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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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05-23-2012, 11:34 AM
  #51
Whitesnake
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Again, nothing will be settled with that article 'cause strangely, people in here can't talk about what we don' tknow. Yet, when a player, WHO PLAYED FOR HIM, makes his comments....it's still not good enough. So what would it take to see Martin as he really was? An admission of Martin himself? See, Martin, himself, admitted that he was too patient with players like Gomez and some others. Is that good enough? Or is Martin wrong about Martin? I mean, I do understand, it's not because a player has an opinion that it should mean it's the bible and everybody should adhere to it. But at the worst, it solidifies what some people in here thought that was laughed at when they said it mostly because "They have no idea since they are not in the room" type of statement. Spacek isn,t the first one in that room to have mentioned how it used to work, whether it's the coach or this fabulous GM we used to have.

But then, to Martin's defense, 'cause the guy was not all bad, it is also possible that player overestimate their real talent. Wouldn't be the first time it happens. So whether Spacek thinks we had the players to play another style, chances are we didn't really. Then it goes back to Mr. Gauthier......

What is really strange in this is that most people who keeps defending Martin.....also keeps defending Gauthier.....and also defended Gainey for quite some time.......and in the same breath are mentioned that Timmins is the best head scout in the business. Which brings the question.....how come I'm not aware that we won the last 5 Cups? If Martin did the incredibly best with the group he had....shouldn't it be a reason to enough to criticize Gainey and GAuthier's work since Martin was only able to bring us to where we are at right now? Especially since the REAL truth in this is that we DO have the best head scout in the business? Martin isn't the awful coach that some thing he was. But a guy who was not that long ago seen mostly as the head coach of the past, it is possible that as many games you had coaching, it might have been time to let it go. Strangely, a guy just as old like Ken Hitchcock was applauded for having chances and adapted, something which Martin seems unable to do. It's one thing to be a vet, it's another to recognize in which era you are playing in. Martin wasn't bad. But he wasn't great either. One thing I'm sure, he was CLEARLY not the problem though. Gainey and Gauthier ****ed up that team, nobody else. A Gainey that succeeded to ****ed up the work that....Gainey himself did after the Savard era. And a Gauthier who just put the final nail in the coffin which some of his hockey decisions but mostly which the freak show he created that was disrespectful to the Montreal Canadiens.

Oh and I'm surely too sensitive. But somebody change the title. Totally misleading and disrespectful as much as I wasn't a fan of both.

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05-23-2012, 11:37 AM
  #52
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I like Spacek's answers a lot. They are direct, honest and frank.

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05-23-2012, 11:37 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
Nothing we did not know yet...

And coming from this guy... who did **** all for 2 and a half years...


But he just confirm that the habs were NOT BUILT to go to war with its pint-size forwards.


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05-23-2012, 11:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The problem with that is that we have known cases of Martin switching matchups mid-game to adjust to his early-game line matchups being ineffective, including post-Muller. So it's untrue that Martin "never" adjusted. It might be a matter of degrees, though, in the sense that he didn't do it enough to Spacek's tastes (or did it in ways Spacek couldn't discern; I'm not sure Spacek would pay much attention to forward line changes, for example).

But in general, I have a lot of trouble with the whole "Martin doesn't adjust" notion because I've seen adjustments from him (or rather had them pointed out to me).
He would indeed shuffle his lines. It was something that became a bit of a running gag, actually. Not to say that it wasn't warranted sometimes or even most of the time.

I think what most people take issue with concerning JM was is unwillingness to play a more aggressive style when needed. His preparation in practise seemed to be thorough - the system was firmly installed, to say the least. It was his in-game coaching that was lacking. I don't recall him ever switching to a 2-1-2 when we were down. He NEVER called timeouts at the right time to cool things down when it was obvious that he should.

But more than anything, he played a totally inappropriate style for the kind of players he was given. He had a fast, aggressive minded team, not a gang of grinders. The old guard of coaches who have remained relavant, are the ones who have been willing to adjust their style to their players and that's why Jacques wasn't too popular here or successful.

It wasn't all his fault though: he was put there by BG and PG knowing full well what kind of coach he was.

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05-23-2012, 11:48 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, nothing will be settled with that article 'cause strangely, people in here can't talk about what we don' tknow. Yet, when a player, WHO PLAYED FOR HIM, makes his comments....it's still not good enough. So what would it take to see Martin as he really was? An admission of Martin himself? See, Martin, himself, admitted that he was too patient with players like Gomez and some others. Is that good enough? Or is Martin wrong about Martin? I mean, I do understand, it's not because a player has an opinion that it should mean it's the bible and everybody should adhere to it. But at the worst, it solidifies what some people in here thought that was laughed at when they said it mostly because "They have no idea since they are not in the room" type of statement. Spacek isn,t the first one in that room to have mentioned how it used to work, whether it's the coach or this fabulous GM we used to have.

But then, to Martin's defense, 'cause the guy was not all bad, it is also possible that player overestimate their real talent. Wouldn't be the first time it happens. So whether Spacek thinks we had the players to play another style, chances are we didn't really. Then it goes back to Mr. Gauthier......

What is really strange in this is that most people who keeps defending Martin.....also keeps defending Gauthier.....and also defended Gainey for quite some time.......and in the same breath are mentioned that Timmins is the best head scout in the business. Which brings the question.....how come I'm not aware that we won the last 5 Cups? If Martin did the incredibly best with the group he had....shouldn't it be a reason to enough to criticize Gainey and GAuthier's work since Martin was only able to bring us to where we are at right now? Especially since the REAL truth in this is that we DO have the best head scout in the business? Martin isn't the awful coach that some thing he was. But a guy who was not that long ago seen mostly as the head coach of the past, it is possible that as many games you had coaching, it might have been time to let it go. Strangely, a guy just as old like Ken Hitchcock was applauded for having chances and adapted, something which Martin seems unable to do. It's one thing to be a vet, it's another to recognize in which era you are playing in. Martin wasn't bad. But he wasn't great either. One thing I'm sure, he was CLEARLY not the problem though. Gainey and Gauthier ****ed up that team, nobody else. A Gainey that succeeded to ****ed up the work that....Gainey himself did after the Savard era. And a Gauthier who just put the final nail in the coffin which some of his hockey decisions but mostly which the freak show he created that was disrespectful to the Montreal Canadiens.

Oh and I'm surely too sensitive. But somebody change the title. Totally misleading and disrespectful as much as I wasn't a fan of both.
This.

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05-23-2012, 11:50 AM
  #56
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All I know is that JM's "system" bored me to tears...we'd take a first period lead and then sit back and defend the rest of the game...the other team would make adjustments after the first period and our fate was doomed...JM never seemed to be able to get the Habs to open up when they needed a goal...more times than I care to remember, we'd end up losing after leading for a good portion of the game.

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05-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #57
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We all knew Martin was Rain Man and he has had a style that people hated but he has had some level of success. He was just wrong for this market. Look people have been calling Bary Trotz a great hockey mind in Nashville but the guy is also an ultra defensive hockey maniac and if he would have coached in Montreal he would have been ran out of town. It's all about perspectives.

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05-23-2012, 12:03 PM
  #58
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Everything else aside, I can't imagine the Hurricanes are too thrilled with Spacek saying that their captain and face of the franchise "wanted out" last year.

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05-23-2012, 12:06 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Again, nothing will be settled with that article 'cause strangely, people in here can't talk about what we don' tknow. Yet, when a player, WHO PLAYED FOR HIM, makes his comments....it's still not good enough. So what would it take to see Martin as he really was? An admission of Martin himself? See, Martin, himself, admitted that he was too patient with players like Gomez and some others. Is that good enough? Or is Martin wrong about Martin? I mean, I do understand, it's not because a player has an opinion that it should mean it's the bible and everybody should adhere to it. But at the worst, it solidifies what some people in here thought that was laughed at when they said it mostly because "They have no idea since they are not in the room" type of statement. Spacek isn,t the first one in that room to have mentioned how it used to work, whether it's the coach or this fabulous GM we used to have.

But then, to Martin's defense, 'cause the guy was not all bad, it is also possible that player overestimate their real talent. Wouldn't be the first time it happens. So whether Spacek thinks we had the players to play another style, chances are we didn't really. Then it goes back to Mr. Gauthier......

What is really strange in this is that most people who keeps defending Martin.....also keeps defending Gauthier.....and also defended Gainey for quite some time.......and in the same breath are mentioned that Timmins is the best head scout in the business. Which brings the question.....how come I'm not aware that we won the last 5 Cups? If Martin did the incredibly best with the group he had....shouldn't it be a reason to enough to criticize Gainey and GAuthier's work since Martin was only able to bring us to where we are at right now? Especially since the REAL truth in this is that we DO have the best head scout in the business? Martin isn't the awful coach that some thing he was. But a guy who was not that long ago seen mostly as the head coach of the past, it is possible that as many games you had coaching, it might have been time to let it go. Strangely, a guy just as old like Ken Hitchcock was applauded for having chances and adapted, something which Martin seems unable to do. It's one thing to be a vet, it's another to recognize in which era you are playing in. Martin wasn't bad. But he wasn't great either. One thing I'm sure, he was CLEARLY not the problem though. Gainey and Gauthier ****ed up that team, nobody else. A Gainey that succeeded to ****ed up the work that....Gainey himself did after the Savard era. And a Gauthier who just put the final nail in the coffin which some of his hockey decisions but mostly which the freak show he created that was disrespectful to the Montreal Canadiens.

Oh and I'm surely too sensitive. But somebody change the title. Totally misleading and disrespectful as much as I wasn't a fan of both.
I absolutely agree with your post.

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05-23-2012, 12:11 PM
  #60
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Everything else aside, I can't imagine the Hurricanes are too thrilled with Spacek saying that their captain and face of the franchise "wanted out" last year.
I was surpised to see this in print too. Way to go Spatcho, spilling the beans.

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05-23-2012, 12:15 PM
  #61
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In Carbo's defence, he was coach when the Habs led the league in scoring in 07-08. Maybe it was a fluke, I dunno.
A bit of a fluke, but mostly, it was an unreal power play. A lot of it was Kovy-Markov having banner seasons, but that wasn't all: the second unit would score at a higher pace than almost everyone else's first unit.

That's certainly something you can give Carbo credit for -- unfortunately, with fewer and fewer penalty calls throughout the league, special teams are getting devalued in favor of 5-on-5 play, and Carbo's teams were weak 5-on-5 (but, as is often the case in Montreal, benefitted from amazing goaltending).

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05-23-2012, 12:17 PM
  #62
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Trade Gomez for Staal

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05-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #63
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The title of this thread is classic HFboards.

I liked reading what Spacek has to say though, he seems honest and forward, which gives some nice insight although obviously it's still just his experience.

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05-23-2012, 12:21 PM
  #64
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I think what most people take issue with concerning JM was is unwillingness to play a more aggressive style when needed. His preparation in practise seemed to be thorough - the system was firmly installed, to say the least. It was his in-game coaching that was lacking. I don't recall him ever switching to a 2-1-2 when we were down.
The funny thing is, last year Montreal was one of the best clubs in the league for generating shots when they were down by more than one goal. All teams that are behind become more aggressive when down to an extent, and so increase their relative shot generation. But in 2010-2011 Martin's Habs were second only to the Caps in dominating the play when down 2 (and were no worse than league-average when down 1).

And despite complaints that they would sit back too much when down, they actually wouldn't allow more shots than the league average either. Again, all teams sit back with leads (it's just good tactical sense) and Montreal wasn't exceptional in this regard. We'll complain about the next coach sitting back on leads, I'm sure (or else we'll complain about blowing them -- this was a problem for Ron Wilson in Toronto).

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05-23-2012, 12:35 PM
  #65
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Martin adjusting

All 12 forward and 6 defensmens had to play the exact same no matter what qualities or flaws they brought to the team. The "Martin mole" like I like to call it. I will always despise those 2 for making the Habs a bunch of boring sissys. Gauthier was definitely the worst thing to bage ever happened to this team. In fact, we have yet to hear about 1 positive comment since he left the team.

I dont care about posters who use selective stats to defend Martin. I watched those 3 years and was embarrassed at times to be a fan of a team that played like that. Kings and Rangers know how it is, real talent on the top 2 lines, real good 2-way players on the 3rd line and real tough players on the 4th.

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05-23-2012, 12:37 PM
  #66
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Everything else aside, I can't imagine the Hurricanes are too thrilled with Spacek saying that their captain and face of the franchise "wanted out" last year.
I think he was talking about getting out of his slump.

As for Spacek, the 'french stuff' cracked me up. With all the riots going on right now and everything, you can bet Bergevin will have a hard time attracting UFA's in the next few years...

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05-23-2012, 12:40 PM
  #67
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He pretty much summed it all up..

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05-23-2012, 12:45 PM
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I wonder who's the journalist that he didn't get along with...

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05-23-2012, 12:48 PM
  #69
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I hate when players whined about their former team after being traded .


Especially Jaro ****ing Spacek, one of the most useless 3,9 milllion d-man we never had.

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05-23-2012, 12:48 PM
  #70
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I appreciate Spatcho's openness, I am sure the Canes won't be too happy about it though.

Martin wasn't that bad but we were a boring team under him. I think results are the most important thing but look at Carbo's 08 team, they were exciting and in first. I didn't like Jacques lack of emotion and hate the fact he didn't communicate with his players, I thought that was Carbo's problem? Letting Muller go while not having a good communicator behind the bench was also a huge error in judgment.

Today's players are a different breed and you need a different mindset in dealing with them these days, all the old school coaches acts' wear thin within a few seasons as they did here, hopefully Bergy addresses this with the head coaching hire.

I used to defend Gauthier because I liked a lot of his moves (Cole, Emelin, Eller) but it is hard to hear some of these things come out after his dismissal. It's a shame to think what this team could have achieved the last few years with a few tweaks here and there, and a clearer vision from top to bottom.

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05-23-2012, 12:52 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by 11Goat11 View Post
I appreciate Spatcho's openness, I am sure the Canes won't be too happy about it though.

Martin wasn't that bad but we were a boring team under him. I think results are the most important thing but look at Carbo's 08 team, they were exciting and in first. I didn't like Jacques lack of emotion and hate the fact he didn't communicate with his players, I thought that was Carbo's problem? Letting Muller go while not having a good communicator behind the bench was also a huge error in judgment.

Today's players are a different breed and you need a different mindset in dealing with them these days, all the old school coaches acts' wear thin within a few seasons as they did here, hopefully Bergy addresses this with the head coaching hire.

I used to defend Gauthier because I liked a lot of his moves (Cole, Emelin, Eller) but it is hard to hear some of these things come out after his dismissal. It's a shame to think what this team could have achieved the last few years with a few tweaks here and there, and a clearer vision from top to bottom.
Gainey MUST be blamed too.

Bringing and giving huge contracts in the same period to Gomez-Gionta and Cammy wasn't too brilliant.

Getting Spacek, Mara and Gill instead of keeping a guy like Streit was not very smart too.

As for Spacek, he never accepted to play on the right side under Martin who was stucked with too many lest d-men.

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05-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #72
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Gainey MUST be blamed too.

Bringing and giving huge contracts in the same period to Gomez-Gionta and Cammy wasn't too brilliant.

Getting Spacek, Mara and Gill instead of keeping a guy like Streit was not very smart too.

As for Spacek, he never accepted to play on the right side under Martin who was stucked with too many lest d-men.
I think Bob's heart was in the right place with respect to getting proven veteran leaders but his head wasn't right considering his personal tragedies. I think the big error was handing the keys to Gauthier without a full on search like what happened this year, for which Bob could be held somewhat accountable.

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05-23-2012, 01:08 PM
  #73
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Massive credit to Dave Stubbs, he finally did some reporting!

I know he got caught up with Spacek's golf and family life but at least he found a way to sneak in some Habs related content. Kudos to Stubbs, this is Pulitzer worthy.

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05-23-2012, 01:10 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitue View Post
I hate when players whined about their former team after being traded .


Especially Jaro ****ing Spacek, one of the most useless 3,9 milllion d-man we never had.
You call that whining? He was asked questions and he answered honestly. None of his answers sounded like he was whining.

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05-23-2012, 01:13 PM
  #75
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I think Bob's heart was in the right place with respect to getting proven veteran leaders but his head wasn't right considering his personal tragedies. I think the big error was handing the keys to Gauthier without a full on search like what happened this year, for which Bob could be held somewhat accountable.
Honestly, who would want the job? 6 months after the previous GM locks up mediocre players to 5 year contracts and hiring Martin for 4 years. Whoever took the job was going to be handcuffed from the get-go.

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