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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

What is more impressive, Canada's dominance in hockey or Brazil's in soccer?

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Old
05-23-2012, 08:56 AM
  #76
RTN
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I would say Canada is dominant in hockey. Many people believe that the All Blacks are dominant in rugby, yet they've only one 2/7 world cups.

Brazil does not currently dominate soccer, they haven't done well as of late.

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05-23-2012, 08:57 AM
  #77
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Robin929 View Post
Games are determined by the quality of the TEAM.
And playerquality is not equal with teamquality.

Canada just isnt a dominating team, even you have many superstars in the worlds greatest hockeyleague.
there are many diffent ways one could measure dominance, national teams results are one and individual player results are another

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05-23-2012, 09:01 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by pouskin74 View Post
Canada Cup isnt best against best and is important only in Canada( maybe USA). With NHL ( Canadian/USA) referees and home crowd its gives way too big advantage for NA teams before all others. Plus Canada has not get any medal(at OG) outside of NA. So YEAH they dominate
You would be surprised to find out that being the host country is actually a statistical disadvantage in international hockey, but the reffing in CCups / WCups has always been just as good and bad as it has been in any international hockey, or league hockey for that matter. None of your arguments address why you claim they were not b on b tournaments.

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05-23-2012, 09:05 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
If you are discussing their dominance overall in the sport, you have to include every tournament, not just the ones you win. If Canada dominates, they should dominate in every tournament, not just the Olympics. If Canada is so good (which I'm not trying to say they aren't), they should be able to handle the slight disadvantage in not having some of their players in the WHC.
I don't think it has anything to do with excluding tournaments we haven't won, but rather giving weight to them as justified.

For example I would never argue that World Basketball Championship results or Olympic Soccer results are reliable indicators of dominance.

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05-23-2012, 09:05 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin929 View Post
Canada dominate hockey?

6 golds in whc in the last 70 years.
2 golds in olympics in that last 70 years.
15 golds at U20 since 77.

As you can see, Canada is far away from a dominant hockey nation. They are barley a top 3 nation. The only thing Canada could say they are best in (Looking through out the history) in hockey is U20 where they have in the last 12 years taking 5 golds which is really impressive. However, they havent won a U20 gold since 2009. So they dont even dominate at U20.But yeah, they are one of the best u20 countries, no doubt. But thats it.

Also, Brazil doesnt dominate football anymore :/


Jan-Ove Waldner. Your arguemnt is invalid.
This is a ridiculous post.

6 Golds in the WHC in the last 70 years? It's NOT a best-on-best tournament!

2 Golds in the Olympics in the last 70 years? I love how you fail to mention that NHL players have only been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 1998. So make that stat read "2 Golds in the Olympics in the last 14 years" and you'll have a much more accurate figure.

Canada is barely a top three hockey country? What are you smoking? Canadians are not a proud bunch overall, and we are normally very humble, but the one and only thing we can legitimately claim that we're better than the entire world at is hockey. Is Canada dominant? No, the rest of the world provides some formidable foes. But regardless of the margin between us and #2 in the world, we are the best (at hockey, and only hockey).

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05-23-2012, 09:08 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by pigpen65 View Post
Perfect timing for this thread. Same week the Canadian team failed to even medal in an international tournament. Canadian hockey arrogance is outrageous.

Its not arrogance, its insecurity about their standing in the hockey hierarchy.

"What? We're not ranked #1 by IIHF? They're biased!!"

...and then Canada loses and "Uhhh, we're still the best because (insert some arbitrary judging system)"

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05-23-2012, 09:08 AM
  #82
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The Canadian self-image is interesting to observe in this thread. About the comparison, Brazil hasn't dominated anything for about 10 years now. Spain would be the closest to a dominating football power, and yet they only have been for about 4 years. I'm guessing their reign is about to end this years EC. Before that France had a spell of impressive cup wins.

Brazil does however field impressive teams that always go deep in tournaments, in that regard the comparison would be valid.

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05-23-2012, 09:09 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I thought this might lead to some intersting discussions.

I would say that Canada is more dominant in hockey than Brazil is in soccer since Canada wins a higher percentage of the best on best tournaments and also has a higher percentage of the world's elite players. However there are way more countries which compete at a high level in soccer, so for Brazil to do as well as they have is pretty unbelievable.

World Cup of Hockey is a boring practice tournament. Only in America does this have any appeal.

World Championships and Olympics are the best on best tournaments. You could argue as much as you want about lacking players, but it's still a best on best tournament.

I suggest the mods lock this thread, because it's clearly a troll-attempt. Not the first time from that side either.

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05-23-2012, 09:24 AM
  #84
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Out of the last 6 best-on-best tournaments (the 6 played since the fall of the Soviet Union) Canada has won 3 and failed to win 3. That's a strong record and they're clearly the strongest hockey nation. But 50:50 it's not domination in my book, especially considering Canada's belly landing in the 2006 Olympics, the second-last best-on-best tournament and the last on large ice.
Another way to look at it: Out of the 3 best-on-best tournaments played on large ice, Canada has won only 1. They have something to prove at the 2014 Olympics for sure. Would not be the case if their record was already dominant by now.

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05-23-2012, 09:26 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
World Cup of Hockey is a boring practice tournament. Only in America does this have any appeal.

World Championships and Olympics are the best on best tournaments. You could argue as much as you want about lacking players, but it's still a best on best tournament.

I suggest the mods lock this thread, because it's clearly a troll-attempt. Not the first time from that side either.
Itís NOT best on best though. Best on best means having your best players compete against another countryís best players. The Olympics is best on best. The World Championships is not. Not every countryís players come out in full force in anticipation of the WHC. Many players would prefer to rest, vacation, or heal in the off-season rather than play in what they see as an inferior tournament. The Olympics on the other hand, is something that players look forward to and definitely get up for. I havenít heard too many instances of a player declining an Olympic roster invitation for any reason less than a serious injury or a family emergency.

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05-23-2012, 09:27 AM
  #86
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A best on best tournament is any tournament where all the teams have their best players available to them.

Best on Best Tournaments - Winners

76 Canada Cup - Canada
81 Canada Cup - Soviet Union
84 Canada Cup - Canada
87 Canada Cup - Canada
91 Canada Cup - Canada
96 World Cup - Unites States
98 Olympics - Czech Republic
02 Olympics - Canada
04 World Cup - Canada
05 World Championships (NHL lockout) - Czech Republic
06 Olympics - Sweden
10 Olympics - Canada

In 12 best on best tournaments over 36 years, Canada has 7 firsts and 3 seconds, that is pretty dominant.

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05-23-2012, 09:32 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
World Championships and Olympics are the best on best tournaments. You could argue as much as you want about lacking players, but it's still a best on best tournament.
Sorry, but the common definition of "best on best" actually is: a tournament held while league competitions are shut down, so that in a organisational sense all players in the world are available. World Championships are held while the NHL playoffs are held, so there's a conflict of schedules. Not the case in best-on-best tournaments.

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05-23-2012, 09:32 AM
  #88
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You call the WHC not best on best, but how many players were left in the final four of the playoffs and would have been on Team Canada if not for the playoffs? The majority of the players (and top players) were already knocked out.

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05-23-2012, 09:37 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by LatexiKledjut View Post
Canada's just the biggest fish in a very very small pond. Not comparable sports at all.
This. Comparing hockey to the worlds biggest sport is ludicrous.

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05-23-2012, 09:39 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I think you would find that IIHF men's tournaments (WC and OG) have traditionally been much more biased in favour of Europeans than the CCup and WCup ever were the other way, but a lot of people don't want to admit that.
Examples? I get that for obvious reason the WC is far from perfect but the CCUP/WCUP has plenty of issues that impact its credibility/legitmacy as a means to determine "world hockey supremacy". The Olympic tournament isn't perfect either but IMHO it is to this point still the best format international hockey has had.

Anyway... Making a comparison between dominance in hockey (or really any other team sport) and soccer doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Concerning things like global interest, depth, infrastruture and competitiveness hockey and soccer are on different planets. Comparing hockey to something like Rugby or Cricket would probably be more resonable.

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05-23-2012, 09:40 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Sonny Lamateena View Post
A best on best tournament is any tournament where all the teams have their best players available to them.

Best on Best Tournaments - Winners

76 Canada Cup - Canada
81 Canada Cup - Soviet Union
84 Canada Cup - Canada
87 Canada Cup - Canada
91 Canada Cup - Canada
96 World Cup - Unites States
98 Olympics - Czech Republic
02 Olympics - Canada
04 World Cup - Canada
05 World Championships (NHL lockout) - Czech Republic
06 Olympics - Sweden
10 Olympics - Canada

In 12 best on best tournaments over 36 years, Canada has 7 firsts and 3 seconds, that is pretty dominant.
98 & 02 should be out then... Slovakia got hosed.

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05-23-2012, 09:42 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
Itís NOT best on best though. Best on best means having your best players compete against another countryís best players. The Olympics is best on best. The World Championships is not. Not every countryís players come out in full force in anticipation of the WHC. Many players would prefer to rest, vacation, or heal in the off-season rather than play in what they see as an inferior tournament. The Olympics on the other hand, is something that players look forward to and definitely get up for. I havenít heard too many instances of a player declining an Olympic roster invitation for any reason less than a serious injury or a family emergency.
Number one: No. Best on best means the nations best available team. If players in one country says no for no apparent reason, that's just bad culture in that country and the federations should step up and fix it.

Number two: Again, it's still a best on best. One or two teams bad culture of nations players saying no. It shouldn't punish the other nations and downgrading the importance for the majority. And again it's up to that nations federation to do something about it.


And by your arguments, a nation can have 7 players out for the Olympics and say, it's not best on best, because our guys are injured.

Best on Best = Best players available for the team! If people who are good enough say no, OK, that nations federation or organization has to do something about that culture! That's that nations problem. Not the other 15+ problem.

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05-23-2012, 09:42 AM
  #93
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Neither dominates, but Brazil is more successful.

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05-23-2012, 09:43 AM
  #94
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The answer to this question is easily Brasil. The entire world competes in futbol, and from time to time strong teams emerge from seemingly anywhere. Hockey is a much more limited, niche sport wherein only a handful of nations consistently present "contenders".

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05-23-2012, 09:45 AM
  #95
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Those tournaments in the 70's and 80's were between Canada and CCCP. Everyone else were just background artists.

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05-23-2012, 09:47 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
It’s NOT best on best though. Best on best means having your best players compete against another country’s best players. The Olympics is best on best. The World Championships is not. Not every country’s players come out in full force in anticipation of the WHC. Many players would prefer to rest, vacation, or heal in the off-season rather than play in what they see as an inferior tournament. The Olympics on the other hand, is something that players look forward to and definitely get up for. I haven’t heard too many instances of a player declining an Olympic roster invitation for any reason less than a serious injury or a family emergency.
if some team wants to be called dominant in any sport, it should be able to compete for gold without some of it's best players. isn't depth one of the things that is said to be Canada's biggest advantage?

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05-23-2012, 09:49 AM
  #97
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I respect that each nation is very passionate about their respected teams, but these threads are turning into pissing matches. When one gets shut down for the same reason, we are finding a new way to re-word it and turns right into a Russia vs Canada debate.

Let's have some mutual respect and discuss the tournament and the upcoming Olympics. Enough with the petty flame wars. Both nations are damn good and should be proud of their respected players.

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