post trade interviews. He seems to be playing better in Columbus so the trade with LA is win/win thus far.

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05-22-2012, 10:54 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Broad Street Elite View Post
I agree with your sentiment regarding Richards and Carter's importance to the Kings success, but feel comfortable asserting that Martinez has been a better defenseman than Johnson this season.

There's a pretty simple reality. Richards and Carter have been good, not great for LA, but they've fit into a roster of strong vets and young guys playing tremendously at the right time backstopped by a Vezina Candidate goaltender. They're pieces to the puzzle, but certainly not monster contributors a la Pronger to the Ducks.

If you subbed Richards for Schenn and Simmonds in the NJD Series, its impossible to predict what could have happened, but there's certainly no evidence to support that it would have turned the tides. I'm not even certain that A Quick for Bryz swap saves us in that series. The TEAM just hit the wall... vets, rookies, everyone... then the NJD stepped up unlike any team we had previously faced all year... let's not take credit away from them.
Martinez is their 3rd pairing dman and did not replace Johnson. Voynov did.

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05-22-2012, 10:58 AM
  #117
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Pronger is a monster contributor anywhere. Regardless of his surroundings.
Not true. In fact in the 2010 Olympics, the monster contributor had his minutes slashed in one game and they were given to 20 year old Drew Doughty. Pronger was a monster contributor in his prime which included the 2010 playoffs but after that, age and injuries took him down. People need to stop acting like he's in his late 20s.

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05-22-2012, 11:14 AM
  #118
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I will be rooting all the way for the Kings. It would be great if the boys get their name on the cup. Justin, I will have another drink with you if you get your name on it again.

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05-22-2012, 11:19 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by MsWoof View Post
Uh, YEAH! Like I said, you haven't watched them play this season, have you? Voynov is better in every department. Johnson was a career minus 90+ with the Kings and the numbers don't lie. Kings fans are thrilled with him being gone and Voynove coming in. Carter is the icing on the cake at this point as far as that trade goes. Johnson himself said they didn't use him properly in LA but he's been pretty pissed off in all his post trade interviews. He seems to be playing better in Columbus so the trade with LA is win/win thus far.
I've watched them play in the playoffs, but I guess if you have seen more of them maybe I'm wrong, but I was (and am) a fan of Johnson and at least in my book he's a second pairing guy. But again, like I said, I'll concede the point that their blueline is better off without him. I think it is pretty clear that my earlier post was not about Jack Johnson, I merely mentioned him as a way of buttressing my point. Ignore the Johnson sentence. The fact remains that Richards and Carter are not the driving force behind the Kings success this year, nor is their absence the driving force behind the Flyers lack of success.

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05-22-2012, 01:23 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by BringBackStevens View Post
Before the season started it was addition by subtraction. Now the tune has changed a bit.

Fact is, Richards and Carter are going to their second cup final in 3 years. Talk about them being unable to win contradicts the anecdotal evidence slapping you in the face.

And acting like their roles on the kings this year are really that drastically different than they were for our team is really an over exaggeration.
True. The Flyers had plenty of depth when they were here also; it's not like it was them and nobody else. But their success kind of speaks for itself at this point. It's one thing to argue that the Flyers wouldn't have gotten farther this year with them, but we should be able to put the "they're the reason why we couldn't win the Cup" talk to bed. Addition by subtraction it was definitely not.

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05-22-2012, 02:12 PM
  #121
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umm...did LA win the cup? If they lose in the Finals like the Flyers did in 2010 then what will be the argument with respect to Richards and Carter coming up short? Seriously, lots of hubris in counting chickens before they are hatched.

LA is a strong cup contender but let's keep things in perspective....

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05-22-2012, 02:16 PM
  #122
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umm...did LA win the cup? If they lose in the Finals like the Flyers did in 2010 then what will be the argument with respect to Richards and Carter coming up short? Seriously, lots of hubris in counting chickens before they are hatched.

LA is a strong cup contender but let's keep things in perspective....
I really don't think they have to win the Cup to disprove the notion that they're clubhouse cancers that only hold teams back. Or to demonstrate their worth to the Kings.

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05-22-2012, 02:25 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I really don't think they have to win the Cup to disprove the notion that they're clubhouse cancers that only hold teams back. Or to demonstrate their worth to the Kings.
They are the right additions to that particular team....they were necessary subtractions from the Flyers. That's really what it comes down to. Like Holmgren said..he didn't know if the Flyers were a better team but that they were different. This was before we even lost Pronger and Bryz underperformed. If you had those two big variables actually factored into a whole season at peak performance the Flyers could very well be the favorites in the East and still be contending and possibly be meeting LA in the Finals if LA does advance which is 99% likely. There are a lot of different ways of comparing the trades. Each team was helped in a lot of ways...LA's is more immediate and obvious right now but the Flyers with some further tinkering and luck/health will be much better off in the long run.

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05-22-2012, 02:40 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Coutsiephan View Post
They are the right additions to that particular team....they were necessary subtractions from the Flyers. That's really what it comes down to. Like Holmgren said..he didn't know if the Flyers were a better team but that they were different. This was before we even lost Pronger and Bryz underperformed. If you had those two big variables actually factored into a whole season at peak performance the Flyers could very well be the favorites in the East and still be contending and possibly be meeting LA in the Finals if LA does advance which is 99% likely. There are a lot of different ways of comparing the trades. Each team was helped in a lot of ways...LA's is more immediate and obvious right now but the Flyers with some further tinkering and luck/health will be much better off in the long run.
It will be better in the long run if they replace Kimmo/Pronger with equally effective defensemen. The Flyers just went from a team that was poised to win now to a team that's poised to win in a few years with the right moves. I'm okay with considering Carter a necessary subtraction, even though I like him as a player. Richards I don't agree with. He was basically replaced with Simmonds, Schenn and Jagr. I'd still take Richards over those 3 now and for the next few years.

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05-22-2012, 03:22 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
It will be better in the long run if they replace Kimmo/Pronger with equally effective defensemen. The Flyers just went from a team that was poised to win now to a team that's poised to win in a few years with the right moves. I'm okay with considering Carter a necessary subtraction, even though I like him as a player. Richards I don't agree with. He was basically replaced with Simmonds, Schenn and Jagr. I'd still take Richards over those 3 now and for the next few years.
Richards indirectly netted Grossmann as well with LA's 2nd rounder. It's actually a nice return especially if Schenn develops accordingly and Simmonds maintains a 20 goal avg per season. This year he netted more than expected but he should be a 20 to 25 guy. Also needs to get better defensively.

Richards would have remained here but it looks like them wanting to move Carter and Richards being a work in progress with the coach and then the media focus was becoming too much of a distraction for Richards and the team. It started affecting his game here particularly in the 2nd half of last year. It wasn't all injury related either.

He wasn't himself and lots of questions surfaced in the 2nd half and into the playoffs about him being "off" and not involved as usual. Even Lappy and Tocchet questioned his commitment in a lot of the broadcasts in that 2nd half.

Point is that he wasn't happy any longer here and a "separation" was needed to move forward and change the culture of the team. I think the Flyers would have like to keep him and just move Carter but seemed extenuating circumstances precluded that..

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