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Old
05-23-2012, 01:25 PM
  #51
Sarava
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Is there something to this....the long suffering Hawk fans tend to be Tallon supporters and the newer fans are Bowman guys?

I'm probably older than most of you, and I definitely support Tallon. I have seen way too many bad teams, or good to great teams that got blocked by the Edmonton Oilers or Pittsburgh Penguins, etc. I appreciate what Dale built - and accept that while he certainly made some mistakes, it was worth it in the end.

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05-23-2012, 01:26 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by salty justice View Post
I'm not sure if you were a Hawk fan at the time, but when that deal went down it was monumental. It was the biggest acquisition made by the Blackhawks in over a decade. It showed Tallon had the balls to give up a good young player and top prospect to bring in a 1st line player, something the Hawks hadn't had since Daze went down.

It also showed the Blackhawks organization was willing to ice a competitive squad in a way not seen in a long time by giving big money to guys like Havlat and Khabibulin at a time when no one wanted to come to Chicago.





He acquired Campbell and Versteeg for nothing.

It's amazes me that 90% of Hawk fans posting on HF do no even appreciate how long it took for the Hawks to be a competitive team. Tallon played a large role in restructuring the organization and there is no tangible evidence of improvement since his departure.

Bowman has made 1 good trade for a guy who will never be as good as Brian Campbell. Whoop-dee-friggin-doo.
He didn't "acquire" Brian Campbell. He offered him a ridiculous contract through Free-Agency.

Brian Campbell's first 30+ point season came in 2005-06, which, I believe, was the highest scoring season in the NHL over the past decade. He had 12 goals and 32 assists for 44 points that season, to go along with a nice -14 plus/minus rating. He was 26/27 at the time and had played parts of 5 seasons in the NHL, 6 total Pro seasons, before the 2005-06 season.

Nick Leddy's first 30+ point season came this year, 2011-12. He had 3 goals and 34 assists for 37 points, to go along with a -12 plus/minus rating. He's currently 21 and just got through his second Pro seaosn and first full season in the NHL.

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05-23-2012, 01:35 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Is there something to this....the long suffering Hawk fans tend to be Tallon supporters and the newer fans are Bowman guys?

I'm probably older than most of you, and I definitely support Tallon. I have seen way too many bad teams, or good to great teams that got blocked by the Edmonton Oilers or Pittsburgh Penguins, etc. I appreciate what Dale built - and accept that while he certainly made some mistakes, it was worth it in the end.
Tallon was charged with throwing **** at a wall and seeing if any of it would stick.. some of it did, some of it didn't.. but it didn't matter, he wasn't under alot of pressure to ice a winning team.

Bowman's been charged with maintaining a consistent level of excellent play. The goal is no longer to just be there.. the goal is to win the division and challenge for the Cup. The pressure is to ice a team capable of winning the Stanley Cup every year.

I appreciate what Tallon did for the Hawks, I really do.. but Bowman's job is far more difficult and yet, for the most part, all he does is get **** on by a fanbase that hopped on the bandwagon in 2010 and now blames him for alot of the problems that now plague the Hawks. Some of it is warranted, but most of it is not.

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05-23-2012, 01:42 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Tallon was charged with throwing **** at a wall and seeing if any of it would stick.. some of it did, some of it didn't.. but it didn't matter, he wasn't under alot of pressure to ice a winning team.
Throwing **** at the wall? His trades looked great after he made them and just got better.

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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Bowman's been charged with maintaining a consistent level of excellent play. The goal is no longer to just be there.. the goal is to win the division and challenge for the Cup. The pressure is to ice a team capable of winning the Stanley Cup every year.
He's failed miserably if that is the goal.

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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
I appreciate what Tallon did for the Hawks, I really do.. but Bowman's job is far more difficult and yet, for the most part, all he does is get **** on by a fanbase that hopped on the bandwagon in 2010 and now blames him for alot of the problems that now plague the Hawks. Some of it is warranted, but most of it is not.
Yeah right, it's the people that haven't been around very long that are so tolerant of losing that they can forgive Bowman for crappy seasons. The people that have been around for a long time are sick of losing and don't want to see the team mismanaged as it was for oh so many years.

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05-23-2012, 02:05 PM
  #55
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Really? Tallon took over the team for 4 years and then got fired. Stan then won the Cup. At least give Stan as much time as Talon right? Stan has had 2 seasons since winning the Cup so he gets 2 more. Don't want to make the same "mistake" twice, right?
Stan has been GM for three seasons. He has turned the team from a Stanley Cup Champ to a team that has struggled to make the playoffs.

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05-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Tallon was charged with throwing **** at a wall and seeing if any of it would stick.. some of it did, some of it didn't.. but it didn't matter, he wasn't under alot of pressure to ice a winning team.

Bowman's been charged with maintaining a consistent level of excellent play. The goal is no longer to just be there.. the goal is to win the division and challenge for the Cup. The pressure is to ice a team capable of winning the Stanley Cup every year.

I appreciate what Tallon did for the Hawks, I really do.. but Bowman's job is far more difficult and yet, for the most part, all he does is get **** on by a fanbase that hopped on the bandwagon in 2010 and now blames him for alot of the problems that now plague the Hawks. Some of it is warranted, but most of it is not.
Agree with some of what you wrote. But I disagree calling Tallon backers bandwagon jumpers. If anything it's the opposite. Many of us who support Dale grew up with him and Pat calling the games for decades.

One of my most depressing Hawk memories is walking out of the Chicago Stadium after the Hawks had just lost 1-0 to the Penguins in game 3 of the SCF. That was a lonely drive home. After the 11 game wining streak, it all came to a crashing halt there and the reality set in that once again they were going to fail to win the cup. This came during the strike ravaged season, but also in the season after the Hawks had won the president's cup but were upset by the North stars in the first round. This team has conjured up so many different ways of failing...that when they finally did it, ahhhhhh!

Memories like THAT are what make me appreciate Dale Tallon so much. Thank you Dale Tallon!

I don't agree that Stan's job is tougher. Yes he had to somewhat remake the team, but he had ridiculous assets to trade off to load the chamber back up. That was 2 years ago, and we should be seeing the fruits of that selloff now. In hindsight he probably should have traded some of those assets for prospects that were closer to NHL ready.

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05-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Throwing **** at the wall? His trades looked great after he made them and just got better.
Two of his trades were great. A bunch of his UFA signings were not and his ability to overpay for RFA's is and likely will always be ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
He's failed miserably if that is the goal.
Really? Because with all the pressure that was on him in 2010 he could have really ****ed up that team.. He didn't.

Obviously, the past two seasons have not been as successful as the prior two.. and a large part of that has to do with Tallon's mismagament of the cap.. as has been beaten to death. Bowman's had money to work with once and clearly a bunch of his signings didn't work out. Which is why he'll try again this year and we'll see what happens. I'm sure Bowman learned alot about his team over the past season and I expect a better job to be done this off-season.



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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Yeah right, it's the people that haven't been around very long that are so tolerant of losing that they can forgive Bowman for crappy seasons. The people that have been around for a long time are sick of losing and don't want to see the team mismanaged as it was for oh so many years.
Bowman has done nothing wrong since he's taken over. You can say he could have/should have done more, but he hasn't made an glaring mistaks. He hasn't "mismanaged" anything.

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05-23-2012, 02:07 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Tallon was charged with throwing **** at a wall and seeing if any of it would stick.. some of it did, some of it didn't.. but it didn't matter, he wasn't under alot of pressure to ice a winning team.

Bowman's been charged with maintaining a consistent level of excellent play. The goal is no longer to just be there.. the goal is to win the division and challenge for the Cup. The pressure is to ice a team capable of winning the Stanley Cup every year.

I appreciate what Tallon did for the Hawks, I really do.. but Bowman's job is far more difficult and yet, for the most part, all he does is get **** on by a fanbase that hopped on the bandwagon in 2010 and now blames him for alot of the problems that now plague the Hawks. Some of it is warranted, but most of it is not.
throwing **** at the wall? really?

Dale was also never afraid to admit he made a mistake. He would buyout and/or trade players that didn't work out. Stan will never admit he made a mistake.

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05-23-2012, 02:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Bowman has done nothing wrong since he's taken over. You can say he could have/should have done more, but he hasn't made an glaring mistaks. He hasn't "mismanaged" anything.
I could argue Bowman has done nothing right since he's took over.

In 3 years as GM he's made one good trade and a boatload of awful UFA signings.

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05-23-2012, 02:13 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Bowman has done nothing wrong since he's taken over. You can say he could have/should have done more, but he hasn't made an glaring mistaks. He hasn't "mismanaged" anything.
That goes back to what I was saying earlier, indecision is worse than wrong decision. Doing next to nothing isn't success just because you can't point to X signing or Y trade as being bad. But like you said, he needs to come up big this offseason. What are your thoughts on Oduya? Because if he comes back, we're in bad shape now and going forward in my opinion, basically my exact thoughts about the trade in the first place.

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05-23-2012, 02:13 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sarava View Post
Agree with some of what you wrote. But I disagree calling Tallon backers bandwagon jumpers. If anything it's the opposite. Many of us who support Dale grew up with him and Pat calling the games for decades.

One of my most depressing Hawk memories is walking out of the Chicago Stadium after the Hawks had just lost 1-0 to the Penguins in game 3 of the SCF. That was a lonely drive home. After the 11 game wining streak, it all came to a crashing halt there and the reality set in that once again they were going to fail to win the cup. This came during the strike ravaged season, but also in the season after the Hawks had won the president's cup but were upset by the North stars in the first round. This team has conjured up so many different ways of failing...that when they finally did it, ahhhhhh!

Memories like THAT are what make me appreciate Dale Tallon so much. Thank you Dale Tallon!

I don't agree that Stan's job is tougher. Yes he had to somewhat remake the team, but he had ridiculous assets to trade off to load the chamber back up. That was 2 years ago, and we should be seeing the fruits of that selloff now. In hindsight he probably should have traded some of those assets for prospects that were closer to NHL ready.
I didn't say Tallon backers are Bandwagoners.. I said that, seemingly, the people who hate on Bowman the most are people who jumped on the bandwagon just prior to, or during the Hawks Cup season. Bowman is the reason "fan favourites" like Buff, Versteeg and Ladd are gone.. or at least, reading what some have to say about Bowman, that's the impression I certainly get (I'm not exclusively talking about this board).

In hindsight, people should appreciate that he was able to get quality picks and prospects for players despite teams fully knowning he absolutely had to shed salary.

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05-23-2012, 02:16 PM
  #62
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He didn't "acquire" Brian Campbell. He offered him a ridiculous contract through Free-Agency.

Brian Campbell's first 30+ point season came in 2005-06, which, I believe, was the highest scoring season in the NHL over the past decade. He had 12 goals and 32 assists for 44 points that season, to go along with a nice -14 plus/minus rating. He was 26/27 at the time and had played parts of 5 seasons in the NHL, 6 total Pro seasons, before the 2005-06 season.

Nick Leddy's first 30+ point season came this year, 2011-12. He had 3 goals and 34 assists for 37 points, to go along with a -12 plus/minus rating. He's currently 21 and just got through his second Pro seaosn and first full season in the NHL.
My response was to a guy saying Tallon hasn't made any good trades for Florida. He certainly made Bowman look stupid by trading a beyond useless pylon in Olesz (every dollar he makes is overpayment) for a guy who was very likely top 10 in Norris voting this season.

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05-23-2012, 02:19 PM
  #63
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People that became Hawks fans recently are going to defer to other fans, elders if you will, that they trust based on their own observations. They are trying to form their own opinions based on information provided from all standpoints and if one set of information makes more sense to them or things keep turning out the way a certain faction predicts they will, they are going to start becoming more like those fans than the others. I see it on different sides of different issues with all kinds of different fans both in real life and on the boards. Nothing wrong with either, I'd be doing the same thing as would anyone else.

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05-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #64
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throwing **** at the wall? really?

Dale was also never afraid to admit he made a mistake. He would buyout and/or trade players that didn't work out. Stan will never admit he made a mistake.
What players should Bowman have traded/bought-out?

Stalberg? When his value was at it's lowest? Smart move.

Brunette? On a one-year deal, when the guy signs that one-year deal in an attempt to win a Cup.. yeah, that's a good way to attract UFA's..

What players do/did you want Bowman to trade/buyout/get rid of? He's gotten rid of Tallon's biggest mistake in Huet. He traded away a waste of a high first-round pick in Skille and maybe if Tallon wasn't as bad at drafting as he was from 2005-2008, when the time came for the Hawks to promote some prospects into depth roles Stan would have had more to work with than Skille, Beach, Bickell, Dowell, Lalonde and Simon Danis-Pepin in 2010-11.

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05-23-2012, 02:20 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by salty justice View Post
My response was to a guy saying Tallon hasn't made any good trades for Florida. He certainly made Bowman look stupid by trading a beyond useless pylon in Olesz (every dollar he makes is overpayment) for a guy who was very likely top 10 in Norris voting this season.
lol what? It was a salary dump. Had nothing to do with Bowman thinking he was getting a budding superstar back in return.

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05-23-2012, 02:21 PM
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Yeah, Toronto trades Versteeg for a 1st and a 3rd. Tallon turns around trades a 2nd and 3rd for Versteeg only a couple months later. Versteeg proceeds to have career year. That's another win for Tallon.

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05-23-2012, 02:24 PM
  #67
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My response was to a guy saying Tallon hasn't made any good trades for Florida. He certainly made Bowman look stupid by trading a beyond useless pylon in Olesz (every dollar he makes is overpayment) for a guy who was very likely top 10 in Norris voting this season.
I guess that will depend on what Bowman does with the cap space created by shipping Campbell out and burying Olsez, won't it?

It Chicago signs one of Suter or Weber over the next two seasons (or a player close to that level of impact).. then Bowman looks pretty smart, doesn't he? Meanwhil,e Tallon will be paying Campbell 7.14M in real dollas and caphit when he's 35/36.

But, as I said.. we'll just have to wait and see on that.

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05-23-2012, 02:25 PM
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Cam Barker was believed to be a solid top 4 (potentially top paring) defenseman who was trapped behind the Hawks depth.

Does that discredit the trade, Bubba?
Barker wasn't more than a #6 when Bowman traded him, Bell played in our Top6. Tallon won that trade, I already said it.

Quote:
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I'm not sure if you were a Hawk fan at the time, but when that deal went down it was monumental. It was the biggest acquisition made by the Blackhawks in over a decade. It showed Tallon had the balls to give up a good young player and top prospect to bring in a 1st line player, something the Hawks hadn't had since Daze went down.

It also showed the Blackhawks organization was willing to ice a competitive squad in a way not seen in a long time by giving big money to guys like Havlat and Khabibulin at a time when no one wanted to come to Chicago.





He acquired Campbell and Versteeg for nothing.

It's amazes me that 90% of Hawk fans posting on HF do no even appreciate how long it took for the Hawks to be a competitive team. Tallon played a large role in restructuring the organization and there is no tangible evidence of improvement since his departure.

Bowman has made 1 good trade for a guy who will never be as good as Brian Campbell. Whoop-dee-friggin-doo.
do we have to say again that Smith drafted a lot of the players we've had on the Cup team?

He overpaid Campbell big time and gave him one of the worst contracts ever. Huet was a big Tallon mistake too. McD wanted a splash, but Tallon wanted Huet.


I love this "were you even a fan back then" talk. I still know the article about the Hawks in the yearbook from the german hockey news. Havlat was just called "Mr. Everything" by them.

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05-23-2012, 02:27 PM
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Throwing **** at the wall sounds more like Stan's UFA strategy. Too bad nothing has stuck.

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05-23-2012, 02:28 PM
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Barker wasn't more than a #6 when Bowman traded him, Bell played in our Top6. Tallon won that trade, I already said it.
As I recall, at the time Barker was racking up points on the PP and you could see the bottom was going to fall out as soon as that stopped. It was the ideal time to trade him and I commend Bowman for that. Still, we're talking about years ago and one good move on its own isn't going to bring the Cup back.

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05-23-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
Barker wasn't more than a #6 when Bowman traded him, Bell played in our Top6. Tallon won that trade, I already said it.


do we have to say again that Smith drafted a lot of the players we've had on the Cup team?

He overpaid Campbell big time and gave him one of the worst contracts ever. Huet was a big Tallon mistake too. McD wanted a splash, but Tallon wanted Huet.


I love this "were you even a fan back then" talk. I still know the article about the Hawks in the yearbook from the german hockey news. Havlat was just called "Mr. Everything" by them.
Tallon wanted Khabibulan.

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05-23-2012, 02:29 PM
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Crucify him for Campbell but Huet, no, how can we believe the man that signed Khabby, kept him and wanted to resign him would bring in Huet at that salary. Just doesn't make sense. And that's not even mentioning it was Tallon who brought Niemi over.

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05-23-2012, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
As I recall, at the time Barker was racking up points on the PP and you could see the bottom was going to fall out as soon as that stopped. It was the ideal time to trade him and I commend Bowman for that. Still, we're talking about years ago and one good move on its own isn't going to bring the Cup back.
No, Barker was great the year before. In the Cup year, he was our worst player

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Tallon wanted Khabibulan.
Tallon wanted to trade him and waived him after nobody wanted him. Do we have to go through this again?

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05-23-2012, 02:31 PM
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No, Barker was great the year before. In the Cup year, he was our worst player



Tallon wanted to trade him and waived him after nobody wanted him. Do we have to go through this again?
you can go through it as many times as you want, you're still wrong.

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05-23-2012, 02:32 PM
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Throwing **** at the wall sounds more like Stan's UFA strategy. Too bad nothing has stuck.
Right, because the quality of UFA's was outstanding.

Most thought the signings were exactly what Chicago needed. Even in hindsight that holds true. The problem is that Chicago needed those qualities in players that made a larger impact, which I'm sure Bowman and his staff now realize.

But, again, it was his first off-season with money and most of his signings were 1-year deals.

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