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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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05-23-2012, 10:51 AM
  #26
MathMan
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
By refusing to change his stance in light of this information I think he has illustrated his personal bias.
Actually seems to me that the problem would be people with unshakable personal biases against Martin, and who aren't precisely subtle about expressing them.

There seems to be more than a bit of bias favoring Cunneyworth as well, I figure owing to sympathy towards the way he was handled by Gauthier. The sympathy is certainly warranted, but it shouldn't completely blind us to his performance either.

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05-23-2012, 10:51 AM
  #27
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That much micromanagement though? Where did Gauthier find the time?

I can buy Gauthier ordered Subban and Eller scratched. I can buy that he ordered the whacky notion of using Eller as the tough matchup guy after that four-goal game. I can buy that he ordered the failed two-man forecheck experiment.

But would Gauthier order Eller benched after he floundered at that role? Would he order more minutes for Blunden? Would he order a total dismantling of the system to go to a purely "push puck and chase" approach (much as Martin is blamed for this, they at least passed the puck out of the zone, whereas they did practically nothing but chip it out under Cunneyworth)?

Cunneyworth was not put in an ideal situation and it's quite possible that Gauthier had more of a hand in micromanaging coaching than I thought, but the management was so bad that there's nothing to show Cunneyworth even had a clue.

Also, very important tidbit worth remembering about Spacek's opinions about the interim coach: Spacek was traded before Martin was fired. There's only so much first-hand information he would have about Cunneyworth the head coach.
Give it up. Your comments are so colored by personal prejudice it is impossible to take them seriously. Suddenly you know how much time Gauthier had on his hands, you were privy to conversations between Gauthier and Cunneyworth.... and I think Spacek would have far more insight into Cunneyworth's abilities than any poster on this board. Don't flatter yourself.

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05-23-2012, 10:52 AM
  #28
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The guys that were signed in 09 became such a team though. Okay there were a lot of up and downs... but Spacek is right they played for each other and unfortunately were never fully healthy. They were a veteran team with almost every key member having played Internationally for their country in the biggest stage possible. It makes me wish the 09-10 or 10-11 teams had Cole and Markov. What could have been?

When I look forward at this team we have now, I think they are able to build the relationships and chemistry that those two playoff rosters had. It's refreshing to see guys like Gill, Cammy, etc still talking amongst eachother on twitter with old Hab teammates. I hope our current group gets into the playoffs this year and makes a little noise while gelling together so that in 2013-14 they can be a contender.

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05-23-2012, 10:54 AM
  #29
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Actually seems to me that the problem would be people with unshakable personal biases against Martin, and who aren't precisely subtle about expressing them.
I have spoken to players who played for Martin. The consensus is bang on with what Spacek was saying.

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05-23-2012, 10:56 AM
  #30
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Where does he say "garbage coach"?

He said he's a terrible communicator who isn't good at adjusting from his defensive system. Is this something we didn't know?

He is much harsher toward Gauthier.
He never uses the term "garbage coach" per se but he does deliver a scathing review of JM's overall ineptness in terms of communication; strategy; and adaptation (or lack thereof). To me those are all key characteristics of a good coach. So although Spacek never used the term "garbage coach" it was definitely implied.

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05-23-2012, 10:57 AM
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I guess Martin's lack of communication skills shows why losing Muller was so difficult for this team. JM is a great tactician and hockey mind but we lost the personality and a good human being in Kirk... can't believe he got away

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05-23-2012, 10:57 AM
  #32
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Give it up. Your comments are so colored by personal prejudice it is impossible to take them seriously.
Right back atcha.

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05-23-2012, 11:02 AM
  #33
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I guess Martin's lack of communication skills shows why losing Muller was so difficult for this team. JM is a great tactician and hockey mind but we lost the personality and a good human being in Kirk... can't believe he got away
I don't think he was that great of a tactician at all because, as Spacek points out, they never had the players to play the strategy that JM was trying to employ. His strategy might be great but you can't employ a strategy where the resources you need to properly employ that strategy are missing. To me a great tactician is someone that is able to adapt. That was far from JM's strong point. He never once talked to his players during a game. Any in-game strategies came from Muller.

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05-23-2012, 11:03 AM
  #34
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Cammalleri was traded because he said the truth about sticking too much to the system and not making hockey plays.

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05-23-2012, 11:04 AM
  #35
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I don't think he was that great of a tactician at all because, as Spacek points out, they never had the players to play the strategy that JM was trying to employ. His strategy might be great but you can't employ a strategy where the resources you need to properly employ that strategy are missing. To me a great tactician is someone that is able to adapt. That was far from JM's strong point. He never once talked to his players during a game. Any in-game strategies came from Muller.
Tactician was the wrong word I guess I should say X's and O's guy, what I mean is Martin had the hockey knolwedge and Muller was the glue that made it work. You can have Martin scribbling away in his notebook behind those big ass ears as long as you have a person like Muller who knows how to talk to and engage with, motivate, etc... make people feel like human beings not pieces on a chess board or scribbles on a dry-erase board

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05-23-2012, 11:05 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by JC93 View Post
I guess Martin's lack of communication skills shows why losing Muller was so difficult for this team. JM is a great tactician and hockey mind but we lost the personality and a good human being in Kirk... can't believe he got away

They were the perfect mix IMO, and the 96 point season in 10-11 showed that, even with the injuries that year.

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05-23-2012, 11:06 AM
  #37
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To me a great tactician is someone that is able to adapt. That was far from JM's strong point. He never once talked to his players during a game. Any in-game strategies came from Muller.
The problem with that is that we have known cases of Martin switching matchups mid-game to adjust to his early-game line matchups being ineffective, including post-Muller. So it's untrue that Martin "never" adjusted. It might be a matter of degrees, though, in the sense that he didn't do it enough to Spacek's tastes (or did it in ways Spacek couldn't discern; I'm not sure Spacek would pay much attention to forward line changes, for example).

But in general, I have a lot of trouble with the whole "Martin doesn't adjust" notion because I've seen adjustments from him (or rather had them pointed out to me).

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05-23-2012, 11:06 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
He never uses the term "garbage coach" per se but he does deliver a scathing review of JM's overall ineptness in terms of communication; strategy; and adaptation (or lack thereof). To me those are all key characteristics of a good coach. So although Spacek never used the term "garbage coach" it was definitely implied.
I don't think there's a formula for a good coach. Bowman did not communicate with his players either.

Martin likely tried to be like Bowman, he wouldn't be the first, but without the adjustments.

I don't think it's fair at all to say Martin had nothing to do with the teams decent record and reaching an ECF under him. Spacek in retrospect might not have liked it, and it might have had a lot to do with team chemistry (and Muller), but Martin did promote an element of structure that IMO helped the team compete with more skilled opponents.

Cunneyworth might have been a puppet, but whatever he was it's clear under him the team lacked that structure.

Martin was not a very good coach if he was that detached from his players, because he wasn't THAT brilliant tactically to make up for it considering he couldn't adjust. Unfortunately hearing the names thrown around I'm not sure they are better off without him.

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05-23-2012, 11:12 AM
  #39
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Great, and the coaching candidates being mentioned are all clones of Martin on some level.

Crawford - defense first, boring as all hell.
Therrien - generally disliked by his players, one system till the death.
Carbonneau - Defense first, which is what you would expect from one of the best two way players ever to put on the CH

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05-23-2012, 11:22 AM
  #40
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Great, and the coaching candidates being mentioned are all clones of Martin on some level.

Crawford - defense first, boring as all hell.
Therrien - generally disliked by his players, one system till the death.
Carbonneau - Defense first, which is what you would expect from one of the best two way players ever to put on the CH
In Carbo's defence, he was coach when the Habs led the league in scoring in 07-08. Maybe it was a fluke, I dunno.

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05-23-2012, 11:23 AM
  #41
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A relatively objective person? You HAVE to be kidding. He won't even admit to being wrong when a players comes out and tells us what was happening behind the scenes. By refusing to change his stance in light of this information I think he has illustrated his personal bias.
Well, on one hand you have a guy that is capable of analyzing the game and change his opinions as improvements occur.

On the other hand you have guys that keep spewing out the same old crap like ''he's boring'' or ''pacifists'', or other meaningless words.

As for RC, as much as a hand Gauthier could have in coaching decisions (you're basing this on the words of a player that was playing in Carolina the day RC was given the job), he's not the one that made RC bench Eller for the 3rd period+OT and then sent him out as the 3rd shooter in a shootout. You can look at many different scenarios where it's impossible for Gauthier to have had a say.

I know people love to paint Gauthier as this evil man. But let's not exaggerate.
RC was terrible.




As for Spacek's interview. I find the most interesting piece was him saying ''at the end, we win 2-1, but it was boring. Nobody cared (fans).''
As if entertaining fans was more important than winning.

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05-23-2012, 11:25 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Great, and the coaching candidates being mentioned are all clones of Martin on some level.

Crawford - defense first, boring as all hell.
Therrien - generally disliked by his players, one system till the death.
Carbonneau - Defense first, which is what you would expect from one of the best two way players ever to put on the CH
If Carbonneau was to be re-hired, which I do not buy, I honestly think I'd stop watching. He had NO system, NO coaching skills. All he kept asking is "Work more, work more, work more"... hell, ok, it's not a bad thing, but at some point you have to tell your employees HOW you want them to work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBDee_AbTu8

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05-23-2012, 11:27 AM
  #43
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I don't think he was that great of a tactician at all because, as Spacek points out, they never had the players to play the strategy that JM was trying to employ. His strategy might be great but you can't employ a strategy where the resources you need to properly employ that strategy are missing. To me a great tactician is someone that is able to adapt. That was far from JM's strong point. He never once talked to his players during a game. Any in-game strategies came from Muller.
You think this team could have gotten better results the 2years Martin coached??

There's a huge factor people seem to have forgotten as well. Injuries. We had a million of them, and not to little role players.

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05-23-2012, 11:31 AM
  #44
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The problem with that is that we have known cases of Martin switching matchups mid-game to adjust to his early-game line matchups being ineffective, including post-Muller. So it's untrue that Martin "never" adjusted. It might be a matter of degrees, though, in the sense that he didn't do it enough to Spacek's tastes (or did it in ways Spacek couldn't discern; I'm not sure Spacek would pay much attention to forward line changes, for example).

But in general, I have a lot of trouble with the whole "Martin doesn't adjust" notion because I've seen adjustments from him (or rather had them pointed out to me).
Agreed. I thought adjustments were pretty clear under Martin. Really, I don't know what Spacek is talking about there..
Not to mention the numerous adjustments (not even game related) he had to do due to our huge number of injuries.
People forget that the first season, Martin had half a AHL roster at some point, and we're not talking role players but key guys missing action.

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05-23-2012, 11:32 AM
  #45
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I didn’t mind Jacques. But today you see young coaches trying to change systems, trying to adjust to other teams. We never did that. No 2-1-2 (formation). With the talent we had, we should have been aggressive. We never did that. It was chip and chase. Now everybody’s going after Gomer. Cammy didn’t like it, either. Those guys have to play with the puck.

It was like watching my (9-year-old) kid, firing the puck along the boards and chasing it. We didn’t have strong forwards to run somebody over. We should have played with the puck and made the plays. If we chip it around the goal, do you think Gio’s going to win the battles against Chara?

We’d sit back and wait for a mistake. We never put the pressure on the opponent. It’s sometimes OK to do that on the road. But at home, where you should be playing your own game, it was the worst thing.
Heh. I don't know how many times I've posted this over the years. Word for word, well except the part about the 9 year old son.

Teams LOVED playing in Montreal. Building as loud as hell to get you jacked, and an opponent that NEVER PRESSURES YOU. How many g-d times did you see us dump the puck in at home and NOT chase. And not on line changes. People complain about dump and chase, well sometimes didn't bother chasing! (Carbonneau years were really bad for this).

I'm so tired of this subject, but its refreshing to hear it from a player.

And how many times do we have to hear "the coach doesn't talk to us" Hmm? Sad and ironic that guys get hired for this prestigious coaching job primarily because they communicate in 2 languages and yet never think to use them with their players.

Bergevin, just think of what Gainey and Gauthier would do, and do the opposite.

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05-23-2012, 11:35 AM
  #46
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Great, and the coaching candidates being mentioned are all clones of Martin on some level.

Crawford - defense first, boring as all hell.
Therrien - generally disliked by his players, one system till the death.
Carbonneau - Defense first, which is what you would expect from one of the best two way players ever to put on the CH
Haha, not sure if serious....

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05-23-2012, 11:54 AM
  #47
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Did he say that Staal wanted out? Did I read that right?

Never heard of that before

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05-23-2012, 11:55 AM
  #48
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You think this team could have gotten better results the 2years Martin coached??

There's a huge factor people seem to have forgotten as well. Injuries. We had a million of them, and not to little role players.
Yes I do feel another coach could have gotten this team better results. Muller, for example, could have done better with this team. In fact, as soon as he left the team nosedived.

And Pens had major injuries to more key players than the Habs and they played pretty well regardless.

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05-23-2012, 11:55 AM
  #49
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A coach isn't a babysitter who's supposed to pamper and say ok go out there and play offensively and do whatever you want. Everyone knows this but Bowman was probably one of the most hated coaches out there.

Call it what you will, whatever JM did worked. You can't argue the results.

Maybe Spacek can join a beer league if he wants to go out there and demonstrate his superior offensive skills lol.

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05-23-2012, 11:56 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Great, and the coaching candidates being mentioned are all clones of Martin on some level.

Crawford - defense first, boring as all hell.
Therrien - generally disliked by his players, one system till the death.
Carbonneau - Defense first, which is what you would expect from one of the best two way players ever to put on the CH
He's the complete opposite of that.

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