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Offseason Discussion Part III (Contract/FA chart in post #1)

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Old
05-22-2012, 05:56 PM
  #951
Jacob
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
In my opinion, Tangradi and Jeffrey aren't 4th line players. With their age and potential, they can't spend time on the 4th line
They have nothing to prove in the AHL (and have to clear waivers) and I don't see any room for them in the top-6 (if the Penguins sign a top-6 winger in free agency).

But that doesn't mean they're doomed to play 6 minutes a night all season. Injuries happen and they'll get bigger minutes.. Tangradi can see powerplay time and Jeffrey can kill penalties.

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05-22-2012, 06:05 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Fleury's played 65+ the last three years & it's resulted in what? A couple 16th best best team trophies?

2 years with a goalie who wins you a cup>10 years with one that doesn't.
How many more Cups has Thomas won than Fleury?
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
It was apparent that we missed those types of players so they are worth it to a point. Jeffrey & Tangradi are not 4th line players & it would be a mistake to cast them as such.
This I can agree with. Cooke may be overpaid to play on the 4th line, but he'd fit the role of 4th liner/PK specialist pretty well. I don't know how I feel about Tangradi - Jeffrey - TK as a 3rd line if Staal is moved to the top 6. Tangradi and Jeffrey both on the third line would make it a bit more bearable to slightly overpay a 4th liner or two. I'd be ok with one or the other on the 4th line, but I really don't think Bylsma would know how to use a "skill" 4th line of Tangradi - Vitale - Jeffrey. That is not a Dan Bylsma 4th line.

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05-22-2012, 07:07 PM
  #953
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Fleury's played 65+ the last three years & it's resulted in what? A couple 16th best best team trophies?

2 years with a goalie who wins you a cup>10 years with one that doesn't.
It this a serious post? You do know that MAF won a Cup with the Pens, right? lol

You're delusional if you think that this team has a better chance to win a Cup in 2 years with a 38 year-old Thomas than they do in the next 5+ they'll have with MAF.

And I want you to be honest here, do you think that the Pens would have beaten the Flyers w/ Thomas in net this year?

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05-22-2012, 07:12 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
In my opinion, Tangradi and Jeffrey aren't 4th line players. With their age and potential, they can't spend time on the 4th line, I think Jeffrey is ready for a 3rd line center position in the NHL and Tangradi should be a 3rd liner ready to make the jump to the top 6.

I doubt either would get that position on the Penguins, maybe if moves are made, but the moves that would be made are the moves I would rather Shero didn't do. (Ex: Staal trade)

I would rather sign Glass for the 4th line because that's his role in the NHL and he would probably make the same as Asham did, $775,000 or less.

And I'm not saying it will happen, but with Sullivan's salary off the books, salary cap rising to $70M, a potential Martin trade, maybe a Cooke trade, we could maybe try to sign Parise?

Parise-Crosby-Dupuis
Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
Tangradi-Staal-Kennedy
Glass-Vitale-Adams

Suter would be more beneficial giving up on Martin and Cooke, two defensive pieces.

I can't believe some of the call for more wingers when they're the top scoring team without that added presence of a Zack Parise.

Goals for is not a need. Plus that also means Staal won't be here, another defensive piece.

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05-22-2012, 07:22 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
It this a serious post? You do know that MAF won a Cup with the Pens, right? lol

You're delusional if you think that this team has a better chance to win a Cup in 2 years with a 38 year-old Thomas than they do in the next 5+ they'll have with MAF.

And I want you to be honest here, do you think that the Pens would have beaten the Flyers w/ Thomas in net this year?
It's obvious that you are one of those people who excuse MAF for everything. He had one of the worst playoff performances in the history of the NHL & some people still can't see that. Thomas is probably a top 5 goalie in this league.

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05-22-2012, 07:27 PM
  #956
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People need to let go of this Suter & Parise dream. Go look at every other teams board & they also think they are going to get them. It's going to be the same way with GM's. They are going to want top dollar.

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05-22-2012, 07:36 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Suter would be more beneficial giving up on Martin and Cooke, two defensive pieces.

I can't believe some of the call for more wingers when they're the top scoring team without that added presence of a Zack Parise.

Goals for is not a need. Plus that also means Staal won't be here, another defensive piece.
Parise is every bit as good at defense as Staal. He is just straight up better at hockey. Especially if we are talking about Staal on the wing. There is not a single situation where it would be better to have Staal playing wing than Parise.

I've said it a bunch of times now, people talk about wings because we currently have empty spots in our forward line-up that need filling while we have 9 or 10 NHL caliber defenseman signed or as RFA. If Staal ends up being traded we absolutely have to bring in another good forward. If Staal isn't traded we aren't signing anyone to 6 million dollars so the Suter/Parise talk is moot.

Given the choice of Parise and a decent defenseman or Suter and a decent winger, I take Parise and the decent defenseman without hesitation. Again, assuming Staal is gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
People need to let go of this Suter & Parise dream. Go look at every other teams board & they also think they are going to get them. It's going to be the same way with GM's. They are going to want top dollar.
this is very likely true, but they are going to sign somewhere. Why not hope it's with us.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 05-22-2012 at 07:42 PM.
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05-22-2012, 07:57 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
It's obvious that you are one of those people who excuse MAF for everything. He had one of the worst playoff performances in the history of the NHL & some people still can't see that. Thomas is probably a top 5 goalie in this league.
And it's obvious that you are one of those people who slam MAF for everything.

MAF was bad this POs, no one is denying that. But to put all the blame on MAF and give the D a free pass is crazy.

And I didn't forget that you couldn't answer my question: do you think that the Pens would have beaten the Flyers w/ Thomas in net this year?

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Old
05-22-2012, 07:59 PM
  #959
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Yeah, Parise on this team with a proper checking line is better than the 3C model. At least IMO.

But it is a pipe dream. Parise is in the ECF and unless that team is straight bankrupt, he'll resign.

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05-22-2012, 08:02 PM
  #960
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In today's NHL the 4th line is a checking line. The 3rd line, you need a pretty versatile pivot. A guy who can probably score you 20 goals, but plays awesome defense.

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05-22-2012, 08:07 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
In today's NHL the 4th line is a checking line. The 3rd line, you need a pretty versatile pivot. A guy who can probably score you 20 goals, but plays awesome defense.
Really wish Jeffrey was able to come back this year. He looks every bit the ideal third pivot. Would have gotten his shot this year to prove himself.

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Old
05-22-2012, 08:16 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Parise is every bit as good at defense as Staal. He is just straight up better at hockey. Especially if we are talking about Staal on the wing. There is not a single situation where it would be better to have Staal playing wing than Parise.

I've said it a bunch of times now, people talk about wings because we currently have empty spots in our forward line-up that need filling while we have 9 or 10 NHL caliber defenseman signed or as RFA. If Staal ends up being traded we absolutely have to bring in another good forward. If Staal isn't traded we aren't signing anyone to 6 million dollars so the Suter/Parise talk is moot.

Given the choice of Parise and a decent defenseman or Suter and a decent winger, I take Parise and the decent defenseman without hesitation. Again, assuming Staal is gone.
Why not. We can keep Staal and sign Suter/Parise for 6M if we can trade Martin, which I think it would not be a problem.

IMO, if Devils go to the Finals, I doubt Parise will hit FA.

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05-22-2012, 08:23 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by PenguinTommy View Post
Why not. We can keep Staal and sign Suter/Parise for 6M if we can trade Martin, which I think it would not be a problem.

IMO, if Devils go to the Finals, I doubt Parise will hit FA.
with the big guys needing new contracts soon I just don't see it. You're also dreaming if you think Parise/Suter are signing anywhere for 6M unless its for ridiculous term.

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05-22-2012, 08:23 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Suter would be more beneficial giving up on Martin and Cooke, two defensive pieces.

I can't believe some of the call for more wingers when they're the top scoring team without that added presence of a Zack Parise.

Goals for is not a need. Plus that also means Staal won't be here, another defensive piece.
News Flash......bleep bleep blah bleep....This just in, having a deep team wins championships, not having 6 superstars. Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Boston all won largely because of their 3rd lines and total team depth. Now back to your regular scheduled dreaming......bleep bleep blah bleep

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05-22-2012, 08:43 PM
  #965
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It's far from tunnel vision. There's a reason why it's considered the most important position in sports along with quarterback.

There are flaws on every team, because the salary cap doesn't allow any team to be perfect. What a great goalie does is mask the flaws of his team, and Fleury was so miserable that our flaws - which were really no greater or worse than several other teams - looked so much worse than they really were.

My huge problem with the Fleury defenders is that they try to fool you into believing that the chances against were so constant, that there was only so much any human being could do to prevent them, and that's when I call bull ****.

The reason being is that when I hear that, it's like I'm being told that games 2, 3 and 5 for example would have ended with the Pens allowing 14 goals instead of 8 were it not for Fleury. But my question is the following:

What were the big saves Fleury made in those games? In games 2 and 3 in particular, where the pressure was supposedly so constant, the defense so horrible, that the Flyers SHOULD have ended up with 15 goals instead of 8, show me one save of note that he made?

The fact is that he didn't. Every ****ing chance the Flyers had - and didn't have when you look at goals like the Talbot and Read goal in game 3 - they scored on. He was miserable against Montreal two years ago, and even worse in this series. This isn't even up for dispute.

I could put up with the Fleury defenders when it comes to just making excuses for him in particular, but then on top of it I have to listen to how none of the other goalies left are making any tough saves. That the defensive systems are allowing guys like Lundqvist and Smith to make routine saves, which is complete ****ing nonsense. I mean at that point, it's not even a difference of opinion, but an insult to my intelligence.
So you have more hockey knowledge and insight than the 2 best hockey players playing the game today? Because I'm sure that I've read many times, Sid and Geno singing only high praise for the goalie who plays behind them.

Now if Fleury is as bad as you say he is, would those 2 (Crosby and Malkin) really be okay with that? You don't think they would give Shero a little nudge and tell him that they would like him gone, if they truly believed that having Fleury as their goalie would prevent them from winning? Or do they just want him on the team because he's a nice guy?

If the 2 best players in the world like their goalie, and think that he gives them just as good of a chance to win as anyone else...well, let's just say that I'm more inclined to go with their opinion, rather than some random dude's opinion from the internet.

BTW...sorry for insulting your intelligence.

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Old
05-22-2012, 08:51 PM
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Suter would be more beneficial giving up on Martin and Cooke, two defensive pieces.

I can't believe some of the call for more wingers when they're the top scoring team without that added presence of a Zack Parise.

Goals for is not a need. Plus that also means Staal won't be here, another defensive piece.
The reason I mentioned Parise is because other than Beau Bennett, what kind of winger prospects do we have that can make this team better?

Suter would be cool, but with Letang, Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Niskanen, Strait, Bortuzzo, etc. We have young defensemen, now I'm not saying that those 1st 3 rookies I mentioned would be as good as Suter, but if we sign Suter, that's just a long term D roster spot taken.

We don't have much winger depth in terms of prospects and besides Neal, the rest of our top 6 wingers are 32 and older. Signing Parise would give us a younger, awesome winger that can also help if one of the Pens get injured (Crosby, Malkin, Neal, etc.) And I know goal scoring wasn't the Pens problem, but have you watched Parise play? He grinds it out, makes great passes, plays good defensively. He's not just an offensive player.

Also, losing Staal and Martin, they would be replaced my defensive pieces (Gaustad, Moore, Pahlsson, Jeffrey, etc. for 3rd line center, and Despres would likely take over for Martin.

Like I said, not saying it will happen, I don't expect it to happen, it's just for discussion. I like Staal and would rather keep him.

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05-22-2012, 08:55 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
The reason I mentioned Parise is because other than Beau Bennett, what kind of winger prospects do we have that can make this team better?

Suter would be cool, but with Letang, Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Niskanen, Strait, Bortuzzo, etc. We have young defensemen, now I'm not saying that those 1st 3 rookies I mentioned would be as good as Suter, but if we sign Suter, that's just a long term D roster spot taken.

We don't have much winger depth in terms of prospects and besides Neal, the rest of our top 6 wingers are 32 and older. Signing Parise would give us a younger, awesome winger that can also help if one of the Pens get injured (Crosby, Malkin, Neal, etc.) And I know goal scoring wasn't the Pens problem, but have you watched Parise play? He grinds it out, makes great passes, plays good defensively. He's not just an offensive player.

Also, losing Staal and Martin, they would be replaced my defensive pieces (Gaustad, Moore, Pahlsson, Jeffrey, etc. for 3rd line center, and Despres would likely take over for Martin.

Like I said, not saying it will happen, I don't expect it to happen, it's just for discussion. I like Staal and would rather keep him.
I guarantee that Borts, Strait, Harrington, Morrow, or Despres will be dealt for another Neal type player. There is your forward prospect. Somebody else is developing him for us and we can cherry pick which one we want.

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05-22-2012, 08:58 PM
  #968
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I want another big body in the top 6. Sid could use some help. Don't need Zach Parise.

On D, take Martin away, alter the way we defend and we'll be fine.

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05-22-2012, 09:00 PM
  #969
Ogrezilla
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I guarantee that Borts, Strait, Harrington, Morrow, or Despres will be dealt for another Neal type player. There is your forward prospect. Somebody else is developing him for us and we can cherry pick which one we want.
We could still probably use another one. We have 2 quality top-6 wingers right now, 3 if you count Dupuis. If you want to talk depth, you want Dupuis on your 3rd line.

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05-22-2012, 09:06 PM
  #970
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We could still probably use another one. We have 2 quality top-6 wingers right now, 3 if you count Dupuis. If you want to talk depth, you want Dupuis on your 3rd line.
Bennett?

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Old
05-22-2012, 09:15 PM
  #971
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Bennett?
Yea he's an option for next year.....

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05-22-2012, 10:19 PM
  #972
eXile59
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
And it's obvious that you are one of those people who slam MAF for everything.

MAF was bad this POs, no one is denying that. But to put all the blame on MAF and give the D a free pass is crazy.

And I didn't forget that you couldn't answer my question: do you think that the Pens would have beaten the Flyers w/ Thomas in net this year?
All I get done doing is blaming the defense. Yes I do think better goaltending would have beat the Flyers. There is no way we would have went any further playing defense like that but making some average saves would have went a long way in a series that was any ones to take.

I'm not saying Fleury is a bad goaltender even. I'm saying Thomas is better.

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05-22-2012, 10:26 PM
  #973
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I want another big body in the top 6. Sid could use some help. Don't need Zach Parise.

On D, take Martin away, alter the way we defend and we'll be fine.
Agreed, Martin is obsolete on this team, and having 6 d-men under contract (plus Niskanen) isn't allowing our strong group of defensive prospects to step into the lineup when they're ready to.

I'd move Martin and at least one other D (probably Lovejoy), and let Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, and Harrington compete for those remaining two spots. Obviously, it'd probably end up being Strait and Bortuzzo as they have to clear waivers, but still.. the whole point of building a strong pool of prospects is so you can have guys playing big minutes while still on entry-level contracts. In the cap world that's like striking gold, at some point we gotta let these guys play, otherwise what's the point of drafting and developing young talent?

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05-22-2012, 10:47 PM
  #974
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Agreed, Martin is obsolete on this team, and having 6 d-men under contract (plus Niskanen) isn't allowing our strong group of defensive prospects to step into the lineup when they're ready to.

I'd move Martin and at least one other D (probably Lovejoy), and let Despres, Strait, Bortuzzo, Morrow, and Harrington compete for those remaining two spots. Obviously, it'd probably end up being Strait and Bortuzzo as they have to clear waivers, but still.. the whole point of building a strong pool of prospects is so you can have guys playing big minutes while still on entry-level contracts. In the cap world that's like striking gold, at some point we gotta let these guys play, otherwise what's the point of drafting and developing young talent?
Especially when some of them have proven they can play very well at the professional level in the AHL for numerous years. It's not like we are talking about throwing in busts into the lineup. These are players with potential that are cheap and could be a big part of this teams future if given a chance. You'll never know if you don't.

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05-22-2012, 10:52 PM
  #975
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Its about filling Martin's minutes. Niskanen/Despres/Strait/Bortuzzo/Engelland can handle it IMO.

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