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World Junior Championship Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Russians care more for international play

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05-22-2012, 01:28 PM
  #76
Zuluss
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Originally Posted by Gemini View Post
Uh, when you win the Stanley Cup, you don't win it for the NHL. You win it for yourself. (You don't really even win it for the team because you really couldn't care less about that team if you were to face them in the finals next year. Jerseys and teammates come and go.)

And why is representing your country in sports such a huge honor that it should be considered more important than proving to yourself that you're the best (the whole point of sports)? I don't agree at all with the attitude that says that an individual should prove his worth to his country. If anything it's the other way around, particularly in the case of Russia, the subject of this topic. Howabout Russia starts proving that it's worth having Ovechkin, Malkin etc. and not vice versa?
I hope this post does not summarize the feelings of those who think Stanley Cup is more important, because that would cause me lose respect for those people.

Pro athletes have more than enough time in their pro career to get all the money and all the glory they need. But I only respect those who can stop being mercenaries and glory hunters and once in a while play for a cause greater than themselves.

Playing for your country with little if any pay is a good example of that. I still think playing for the team is a good example too, unless it's your third team in five years or smth. I always had extra respect for people like Lidstrom or Brodeur, as opposed to team-hopping stars.

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05-22-2012, 01:44 PM
  #77
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You can be a crappy player and still win the Cup if you're lucky to be on the right team. However, you can't win the Olympic gold if you're rubbish because you wouldn't make a national team

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05-22-2012, 01:46 PM
  #78
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Canada did better than any other nation in the past four Olympics. That's a fact. The Canadian players and fans cared about their victories very deeply. But they seem to belittle the importance of international hockey every time they lose.

In my eyes, international hockey trumps league hockey any day. In IIHF you can't buy or trade your players. You are who you are, you play for your country, and not a Ranger one day, a Devil next day, and an Islander next.

And I don't think that talk of WHC not being best-on-best is right. When the WHC playoffs started, there were 4 teams left in the SC playoffs, with only a handful of athletes with a shot at the national team. For Canada who claims they can ice 4-5 squads of equal strength, this is certainly no excuse.
The best 4 club teams in the world are still playing hockey, and thus by definition the WHC cannot be best-on-best. Certain nations are always going to be missing key players. Imagine if the World Cup of Soccer was being played without players from the Champions League semi-finals (Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, and Barcelona) and all the players on the four quarter finals teams were coming off of hard fought matches. Do you think that Spain would still have won or Argentina would not be severely crippled by the loss of Messi?

The IIHF has no one to blame but themselves for this loss of prestige as they continue to follow a Eurocentric agenda for the WHC.

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05-22-2012, 02:15 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The best 4 club teams in the world are still playing hockey, and thus by definition the WHC cannot be best-on-best. Certain nations are always going to be missing key players. Imagine if the World Cup of Soccer was being played without players from the Champions League semi-finals (Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, and Barcelona) and all the players on the four quarter finals teams were coming off of hard fought matches. Do you think that Spain would still have won or Argentina would not be severely crippled by the loss of Messi?

The IIHF has no one to blame but themselves for this loss of prestige as they continue to follow a Eurocentric agenda for the WHC.
Is funny that you bring up that analogy to football because lots of pundits here in England use the short length of time between the champions league and the World Cup as an excuse for why they lose every time rather than just accepting it is because the english national team simply isn't as good as the competition

(little bit off topic, not trying to claim any team is better internationally for ice hockey or any other sport...was just something that sprung to mind)


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05-22-2012, 02:18 PM
  #80
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You cant compare the soccer world cup with the hockey worlds. YOu can only compare the Fifa world cup with the olympic hockey tournament

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05-22-2012, 02:20 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Russian hockey has seen a resurgence lately. Up until 2010, many were singing its death knell. First came success at the WC. Then the WJR's. Perhaps 2014 will be their year as well. The big ice will help. Home ice may not.
It has a lot to do with the emergence of KHL and youth league MHL. Soon, many of the Russian stars will think twice about crossing the pond and become labeled a "heartless russian".

Look at Ovechkin, he basically gives his all the ice and he is still under an avalanche of critics because the rest of the team doesn't know how to score a goal in the playoffs.
The good thing, he has a thick skin for this media bull.

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05-22-2012, 02:34 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Sergei DRW View Post
It has a lot to do with the emergence of KHL and youth league MHL. Soon, many of the Russian stars will think twice about crossing the pond and become labeled a "heartless russian".
And that's a good thing. I believe NHL has to get a slap to the face.
Russia NT continued success simultaneously with more and more international losses of Canada probably creates doubts about untouchable status of NHL as the best league.
It will affect revenues in NHL. No. Not in Canada, but in USA. Then maybe Gary Bettman understands that non-supporting of international hockey, whole hockey in big picture was a mistake.

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05-22-2012, 02:54 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The best 4 club teams in the world are still playing hockey, and thus by definition the WHC cannot be best-on-best. Certain nations are always going to be missing key players. Imagine if the World Cup of Soccer was being played without players from the Champions League semi-finals (Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, and Barcelona) and all the players on the four quarter finals teams were coming off of hard fought matches. Do you think that Spain would still have won or Argentina would not be severely crippled by the loss of Messi?

The IIHF has no one to blame but themselves for this loss of prestige as they continue to follow a Eurocentric agenda for the WHC.
On the other hand, Hockey Canada can only blame themselves for not working things out with NHL and IIHF and for not persuading the stars to come over if they are not playing in the playoffs.

I admit that there are things that could have been done better by IIHF (the Canada game in the quarters starting at 5 am ET is one thing that comes to mind), but WHC is still way fairer than World Cup or WJC, which are run by Canada. That makes me think that most of complaints about IIHF being Eurocentric are actually something like "it does not bend over for Canada and does not hand us any unfair advantage, how come?"

I do think IIHF should do a better job reaching out to the North American audience. WHC should be held in Canada and USA way more often than it is, effort should be made to schedule Canada and USA games later in the evening, there should be some convergence in the rules between IIHF and NHL, etc.
I do not know though what Hockey Canada does about that. E.g., do they apply to have the upcoming WHC in Canada every year and IIHF turns them down every year, or do they just ignore WHC (and then it's no wonder Europe always gets it)?

Yet, the fair arrangement for WHC will have to be somewhat Eurocentric, just because there are more hockey countries in Europe than in North America. If you treat everyone fairly, Euros are more likely to have their way most of the time.

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05-22-2012, 04:19 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The IIHF has no one to blame but themselves for this loss of prestige as they continue to follow a Eurocentric agenda for the WHC.
Most of the teams participating are european(or semi-european), so which agenda should they side with, that of 14 nations, or that of 2? What's easier, for the NHL to start and finish a month earlier, or for every league in europe to change schedule(so that they don't finish 2 months before the WHC) and move the WHC to summer(when hockey needs to compete with other sports) ?

And on top of that, you have the NHL contemplating whether or not to stop the league even for the olympics, complaining about how much money it costs them...unreal.

Sorry, but this isn't even a debate.


Last edited by ufon68: 05-22-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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05-22-2012, 04:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Zuluss View Post
On the other hand, Hockey Canada can only blame themselves for not working things out with NHL and IIHF and for not persuading the stars to come over if they are not playing in the playoffs.

I admit that there are things that could have been done better by IIHF (the Canada game in the quarters starting at 5 am ET is one thing that comes to mind), but WHC is still way fairer than World Cup or WJC, which are run by Canada. That makes me think that most of complaints about IIHF being Eurocentric are actually something like "it does not bend over for Canada and does not hand us any unfair advantage, how come?"

I do think IIHF should do a better job reaching out to the North American audience. WHC should be held in Canada and USA way more often than it is, effort should be made to schedule Canada and USA games later in the evening, there should be some convergence in the rules between IIHF and NHL, etc.
I do not know though what Hockey Canada does about that. E.g., do they apply to have the upcoming WHC in Canada every year and IIHF turns them down every year, or do they just ignore WHC (and then it's no wonder Europe always gets it)?

Yet, the fair arrangement for WHC will have to be somewhat Eurocentric, just because there are more hockey countries in Europe than in North America. If you treat everyone fairly, Euros are more likely to have their way most of the time.
Canada had the World Championships in 2008. IIHF stands for International Ice Hockey Federation. It's like the UN of hockey. It's designed to give a place for all the various hockey nations. Canada is on the "Security Council" but so are Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech. It's supposed to rotate every year. The NHL is one league. The schedule of it works better for the KHL, SEL, SM-Liiga, Czech Extraliga. If Canada doesn't really want to be a part of the IIHF that's it's call. It is the biggest and there's a ton of money. USA is Canada-lite. There's nothing inherently "unfair" about it though.

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05-22-2012, 04:56 PM
  #86
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I played in the soviet hockey system in the 80s as a kid and a young teen, i can tell you that we never ever even gave two thoughts to winning the Stanley cup or what it even was. It was nothing. We didn't know about it. All we ever dreamed about was putting on the red sweater and winning at the international level. To play and beat the worlds best players from strange, hostile and exotic places. Nothing is more important to a Russian hockey player then wearing that red sweater.

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05-22-2012, 04:58 PM
  #87
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The IIHF created the Triple Gold Club to acknowledge players that have won the three most sacred prizes in hockey: Olympic Gold, World Championship, Gold and the Stanley Cup.

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05-22-2012, 04:59 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The best 4 club teams in the world are still playing hockey, and thus by definition the WHC cannot be best-on-best. .

Except those teams aren't the best 4 teams in Hockey. Those teams are very good but the best i'm not convinced, huge parity in the NHL, favorable matchups, a hot streak, luck and hot goaltending all play a part to those teams being there. All top teams are very close to eachother and if Canada and its players would have wanted it could have sent a much better team (Crosby, Stamkos, Toews and plenty of others stars in theory were all available to play in the WC)

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05-22-2012, 05:00 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The best 4 club teams in the world are still playing hockey, and thus by definition the WHC cannot be best-on-best. Certain nations are always going to be missing key players. Imagine if the World Cup of Soccer was being played without players from the Champions League semi-finals (Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, and Barcelona) and all the players on the four quarter finals teams were coming off of hard fought matches. Do you think that Spain would still have won or Argentina would not be severely crippled by the loss of Messi?

The IIHF has no one to blame but themselves for this loss of prestige as they continue to follow a Eurocentric agenda for the WHC.
No it's the best 4 teams in one domestic league. It's not like having Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, and Barcelona. It's more like not having Real Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia and Athletico. It's a shame not to have some good players but it doesn't mean much if they aren't there.

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05-22-2012, 05:18 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
I played in the soviet hockey system in the 80s as a kid and a young teen, i can tell you that we never ever even gave two thoughts to winning the Stanley cup or what it even was. It was nothing. We didn't know about it. All we ever dreamed about was putting on the red sweater and winning at the international level. To play and beat the worlds best players from strange, hostile and exotic places. Nothing is more important to a Russian hockey player then wearing that red sweater.
Our point exactly. It's different for a Canadian hockey player. Not to mention there was no league at the time that compared to the NHL in Russia.

Virtually the only thing was the Red Army team.


Last edited by Sens91: 05-22-2012 at 06:34 PM.
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05-22-2012, 05:23 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by VladNYC View Post
I played in the soviet hockey system in the 80s as a kid and a young teen, i can tell you that we never ever even gave two thoughts to winning the Stanley cup or what it even was. It was nothing. We didn't know about it. All we ever dreamed about was putting on the red sweater and winning at the international level. To play and beat the worlds best players from strange, hostile and exotic places. Nothing is more important to a Russian hockey player then wearing that red sweater.
On the other hand, I know numerous NHL players and most of them could care less about winning the WHC. It is considered a "loser" tournament for players who did not win the Stanley Cup. These are guys that have played with serious injuries (e.g., broken ribs, cracked vertebrae, serious meniscus tears in their knees) just to have a chance at winning the Stanley Cup. Overall, it is no surprise that hockey players from different backgrounds/nations place different values on each competition.

North American players put little value in the WHC because it is held during the NHL playoffs. I could personally care less when it is held, but it is obvious North American players and fans disregard the value of the WHC in its current format. If the IIHF wants to keep the format the same (a tournament that is valued in Europe by players and fans alike, and yet remains an afterthought in North America) then by all means they are free to keep the schedule the same. At the same time because the WHC has a poor following in NA, the NHL has no incentive to make any scheduling changes for the IIHF. Should the IIHF makes changes and the WHC gains wider acceptance in NA (meaning more revenue available to be shared) then the NHL would definitely be a more willing partner.

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05-22-2012, 05:35 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
On the other hand, I know numerous NHL players and most of them could care less about winning the WHC. It is considered a "loser" tournament for players who did not win the Stanley Cup. These are guys that have played with serious injuries (e.g., broken ribs, cracked vertebrae, serious meniscus tears in their knees) just to have a chance at winning the Stanley Cup. Overall, it is no surprise that hockey players from different backgrounds/nations place different values on each competition.

North American players put little value in the WHC because it is held during the NHL playoffs. I could personally care less when it is held, but it is obvious North American players and fans disregard the value of the WHC in its current format. If the IIHF wants to keep the format the same (a tournament that is valued in Europe by players and fans alike, and yet remains an afterthought in North America) then by all means they are free to keep the schedule the same. At the same time because the WHC has a poor following in NA, the NHL has no incentive to make any scheduling changes for the IIHF. Should the IIHF makes changes and the WHC gains wider acceptance in NA (meaning more revenue available to be shared) then the NHL would definitely be a more willing partner.

Problem is, (scheduling wise) there is no viable alternative.

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05-22-2012, 06:06 PM
  #93
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Problem is IIHF made step further as has been mentioned. NHL still not, not to mention even issues with olympic games.

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05-22-2012, 06:29 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Sergei DRW View Post
It has a lot to do with the emergence of KHL and youth league MHL. Soon, many of the Russian stars will think twice about crossing the pond and become labeled a "heartless russian".

Look at Ovechkin, he basically gives his all the ice and he is still under an avalanche of critics because the rest of the team doesn't know how to score a goal in the playoffs.
The good thing, he has a thick skin for this media bull.
Ovechkin did not give his all. When you are one of the highest paid players in the NHL and you don't preform you are gonna get it from the media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
And that's a good thing. I believe NHL has to get a slap to the face.
Russia NT continued success simultaneously with more and more international losses of Canada probably creates doubts about untouchable status of NHL as the best league.
It will affect revenues in NHL. No. Not in Canada, but in USA. Then maybe Gary Bettman understands that non-supporting of international hockey, whole hockey in big picture was a mistake.
What?

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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Problem is IIHF made step further as has been mentioned. NHL still not, not to mention even issues with olympic games.
What?

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05-22-2012, 09:02 PM
  #95
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As a player and as a human being, you are representing your country, your are best of the best that of your people, in the tournament that happens once in 4 years, you might never have a chance to represent the whole nation in your entire life... or the Cup,... as hard as it is to get if you don't - you will have chance at it next year... This shouldn't be even a debate.

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05-22-2012, 09:06 PM
  #96
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The highest prize in hockey is Olympic gold.
absolutely false. The highest prize without question is the Stanley Cup.....

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05-22-2012, 09:08 PM
  #97
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An athlete should always seek the highest prize. In hockey, that prize is the Stanley Cup. Any hockey athlete who wants to win the WHC gold over the Stanley Cup is being irrational.


agreed. We are talking professionals here.

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05-22-2012, 09:12 PM
  #98
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absolutely false. The highest prize without question is the Stanley Cup.....
That is like saying EPL champion > CL winner..

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05-22-2012, 09:13 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
North American players put little value in the WHC because it is held during the NHL playoffs. I could personally care less when it is held, but it is obvious North American players and fans disregard the value of the WHC in its current format. If the IIHF wants to keep the format the same (a tournament that is valued in Europe by players and fans alike, and yet remains an afterthought in North America) then by all means they are free to keep the schedule the same. At the same time because the WHC has a poor following in NA, the NHL has no incentive to make any scheduling changes for the IIHF. Should the IIHF makes changes and the WHC gains wider acceptance in NA (meaning more revenue available to be shared) then the NHL would definitely be a more willing partner.
We have a vicious circle here. What are the incentives of IIHF to change the schedule? They get more viewing in Europe than Stanley Cup gets in North America, they think their timing is perfect (after the soccer season ends but before everyone goes on vacation). It's not like they miss Canada or US dearly.
Now, if US and Canada showed more interest, more potential profit and sent better teams, then yes, IIHF will probably start to care about what Canada thinks.
Right now, if they reschedule for June, they will hurt their revenue, alienate many European leagues and hockey associations, and Canadians will probably keep sending inferior squads and will not watch anyway.

I am still hoping that when the money interests are deadlocked, the national pride will save the day and Canadians will get tired of their team being kicked out in the quarters for several years in a row, while the country has all it takes to compete for gold and even more.

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05-23-2012, 02:11 AM
  #100
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Every league in europe(and the world?) have breaks for qualificationgames to EC and WC during the seasons. Why is this so impossible for the NHL?

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