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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

What is more impressive, Canada's dominance in hockey or Brazil's in soccer?

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Old
05-23-2012, 07:29 AM
  #51
NewHopeForEveryone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
what if just looked at the number and quality of elite players that each country produces?
not again

whats the definition of quality player? because you are canadian i believe its "player that play in NHL"...wrong again...canada have 542411 registered players...slovakia 8280...
2012 IIHF MEN'S WORLD RANKING : Canada 5th...Slovakia 6th...doesnt that mean that slovakia is ultimate country that with so little number players is ONE place behind canada with half milion registered hockey players? isnt that proof of quality?

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05-23-2012, 07:40 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I think you would find that IIHF men's tournaments (WC and OG) have traditionally been much more biased in favour of Europeans than the CCup and WCup ever were the other way, but a lot of people don't want to admit that.
Yes, if you mean that WHC uses IIHF rink size, IIHF rules and unbiased referees. Referees may be bad (like in NHL, too) but a Russian referee is not thrown on ice when Russians are playing. If you think that using IIHF rules and rink size is biased, you need to remember that there's only one league in the world which doesn't use them.

Anyway, it worthless to argue about this but in my opinion World Cup isn't a legitimate best on best tournament.


Last edited by roto: 05-23-2012 at 07:48 AM.
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05-23-2012, 07:45 AM
  #53
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Canada's just the biggest fish in a very very small pond. Not comparable sports at all.

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05-23-2012, 08:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
the usa is more dominant in b-ball than we are in hockey, but there are a lot of similarities between their best on best performance and ours and also how they have done at the Basketball WC as compared to Canada at the IIHF WC.
If we're talking history-wise, or recent history, it's not even similar.

Basketball is not only a much bigger sport (pretty much team sport #2 in the world behind football), but the US - even today - holds a grip on the sport despite some nations closing the gap and even winning some best-on-best tournaments.

The US Dream Team's worst performance in the 92 Olympics was a 32 point win over Croatia in the finals.
Canada's hockey Dream Team got beaten by the Czechs and the Fins in its debut.
I really don't think you can compare the two.

USA's grip over basketball is unlike any other global sport out there (so that obviously means no "american" football, no Aussie rules football, etc.).

Canada has depth, as has been mentioned, but can only ice one team at a time.
And when it comes to making one team, and knowing that for big stretches in the last 20 years the then-best players in the world weren't even Canadian (be it Jagr, Hasek, Lidstrom, Forsberg, Ovechkin, etc.) I think Canada's bid for "dominance" is non-existant.

Both Canada and the US have done very poorly in both big tournaments held outside North America (Nagano, Turin).
Vice-versa, Euro-nations have done very poorly in NA ( SLC, Vancouver).

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05-23-2012, 08:16 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SvkInNHL View Post
not again

whats the definition of quality player? because you are canadian i believe its "player that play in NHL"...wrong again...canada have 542411 registered players...slovakia 8280...
2012 IIHF MEN'S WORLD RANKING : Canada 5th...Slovakia 6th...doesnt that mean that slovakia is ultimate country that with so little number players is ONE place behind canada with half milion registered hockey players? isnt that proof of quality?
I do consider the NHL to have the highest quality players in the world and thus performance in that league does mean a lot to me, much more so than WC resulst (and aasoicated IIHF rankings).

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05-23-2012, 08:18 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by roto View Post
Yes, if you mean that WHC uses IIHF rink size, IIHF rules and unbiased referees. Referees may be bad (like in NHL, too) but a Russian referee is not thrown on ice when Russians are playing. If you think that using IIHF rules and rink size is biased, you need to remember that there's only one league in the world which doesn't use them.

Anyway, it worthless to argue about this but in my opinion World Cup isn't a legitimate best on best tournament.
You are entitled to your opinion but the accusation that Canada cheated and fixed the tournaments via officiating is pathetic in my opinion.

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05-23-2012, 08:21 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Corto View Post
If we're talking history-wise, or recent history, it's not even similar.

Basketball is not only a much bigger sport (pretty much team sport #2 in the world behind football), but the US - even today - holds a grip on the sport despite some nations closing the gap and even winning some best-on-best tournaments.

The US Dream Team's worst performance in the 92 Olympics was a 32 point win over Croatia in the finals.
Canada's hockey Dream Team got beaten by the Czechs and the Fins in its debut.
I really don't think you can compare the two.

USA's grip over basketball is unlike any other global sport out there (so that obviously means no "american" football, no Aussie rules football, etc.).

Canada has depth, as has been mentioned, but can only ice one team at a time.
And when it comes to making one team, and knowing that for big stretches in the last 20 years the then-best players in the world weren't even Canadian (be it Jagr, Hasek, Lidstrom, Forsberg, Ovechkin, etc.) I think Canada's bid for "dominance" is non-existant.

Both Canada and the US have done very poorly in both big tournaments held outside North America (Nagano, Turin).
Vice-versa, Euro-nations have done very poorly in NA ( SLC, Vancouver).
I agree that the US is more dominant in b-ball, but they have also won 3 of their last 4 best on best and there have been times the best player was not American (eg S Nash).

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05-23-2012, 08:27 AM
  #58
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Brazil isn't dominating football, Spain is the best option in that argument.

If Canada was dominating, it would win WC every year. Who cares if there isn't every single best player? There are still awesome players from NHL, KHL and Europe.

In fact Canada has the best team on paper pretty much every year. With that squad Canada should be winning WC every year, but they aren't.

Yes, Canada is an awesome hockey country. But a dominant one? Win the next 2 WC's and Sochi and we'll talk.

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05-23-2012, 08:28 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roto View Post
Yes, if you mean that WHC uses IIHF rink size, IIHF rules and unbiased referees. Referees may be bad (like in NHL, too) but a Russian referee is not thrown on ice when Russians are playing. If you think that using IIHF rules and rink size is biased, you need to remember that there's only one league in the world which doesn't use them.

Anyway, it worthless to argue about this but in my opinion World Cup isn't a legitimate best on best tournament.
and you need to remember where the game was invented and that 1/3 of all registered players + those in the US grow up using that size

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05-23-2012, 08:28 AM
  #60
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Brazil domination from 1950 to 1970 was more impressing. Nowadays they don't dominate anymore.

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05-23-2012, 08:29 AM
  #61
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I don't know brazil's record, but Canada isn't that impressive. I'm not trying to take anything away from them, but how exactly are they dominating?

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05-23-2012, 08:30 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
You are entitled to your opinion but the accusation that Canada cheated and fixed the tournaments via officiating is pathetic in my opinion.
I don't think Canada fixed the tournaments but it doesn't mean the referees were unbiased. Refereeing in CC 1987 final 3 is a good example of it. In 2004 WC officiating wasn't so biased that I'd have something to complain (in the games that I saw).


Last edited by roto: 05-23-2012 at 08:42 AM.
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05-23-2012, 08:43 AM
  #63
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Mr. Kanadiensisk you are officially biggest troll ever...and ignorant

i quit here cos your arguments would kill me for sure...

the fact is that Canada is far away from dominating...point...

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05-23-2012, 09:06 AM
  #64
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Sometimes I think Mr. Kan. has a software that generates this kind of threads randolmly....

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05-23-2012, 09:13 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
what if just looked at the number and quality of elite players that each country produces?
Games are determined by the quality of the TEAM.
And playerquality is not equal with teamquality.

Canada just isnt a dominating team, even you have many superstars in the worlds greatest hockeyleague.

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05-23-2012, 09:17 AM
  #66
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Lol @ this thread.

The only thing Canada dominates in is chest pounding. Congratulations - #1 prize.


Cheers!

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05-23-2012, 09:29 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Robin929 View Post
Canada dominate hockey?

6 golds in whc in the last 70 years.
2 golds in olympics in that last 70 years.
15 golds at U20 since 77.

As you can see, Canada is far away from a dominant hockey nation. They are barley a top 3 nation. The only thing Canada could say they are best in (Looking through out the history) in hockey is U20 where they have in the last 12 years taking 5 golds which is really impressive. However, they havent won a U20 gold since 2009. So they dont even dominate at U20.But yeah, they are one of the best u20 countries, no doubt. But thats it.

Also, Brazil doesnt dominate football anymore :/


Jan-Ove Waldner. Your arguemnt is invalid.
Yeah, you should get your facts straight before looking like an idiot like that. The Olympics used to be amateur hockey players before 1998, so it doesn't really matters. The WHC is basically an afterthought here, our best players who aren't already in the playoffs usually skips it while it seems europeans countries seems to have better luck luring them. The only best on best tournament you listed is the U20 and as you pointed out we're dominating there.

Also, barely top 3 is laughable, we're by far the best country, any best on best event we don't win is usually because another team lucked out.

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05-23-2012, 09:33 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Lapa View Post
Brazil isn't dominating football, Spain is the best option in that argument.

If Canada was dominating, it would win WC every year. Who cares if there isn't every single best player? There are still awesome players from NHL, KHL and Europe.

In fact Canada has the best team on paper pretty much every year. With that squad Canada should be winning WC every year, but they aren't.

Yes, Canada is an awesome hockey country. But a dominant one? Win the next 2 WC's and Sochi and we'll talk.
Again with the World Hockey Championship, I guess I understand why this B tournament means so much to europeans as it's the only one they can compete with Canada.

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05-23-2012, 09:33 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post
any best on best event we don't win is usually because another team lucked out.


Hope you're joking.

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05-23-2012, 09:34 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post
any best on best event we don't win is usually because another team lucked out.
In Turin 6 different teams "lucked out", I guess.

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05-23-2012, 09:36 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post

Also, barely top 3 is laughable, we're by far the best country, any best on best event we don't win is usually because another team lucked out.
Lol.

Aaaand this is why most neutral fans usually cheer for someone else...
The average canadian hockey fans' arrogance is absolutely unmatched.

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05-23-2012, 09:38 AM
  #72
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Lol.

Aaaand this is why most neutral fans usually cheer for someone else...
The average canadian hockey fans' arrogance is absolutely unmatched.
As is the average european hockey fan's **** envy of Canada.

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05-23-2012, 09:38 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I think you could say that CAN and BZL are the most dominant countries in the respective sports. Canada has won 3 of the last 4 best on best tournaments, so I think anyone would have to admit that is considered dominant.
Canada Cup isnt best against best and is important only in Canada( maybe USA). With NHL ( Canadian/USA) referees and home crowd its gives way too big advantage for NA teams before all others. Plus Canada has not get any medal(at OG) outside of NA. So YEAH they dominate

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05-23-2012, 09:39 AM
  #74
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If some Canadians here want to ignore the WHC for this discussion, shouldn't the title include only the two main tournaments in the respective sports (Olympics for hockey and World Cup for soccer)?

If you are discussing their dominance overall in the sport, you have to include every tournament, not just the ones you win. If Canada dominates, they should dominate in every tournament, not just the Olympics. If Canada is so good (which I'm not trying to say they aren't), they should be able to handle the slight disadvantage in not having some of their players in the WHC.

What difference does the NHL playoffs make anyway? I think that excuse is blown out of proportion just a tad. How many players are already knocked out of the playoffs and choose not to play? One example is Canada's best player. It's not the rest of the world's fault that Crosby chooses not to participate.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a big Hockey Canada fan. I root for them all the time (unless they're facing USA or Sweden). And, USA sucks, so it's not like I have some bias or anything to make it seem like USA is better (since obviously they're not).

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05-23-2012, 09:47 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by JesusBouillon View Post
Also, barely top 3 is laughable, we're by far the best country, any best on best event we don't win is usually because another team lucked out.
give some more..

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