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Old
05-22-2012, 07:28 PM
  #76
TheJuxtaposer
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
Funny thing is, I'd strongly consider that Thornton deal, assuming Tank signs. I went from disliking Thornton due to personal bias to kinda wanting him in the Note in 5 games. Well done Joe.

For the record, I might get slaughtered for this, but that list is pretty bang on, though I'd take out a couple guys. Kopitar is close, but the beauty of LA is that they have 3 players who are close (Quick is probably in it, but it's hard figuring goalie value) so measuring them is difficult.

And for the Nabokov argument, if it wasn't him, then you didn't have one, imo. Best player on your team, sure, but not franchise cornerstone.
Joe's hard to hate once you get to know him a bit. I don't know about other Sharks fans, but Schwartz and Oshie are the types of players that I'd love in a deal for him. Schwartz-Couture-Oshie could certainly be a very good long-term 1b line.

And man, **** LA. I love Kopitar and have for a while. I think he's a bit overrated on HF right now because he's playing so well, but he's very streaky. If you pay attention to him closely like I do, he goes frigid every January-February and Kings fans throw him under the bus. I don't know if he's a "franchise player" by your definition, but considering he has Doughty and Quick, he doesn't have to be.

By your strict definition, I suppose we didn't have a true "francise player", but Marleau was the closest thing we had, and we made it to the WCF in 2004 with him as our best forward.

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05-22-2012, 07:29 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Until I see a reason to believe that he will, I have no reason to buy that he is on the decline or is going to.
09-10: 82 games, 44 goals, 39 assists, 83 points

10-11: 82 games, 37 goals, 36 assists, 73 points

11-12: 82 games, 30 goals, 34 assists, 64 points.

I don't like the "point to stat" arguments, but that looks like a decline to me.

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05-22-2012, 07:31 PM
  #78
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Are you saying Marleau was "close" to being a franchise player when he had 57 points and 28 goals on the season?

It's quite obvious to anyone who follows hockey closely that the only reason Marleau ever put up the kind of numbers he did was because he got to play with one of the best playmakers in the league.

Although...I guess it's quite often that guys have their breakout seasons in their 8th year in the league.... LoL

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05-22-2012, 07:32 PM
  #79
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Yikes, it's just a tiny bit more complex than that man. As Juxt said, ELC and RFA deals do not count. His numbers have not been 'on the decline lately' he had a bad season like most everyone on the team did.

Also you can't count cap circumventing deals, Marleau doesn't have one, Sharks won't use them, and I for one hate them.

Marleau is absolutely an 'elite' player. He's not a generational player, but he is in the elite class of players.

1) http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=F&limit=25

20th highest salary

http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=F&limit=25

15th highest Cap hit

No; it's not "a tiny bit more complicated than that".
It's right there in black and white, easy as day to read.
Again; quit trying to quantify a bad contract.

2) Marleau has gone from 83 points to 73 points to 64 points over the last 3 years.
That looks like a steady decline to me.

3) No; Marleau is not an "Elite" player.
He's never been higher than 14th in the League in points and has only cracked the top 10 in goal scoring twice, with 4th being his highest mark in a year where a lot of players who have traditionally ranked above him missed substantial time(Vanek, Dan Sedin, Kovy, Gaborik, Malkin). Marleau had a good 3 year run in the goal scoring category, but he was never an "Elite" offensive player. Everybody knew that Thornton was inflating his numbers.

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05-22-2012, 07:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
09-10: 82 games, 44 goals, 39 assists, 83 points

10-11: 82 games, 37 goals, 36 assists, 73 points

11-12: 82 games, 30 goals, 34 assists, 64 points.

I don't like the "point to stat" arguments, but that looks like a decline to me.
This season is an aberration, the entire team was down statistically, terrible team strategy. Last season was a 'standard' season for him, closely matches the rest of his career.

Just because a guy has one great season doesn't mean everything after that is a decline. He just had a great season that year.

He's a 30 goal, 75 point, defensively excellent player. I fully expect him to hit those averages again next season.

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05-22-2012, 07:35 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Are you saying Marleau was "close" to being a franchise player when he had 57 points and 28 goals on the season?

It's quite obvious to anyone who follows hockey closely that the only reason Marleau ever put up the kind of numbers he did was because he got to play with one of the best playmakers in the league.

Although...I guess it's quite often that guys have their breakout seasons in their 8th year in the league.... LoL
Yay... Just what we needed.

It's quite obvious to anyone who has ever watched more than 2 Sharks games that Marleau had his career season playing with two rookies, not with Thornton. And it's even more obvious to anyone that watches them that Thornton has very little chemistry with Marleau and targets his right wing.

And I suppose it's a problem that Marleau peaked at 31? Personally, I think it's great. Nice change from players flaming out after they turn 23.

So thank you for continuing to promote your crusade against the Sharks. Duly noted.

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05-22-2012, 07:36 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=F&limit=25

20th highest salary

http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=F&limit=25

15th highest Cap hit

No; it's not "a tiny bit more complicated than that".
It's right there in black and white, easy as day to read.
Again; quit trying to quantify a bad contract.

2) Marleau has gone from 83 points to 73 points to 64 points over the last 3 years.
That looks like a steady decline to me.

3) No; Marleau is not an "Elite" player.
He's never been higher than 14th in the League in points and has only cracked the top 10 in goal scoring twice, with 4th being his highest mark in a year where a lot of players who have traditionally ranked above him missed substantial time(Vanek, Dan Sedin, Kovy, Gaborik, Malkin). Marleau had a good 3 year run in the goal scoring category, but he was never an "Elite" offensive player. Everybody knew that Thornton was inflating his numbers.
So Iginla is not an elite offensive player either eh? Or Nash? How about Henrik/Daniel Sedin are they elite because they hit huge numbers under insanely sheltered match ups?

Marleau see's top competition, always. He puts up 30+ goals consistently. He is a top-10 goal scorer since the lockout. If he's not elite, I don't know what to tell you man.

Your cap hit argument is so ridiculous I'm dont responding to it. If you don't understand the difference between an ELC/RFA contract and a UFA contract, I don't know how to help you.

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05-22-2012, 07:37 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
This season is an aberration, the entire team was down statistically, terrible team strategy. Last season was a 'standard' season for him, closely matches the rest of his career.

Just because a guy has one great season doesn't mean everything after that is a decline. He just had a great season that year.

He's a 30 goal, 75 point, defensively excellent player. I fully expect him to hit those averages again next season.

So none of the Cap hit's or salaries above Marleau's count and now his decline in stats don't count.

Got it.

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05-22-2012, 07:37 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
1) http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=F&limit=25

20th highest salary

http://capgeek.com/leaders.php?type=...ion=F&limit=25

15th highest Cap hit

No; it's not "a tiny bit more complicated than that".
It's right there in black and white, easy as day to read.
Again; quit trying to quantify a bad contract.

2) Marleau has gone from 83 points to 73 points to 64 points over the last 3 years.
That looks like a steady decline to me.

3) No; Marleau is not an "Elite" player.
He's never been higher than 14th in the League in points and has only cracked the top 10 in goal scoring twice, with 4th being his highest mark in a year where a lot of players who have traditionally ranked above him missed substantial time(Vanek, Dan Sedin, Kovy, Gaborik, Malkin). Marleau had a good 3 year run in the goal scoring category, but he was never an "Elite" offensive player. Everybody knew that Thornton was inflating his numbers.
You clearly have no idea how contracts work in the NHL.

He's had 5 straight seasons of scoring 30 goals. How many other players in the league can say that? That puts him in, yes, elite company.

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05-22-2012, 07:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Joe's hard to hate once you get to know him a bit. I don't know about other Sharks fans, but Schwartz and Oshie are the types of players that I'd love in a deal for him. Schwartz-Couture-Oshie could certainly be a very good long-term 1b line.

And man, **** LA. I love Kopitar and have for a while. I think he's a bit overrated on HF right now because he's playing so well, but he's very streaky. If you pay attention to him closely like I do, he goes frigid every January-February and Kings fans throw him under the bus. I don't know if he's a "franchise player" by your definition, but considering he has Doughty and Quick, he doesn't have to be.

By your strict definition, I suppose we didn't have a true "francise player", but Marleau was the closest thing we had, and we made it to the WCF in 2004 with him as our best forward.
The trade would be hard to pull the trigger on, but damn is it close. I think the problem is a combo of a bigger need at LHD and that Thornton isn't very young, and I don't want to risk shortening our window.

And yeah, LA set this up perfectly. And Mike Richards isn't on that top area, but he is in the Backes one, maybe above it, and that's a good tier.

And, honestly, the Marleau discussion mine as well finish. I think it comes down to him having much more value in San Jose then he does in St. Louis, because good player or not, Blues fans don't view him as a player worth the money he makes, esspecially for us, who made the 2nd round without paying anywhere near that money (though we will when Petro is up)

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05-22-2012, 07:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Novacain View Post
The trade would be hard to pull the trigger on, but damn is it close. I think the problem is a combo of a bigger need at LHD and that Thornton isn't very young, and I don't want to risk shortening our window.

And yeah, LA set this up perfectly. And Mike Richards isn't on that top area, but he is in the Backes one, maybe above it, and that's a good tier.

And, honestly, the Marleau discussion mine as well finish. I think it comes down to him having much more value in San Jose then he does in St. Louis, because good player or not, Blues fans don't view him as a player worth the money he makes, esspecially for us, who made the 2nd round without paying anywhere near that money (though we will when Petro is up)
That's because you have had the luxury of a lot of high picks we have not. The highest we have picked in the last decade is 9th, for Couture, and we had to trade up for that. It's easy to have a low payroll when you have a lot of great prospects, we do not.

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05-22-2012, 07:43 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Hahhaa, "crusade against the Sharks"

You sound like a Leafs fan

Marleau got 20 goals and 24 assists playing on the Power play in his best statistical season. Please stop embarrassing yourself and pretending like Thornton coming didn't have a huge impact on him.

Unless you're referring to his 2009/2010 season as his "career season" which would be false...but even then I'd be curious as to who the rookie linemates he played with all season were.
In 2005-2006, Marleau scored 86 points playing with Milan Michalek and Steven Bernier.

Of course Thornton had a big impact. But he didn't 'make' Marleau, as you are fond of claiming.

And if you'd stop showing up in every Sharks thread to demean them, my statement would be much less ridiculous. Unless you do this to every team, in which case,

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05-22-2012, 07:44 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In 2005-2006, Marleau scored 86 points playing with Milan Michalek and Steven Bernier.

Of course Thornton had a big impact. But he didn't 'make' Marleau, as you are fond of claiming.

And if you'd stop showing up in every Sharks thread to demean them, my statement would be much less ridiculous. Unless you do this to every team, in which case,
I found an excellent solution to that guy, you might consider doing the same.

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05-22-2012, 07:45 PM
  #89
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The trade would be hard to pull the trigger on, but damn is it close. I think the problem is a combo of a bigger need at LHD and that Thornton isn't very young, and I don't want to risk shortening our window.

And yeah, LA set this up perfectly. And Mike Richards isn't on that top area, but he is in the Backes one, maybe above it, and that's a good tier.

And, honestly, the Marleau discussion mine as well finish. I think it comes down to him having much more value in San Jose then he does in St. Louis, because good player or not, Blues fans don't view him as a player worth the money he makes, esspecially for us, who made the 2nd round without paying anywhere near that money (though we will when Petro is up)
Yeah, I'm definitely done debating this. Like I say, Marleau has much more value to SJ, who has never had a life-time, home-grown star.

Out of curiosity, how much do you think you'll be paying Petro?

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That's because you have had the luxury of a lot of high picks we have not. The highest we have picked in the last decade is 9th, for Couture, and we had to trade up for that. It's easy to have a low payroll when you have a lot of great prospects, we do not.
6th, Milan Michalek.

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I found an excellent solution to that guy, you might consider doing the same.
Okay.

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05-22-2012, 07:46 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In 2005-2006, Marleau scored 86 points playing with Milan Michalek and Steven Bernier.

Of course Thornton had a big impact. But he didn't 'make' Marleau, as you are fond of claiming.

And if you'd stop showing up in every Sharks thread to demean them, my statement would be much less ridiculous. Unless you do this to every team, in which case,
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Yeah, I'm definitely done debating this. Like I say, Marleau has much more value to SJ, who has never had a life-time, home-grown star.

Out of curiosity, how much do you think you'll be paying Petro?



6th, Milan Michalek.
Oops, good call, my bad. Point still stands though, Blues have had a lot higher picks over that time.

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05-22-2012, 07:50 PM
  #91
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Oops, good call, my bad. Point still stands though, Blues have had a lot higher picks over that time.
True. We've never had the chance since the lockout to draft a Johnson or a Pietrangelo, or grab three players like Berglund, Perron, and Cole in the same first round, or even to get a guy like Tarasenko or Schwartz.

But I digress. It's our time to start stock-piling picks. And if the Blues win the Cup before us, so be it. They're an older franchise, they've had the Great One, and their fans have been waiting a much longer time.

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05-22-2012, 07:50 PM
  #92
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Setoguchi was 8th, wasn't he? The only high pick we have left is Pietrangelo. Everybody else is in the 20s or later.

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05-22-2012, 07:50 PM
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That's because you have had the luxury of a lot of high picks we have not. The highest we have picked in the last decade is 9th, for Couture, and we had to trade up for that. It's easy to have a low payroll when you have a lot of great prospects, we do not.
The Blues have drafted in the Top 10 twice in the last 20 years. In fact, only 1 player on the Blues was taken with a Top 10 draft pick. The Blues building blocks we are set around at forward (Berglund, Oshie, and Perron) were drafted 25th, 24th, and 26th respectivly.

We haven't had tons and tons of high picks, we just almost always get good value with our top ones.

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Yeah, I'm definitely done debating this. Like I say, Marleau has much more value to SJ, who has never had a life-time, home-grown star.

Out of curiosity, how much do you think you'll be paying Petro?
Depends on next season, but if negotations started today, I'm guessing it would be Doughty money, probably a little higher (keep in mind Doughty had a "meh"-ish year before he got that contract). My hope would be he doesn't go all money hungry and tries to give the Blues a break but...

Also, just cause I love this factoid: The last time the Blues drafted a forward with a top 10 pick, it was taking Rod Brind'Amour 9th overall in 1988. 6 months before I was born, for the record.


Last edited by Novacain: 05-22-2012 at 08:01 PM.
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05-22-2012, 08:10 PM
  #94
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Marleau has 5 straight years with 30 or more goals. Not a lot of guys can say that. he is also a great 2-way forward.

People listen too much to what idiots like Roenick say instead of observing him on their own. The guy has a higher GPG average in the playoffs than he doesn in the regular season, yet, people do to him what the do to Thornton and single him out for the TEAM not getting the job done.

He has more value to SJ than he does to any other team. He isn't going to get back what he is worth and I don't see him wanting to ever leave the area. I can understand the concerns due to his age and 1 bad playoff series, but Backes struggled in both series this year and people have no concerns with him.

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05-22-2012, 08:15 PM
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Marleau has 5 straight years with 30 or more goals. Not a lot of guys can say that. he is also a great 2-way forward.

People listen too much to what idiots like Roenick say instead of observing him on their own. The guy has a higher GPG average in the playoffs than he doesn in the regular season, yet, people do to him what the do to Thornton and single him out for the TEAM not getting the job done.

He has more value to SJ than he does to any other team. He isn't going to get back what he is worth and I don't see him wanting to ever leave the area. I can understand the concerns due to his age and 1 bad playoff series, but Backes struggled in both series this year and people have no concerns with him.
I don't think Backes really "struggled" in the 1st round. His first and primary job was to to be a shutdown forward and limit the Sharks scoring chances. In that, he did his job.

And name a Blue who had a good series against the Kings. The only one I would say is Russell.

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05-22-2012, 08:22 PM
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09-10: 82 games, 44 goals, 39 assists, 83 points

10-11: 82 games, 37 goals, 36 assists, 73 points

11-12: 82 games, 30 goals, 34 assists, 64 points.

I don't like the "point to stat" arguments, but that looks like a decline to me.
That looks like a decline to you because you don't bother to do anything more than look at those numbers. If that's all you want to look at with regards to judging a player then I feel sorry for you because that's just not that bright.

And now we have someone else trying to make it out like Marleau is just a product of Thornton. We know where that's leading. Everyone worth a damn when it comes to their opinion knows that isn't the case.

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05-22-2012, 09:27 PM
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Correlation doesn't mean causation, my friend. It may seem basic and concrete but it is misleading. It is also misleading to state that I generalized about the Blues. I didn't say one word about them.
Which is why I made an edit to point out I made a mistake. And sorry, but you can argue till your Blue in face, but you won't convince me a guy making 6.9 mill whose points have been on the down slope, like it or, over the age of 30 is an attractive get for a team on a budget. If that's what you are even going on about anymore.

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05-22-2012, 09:34 PM
  #98
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That's because you have had the luxury of a lot of high picks we have not. The highest we have picked in the last decade is 9th, for Couture, and we had to trade up for that. It's easy to have a low payroll when you have a lot of great prospects, we do not.

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Oops, good call, my bad. Point still stands though, Blues have had a lot higher picks over that time.

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True. We've never had the chance since the lockout to draft a Johnson or a Pietrangelo, or grab three players like Berglund, Perron, and Cole in the same first round, or even to get a guy like Tarasenko or Schwartz.

I think you two are correct in your conclusions, but incorrect in your reasoning. The Blues have certainly had the better prospect pool in recent years, but I think your reasoning of superior draft position is being overstated in this case.

The average 1st round draft position of the Blues in the last 10 drafts is 17.08, compared to the Sharks average of 17.77. The Sharks have made 3 selections in the top 10 during that period, compared to 2 top 10 selections for the Blues.

I think the difference in drafting success for these two franchises has been one of proficiency, not one of opportunity.

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05-22-2012, 09:36 PM
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Which is why I made an edit to point out I made a mistake. And sorry, but you can argue till your Blue in face, but you won't convince me a guy making 6.9 mill whose points have been on the down slope, like it or, over the age of 30 is an attractive get for a team on a budget. If that's what you are even going on about anymore.
I never cared whether the Blues are attracted to Marleau or anyone else for that matter. I simply don't care for people, and this isn't you, who deliberately mislead people for whatever reason they may have. I may have been harsh in my words to you but your judgments thus far on this particular matter have been based on points. That's a very short-sighted way to pass judgment on hockey players. Players bring more than just points to the table and a lot of other things factor into those points like luck, system play, among many other things.

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05-22-2012, 09:50 PM
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I never cared whether the Blues are attracted to Marleau or anyone else for that matter. I simply don't care for people, and this isn't you, who deliberately mislead people for whatever reason they may have. I may have been harsh in my words to you but your judgments thus far on this particular matter have been based on points. That's a very short-sighted way to pass judgment on hockey players. Players bring more than just points to the table and a lot of other things factor into those points like luck, system play, among many other things.
And that is true enough. But to completely discount them is a mistake as well. There were some Blues fans who credited Boyes downfall on "puckluck" for a while. Now, obviously, that was a much more extreme case, but you get what I mean. And the counterpoint of Selanne in this thread hasn't really helped, since it's had Sharks fans comparing Marleau to the exception, not the rule.

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