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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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05-23-2012, 02:14 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by ejaculine View Post
You call that whining? He was asked questions and he answered honestly. None of his answers sounded like he was whining.
My choice of verb was wrong. ... Let's talk about "bad mouthing", then.

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05-23-2012, 02:17 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The funny thing is, last year Montreal was one of the best clubs in the league for generating shots when they were down by more than one goal. All teams that are behind become more aggressive when down to an extent, and so increase their relative shot generation. But in 2010-2011 Martin's Habs were second only to the Caps in dominating the play when down 2 (and were no worse than league-average when down 1).

And despite complaints that they would sit back too much when down, they actually wouldn't allow more shots than the league average either. Again, all teams sit back with leads (it's just good tactical sense) and Montreal wasn't exceptional in this regard. We'll complain about the next coach sitting back on leads, I'm sure (or else we'll complain about blowing them -- this was a problem for Ron Wilson in Toronto).
To your first point: I'm sure they generated shots, but were they quality chances? He very rarely used a 2-man fore-check to generate offence or swarm the slot area with the speed his team had. There was a lot of perimeter play under JM whether it was the 1st or 3rd period regardless of the score. Listen, I'm not saying he was totally cr** - the players share in the responsibility, I just wish he would've turned them loose when it was necessary.

To your second point: There's a difference between holding a lead and sitting back, but yes they did SIT BACK. They'd go up by a goal or 2 and then stop doing everything that made them successful to that point. Case in point: Game 4 against Boston in last year's playoffs. A perfect example of my point. They had them beat, started playing scared to lose and then did just that.

I have respect for JM's hockey knowledge, but his coaching style and philosophy is totally antiquated in the modern NHL.

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05-23-2012, 02:21 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Massive credit to Dave Stubbs, he finally did some reporting!

I know he got caught up with Spacek's golf and family life but at least he found a way to sneak in some Habs related content. Kudos to Stubbs, this is Pulitzer worthy.
Stubbs needs to change his title to the title of this thread and that Pulitzer is a slam dunk.

Very refreshing to see a player give candid answers such as Jaro did.

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05-23-2012, 02:22 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
We all knew Martin was Rain Man and he has had a style that people hated but he has had some level of success. He was just wrong for this market. Look people have been calling Bary Trotz a great hockey mind in Nashville but the guy is also an ultra defensive hockey maniac and if he would have coached in Montreal he would have been ran out of town. It's all about perspectives.
Maybe, but at least Trotz has the big, strong bodies to make that style of play work.

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05-23-2012, 02:23 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
I guess you will see what you want to see....
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Originally Posted by Coldplay View Post
It's ground-breaking because I believe it's the first time a player has outright said stuff that was usually reserved for places like HFBoards (boring, lacking aggression, mis-utilizing our assets, etc.)
And who here actually actively argued that these qualities were strong points for Martin (besides the last one, of which I disagree).

No coach will be stellar in all facets of the occupation, nor should they expected to be. However, I dont see how you cant see certain qualities of Martin that would vastly supersede these qualities, and acknowledge a record of success with him at the helm considering the circumstances. Martin brought nothing but stability and success while he was in charge, and that to me, is more important than any other thing in the business.

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Originally Posted by HCH View Post
A relatively objective person? You HAVE to be kidding. He won't even admit to being wrong when a players comes out and tells us what was happening behind the scenes. By refusing to change his stance in light of this information I think he has illustrated his personal bias.
MathMan strikes me as being a part of a small group of posters who continually back up their arguments with credible information and stats. In addition, I already pointed out a instance where MathMan completely changed his perspective on Martin, he was very against him in his first year (which I would argue was unwarranted, he just couldnt see it yet).

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Originally Posted by BobbyFischer View Post
Geez.

Who invited Buzz Killington to the party?
Okay, continue the senseless bashing circle jerk I guess.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Agreed. I thought adjustments were pretty clear under Martin. Really, I don't know what Spacek is talking about there..
Not to mention the numerous adjustments (not even game related) he had to do due to our huge number of injuries.
People forget that the first season, Martin had half a AHL roster at some point, and we're not talking role players but key guys missing action.
Agreed. Anyone that doubts this needs to take a look at the Washington and Pittsburgh series where countless in-game adjustments were made, and he absolutely destroyed both coaches in the process.

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05-23-2012, 02:25 PM
  #81
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Reality confirms spacek doesn't belong in the nhl.

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05-23-2012, 02:28 PM
  #82
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It's important to note the following:

1. Stubbs has always fanboy'd Spacek. (no kiddin' he goes to lunch with the guy)
2. Spacek isn't an average player. He went for the money and pretty much sucked the entire time he was here.
3. If you do the same candid interview with Cammy you'd get similar responses but probably a different vibe. Cammy, as much as I dislike him, would not have deflected all the blame like Spacek did.
5. Goat was a bad GM. How could you not talk to your god damn players?!
6. Coaching is motivating, and Martin was a bad motivator.
7. I was rooting for Carbo but I think that he'll have the same non-dynamic personality as Martin. A team needs the weekly talk, the one on one, all that and needs it with the coach not the video guys or the equip manager. If you tell a player he's sub-par or slumping he'll tell you he knows, then you could be on the same page and move from there. Also works for relationships.
8. I hate Dave Stubbs and Spacek. If only Stubbs went to Carolina with Spatcho.

Martin was not a bad coach but he did not fit. My biggest complaint was the passive system and Spacek confirms that the players didn't love it either.

Martin did wreck both Wash and Pitts though, I won't even give Halak so much credit as I'd give Martin and the staff. The matchups were tremendous.

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05-23-2012, 02:29 PM
  #83
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Why Mr.Spay-cheque did not signed elsewhere 3 years ago ? He was in the league since 10 years and should had known about Martin's style.

Has he ever bad-mouthed his previous organizations ?

The guy is just frustrated to have been traded mid-season.

I am just glad he did not make the playoffs too.

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05-23-2012, 02:32 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
It's important to note the following:

3. If you do the same candid interview with Cammy uou'd get similar responses but probably a different vibe. Cammy, as much as I dislike him, would not have deflected all the blame like Spacek did.
Isn't he the guy who said the team had a losing mentality while he scored just a few goals and floated until he got traded?

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05-23-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Isn't he the guy who said the team had a losing mentality while he scored just a few goals and floated until he got traded?
These are the worst...

Spacek, Cammy, Pouliot...

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05-23-2012, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Agreed. Anyone that doubts this needs to take a look at the Washington and Pittsburgh series where countless in-game adjustments were made, and he absolutely destroyed both coaches in the process.
People give JM too much credit for that run. He got the players to buy into a system and it worked for a while but that doesn't mean he's a genius at in-game adjustments.

To the contrary, we lost countless games last season because the team kept sitting on leads and imploding in the 3rd. How come he didn't adjust to that?

The 2010 run was misleading. The players blocked an insane amount of shots and Halak was superb. By the time they met the Flyers, they ran out of gas.

Rangers are essentially copying that system right now.

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05-23-2012, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by habitue View Post
Especially Jaro ****ing Spacek, one of the most useless 3,9 milllion d-man we never had.
Kaberle has plenty of time to challenge him for that title.

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05-23-2012, 02:44 PM
  #88
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and Plekanec really liked Martin, so what's the general consensus here? A boring system is boring?

There's obviously things we can take away from this. Primarily that Martin is an old school coach with perhaps a system that needs some tweaking or adaptation based on the players he coaches.

It doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad coach. In fact, spacek said 'he doesn't mind'. Also, as I alluded to, Plekanec claimed he had a great relationship with Martin.

The same should apply to Gauthier. While I strongly dislike him, it's probably fair to say some players liked his management style and some did not.

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05-23-2012, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Kaberle has plenty of time to challenge him for that title.
I won't disagree about that.

The two are awsomely useless...

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05-23-2012, 02:48 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
People give JM too much credit for that run. He got the players to buy into a system and it worked for a while but that doesn't mean he's a genius at in-game adjustments.

To the contrary, we lost countless games last season because the team kept sitting on leads and imploding in the 3rd. How come he didn't adjust to that?

The 2010 run was misleading. The players blocked an insane amount of shots and Halak was superb. By the time they met the Flyers, they ran out of gas.

Rangers are essentially copying that system right now.
People give too much credit to Martin for that series? I made a freaking phrase called the ´magic Halak argument´ that essentially rendered all arguments futile during that run and after by giving all the credit to Halak.

You do realize blocking shots is hugely contingent on coaching right? Structure and positioning is absolutely paramount to successful shot blocking.

I suggest re-watching the full games, seriously. Hell, there were even solid adjustments made in the Philly series. I remember Martin completely changing the neutral zone defensive scheme after game 2 and putting two forwards on each defensemen to counter act the one touch pass that was killing the Habs the first to games. We ended up winning that game 5-1.

We didn`t run out of gas, well I dont think that was the reason we lost anyways, it was a combination of things not least of which was running into a more deep team, and one that had a solid top 4 to shut down our top lines with relative ease.

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05-23-2012, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Isn't he the guy who said the team had a losing mentality while he scored just a few goals and floated until he got traded?
He's a consummate professional off the ice. That was my actual point.

His criticism, while totally stupid to publicize, was right. The team was preparing with a loser mentality, aka playing not to lose. Under Martin and Cunney that was precisely what we did.

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05-23-2012, 02:54 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
People give too much credit to Martin for that series? I made a freaking phrase called the ´magic Halak argument´ that essentially rendered all arguments futile during that run and after by giving all the credit to Halak.

You do realize blocking shots is hugely contingent on coaching right? Structure and positioning is absolutely paramount to successful shot blocking.

I suggest re-watching the full games, seriously. Hell, there were even solid adjustments made in the Philly series. I remember Martin completely changing the neutral zone defensive scheme after game 2 and putting two forwards on each defensemen to counter act the one touch pass that was killing the Habs the first to games. We ended up winning that game 5-1.

We didn`t run out of gas, well I dont think that was the reason we lost anyways, it was a combination of things not least of which was running into a more deep team, and one that had a solid top 4 to shut down our top lines with relative ease.
The team was not big and gritty enough to go through the Flyers + Halak had played too many consecutive games, something he can't do, and never will be able to do... He is a guy good (excellent) enough to play about 50 games a season at most. Playing every games of three series was too much for his physical attributes.


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05-23-2012, 02:57 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I suggest re-watching the full games, seriously. Hell, there were even solid adjustments made in the Philly series. I remember Martin completely changing the neutral zone defensive scheme after game 2 and putting two forwards on each defensemen to counter act the one touch pass that was killing the Habs the first to games. We ended up winning that game 5-1.
Nobody is calling him a horrible coach. He's very good at creating new defensive schemes but never seems to adapt on offense.

I know a lot of people here say it's all about winning games but I strongly disagree. Jaro makes the point that the team should entertain at home and he's spot on. You don't pay top $$ to watch Lemaire, Trotz or JM reinvent a better mouse trap.

Same reason Caps fans are relieved that Hunter is not coming back despite their good playoff run.

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05-23-2012, 02:57 PM
  #94
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To your first point: I'm sure they generated shots, but were they quality chances?
Generally speaking, this question is usually a bit of a red herring -- usually if you generate shots you generate shots of all kinds, quality shots like perimeter shots. If you're behind though, your shooting percentage goes down even as your total shots go up -- this is true of all clubs, not just Montreal.

The question is not that Montreal generated lower percentage shots when behind, they did, as all teams do. The question is whether they did so more than other clubs and, really, there's no reason to believe that.

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Originally Posted by jwolf View Post
He very rarely used a 2-man fore-check to generate offence or swarm the slot area with the speed his team had.
Thing is, Cunneyworth tried the two-man forecheck for a while, and then abandoned it because it failed. It's a good recipe to suffer odd-man rushes, after all.

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To your second point: There's a difference between holding a lead and sitting back, but yes they did SIT BACK. They'd go up by a goal or 2 and then stop doing everything that made them successful to that point.
Yes. The point is all teams do that. And Montreal actually did so less than most.

You can point to anecdotical cases of blown leads for the Habs as you can for any team. Montreal wasn't exceptional.

Generally, if you're up 2 and you limit the opposition to four total scoring chances and you have Price in nets, that tends to be a winning strategy, which is why teams do it. That it does blow up in memorable fashion occasionally is inevitable, but that does not make the strategy unsound -- or less sound than practicing high-risk high-event hockey that is more likely to give the opposition more cracks at getting that lucky bounce that lets them come back.

That's not a failing of Martin, Carbo, Julien, and basically every Habs coach you care to name that has been blamed for exactly the same thing. That's plain strategic sense: teams that are ahead want to slow the game down and play low-event, teams that are behind want to play a fast high-event game.

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05-23-2012, 02:59 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Nobody is calling him a horrible coach. He's very good at creating new defensive schemes but never seems to adapt on offense.

I know a lot of people here say it's all about winning games but I strongly disagree. Jaro makes the point that the team should entertain at home and he's spot on. You don't pay top $$ to watch Lemaire, Trotz or JM reinvent a better mouse trap.

Same reason Caps fans are relieved that Hunter is not coming back despite their good playoff run.
Everyone wants a clown behind the bench a la Tortorella !

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05-23-2012, 03:00 PM
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Everyomne wants a clown behind the bench a la Tortorella !
Aren't you the one pushing for Roy?

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05-23-2012, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
Same reason Caps fans are relieved that Hunter is not coming back despite their good playoff run.
I thought they were relieved because he coached like Cunneyworth except with even more overplaying grinders over good players?

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05-23-2012, 03:07 PM
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I thought they were relieved because he coached like Cunneyworth except with even more overplaying grinders over good players?
Proving my point. Who wants to watch Ovie play the same number of minutes as Darche even if that is a winning strategy?

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05-23-2012, 03:17 PM
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Proving my point. Who wants to watch Ovie play the same number of minutes as Darche even if that is a winning strategy?
I think you mean Jay Beagle, who had more TOI than Ovechkin in at least half the playoffs, and often more than Semin and Backstrom as well.

(Darche, played strictly fourth-line minutes: 11:16 per game in 10-11, including less than 10 minutes at evene; the only players who had less 5-on-5 TOI than him were AHL callups and fellow grinders Pyatt and White.)

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05-23-2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
People give JM too much credit for that run. He got the players to buy into a system and it worked for a while but that doesn't mean he's a genius at in-game adjustments.

To the contrary, we lost countless games last season because the team kept sitting on leads and imploding in the 3rd. How come he didn't adjust to that?

The 2010 run was misleading. The players blocked an insane amount of shots and Halak was superb. By the time they met the Flyers, they ran out of gas.

Rangers are essentially copying that system right now.
Well first off, I don't know too many people praising Martin for the POs that year. Actually see more refusing to give him an ounce of credit.

As for last year, after the horrible start (where we simply couldn't buy a win. Having more scoring chances than buffalo had shots come to mind.), we went 12-7-5. Seems to me like he was able to stear the boat back in line.

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