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Would you take Carle back?

View Poll Results: Would you like to re-sign carle?
Yes 38 23.60%
No 123 76.40%
Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-22-2012, 09:36 AM
  #401
BringBackStevens
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Carle is not worth a penny more than what he makes now. He's a decent player that lets moments of idiocy prevent him from being a truly good defender.

He creates very little offense outside of starting the break out effectively, and paying him for his leech assists would be a mistake.

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05-22-2012, 10:01 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I have seen Carle do the things I've mentioned with more frequency than others....and nothing you say can change that fact. Let's agree to disagree.
First of all that isn't a fact. It is your opinion. One which you can't back up with any factual evidence. That much is clear. And the reason why you can't do it is because you opinion is not accurate. You brought my credibiity into question. So were gonna find out who is credible and who isn't.


Last edited by VanSciver: 05-22-2012 at 10:09 AM.
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05-23-2012, 09:32 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
First of all that isn't a fact. It is your opinion. One which you can't back up with any factual evidence. That much is clear. And the reason why you can't do it is because you opinion is not accurate. You brought my credibiity into question. So were gonna find out who is credible and who isn't.
I have seen it with my own eyes, thus it is accurate. This message board has plenty of comments from others that point these same things out, many times over the course of Carle's tenure.

You are not the judge to determine the veracity of my statements or view on the matter and nothing you can say or do will change my view on the matter. I have my own reasons to doubt the validity of much, if not all of your commentary so I cannot take them seriously.


Last edited by CanadianFlyer88: 05-23-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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05-23-2012, 09:58 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by fauxflex View Post
I have seen it with my own eyes, thus it is accurate. This message board has plenty of comments from others that point these same things out, many times over the course of Carle's tenure.

You are not the judge to determine the veracity of my statements or view on the matter and nothing you can say or do will change my view on the matter. I have my own reasons to doubt the validity of much, if not all of your commentary so I cannot take them seriously.
If what you say about Carle's play was accurate, there would be statistical evidence available in the advanced stats to show that it was accurate. All of the metrics available clearly show that Carle is a reliable player in his own end, and is a quality player. Carle like any other player in the NHL is not mistake free. However his quality play far, far outnumbers his mistakes. And when he's on the ice, good things happen for his team the overwhelming majority of times. And is the reason why the Coaching staff trusts him and relies on him. And plays him 23-25 minutes a game. In all situations.


Last edited by CanadianFlyer88: 05-23-2012 at 10:57 AM. Reason: edited qdp
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05-23-2012, 10:27 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
If what you say about Carle's play was accurate, there would be statistical evidence available in the advanced stats to show that it was accurate. All of the metrics available clearly show that Carle is a reliable player in his own end, and is a quality player. Carle like any other player in the NHL is not mistake free. However his quality play far, far outnumbers his mistakes. And when he's on the ice, good things happen for his team the overwhelming majority of times. And is the reason why the Coaching staff trusts him and relies on him. And plays him 23-25 minutes a game. In all situations.
Honest question: Based on your research and comparables, what cap number would make you uncomfortable when it comes to resigning Carle? $4.5? $5? $5.5? More?

This poll, though well-intentioned, seems useless, simply because a yes/no response ignores the reaction of 99% of rationale posters, which has to be "Yes, I'd like to have him back at a number less than _x_."

What differs (widely) are individuals' valuation of that number, no?

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05-23-2012, 10:42 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Honest question: Based on your research and comparables, what cap number would make you uncomfortable when it comes to resigning Carle? $4.5? $5? $5.5? More?

This poll, though well-intentioned, seems useless, simply because a yes/no response ignores the reaction of 99% of rationale posters, which has to be "Yes, I'd like to have him back at a number less than _x_."

What differs (widely) are individuals' valuation of that number, no?
I'd be very comfortable with 5M. I'd start to get uncomfortable at 5.5M. I think 5M is a good number for him and is market value. I keep hearing around 4.8M as guesstimates. That would be an excellent deal for the Flyers.

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05-23-2012, 02:18 PM
  #407
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Lol, Vansciver and his "facts". Or more like the stuff he makes up in his head, then gets annoyed when people don't agree with him.

Also, perhaps the dumbest conversation I have ever seen.

http://flyersfaithful.com/2012/05/22...le-ryan-suter/

If you would honestly take Matt Carle over Suter, then you have absolutly no idea what you are doing.

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05-23-2012, 03:33 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Lol, Vansciver and his "facts". Or more like the stuff he makes up in his head, then gets annoyed when people don't agree with him.

Also, perhaps the dumbest conversation I have ever seen.

http://flyersfaithful.com/2012/05/22...le-ryan-suter/

If you would honestly take Matt Carle over Suter, then you have absolutly no idea what you are doing.
Seemed like one of the guys, the one in favor of Matt Carle, knew exactly what he was talking about.

And I'm more then willing to discuss the facts about Carle with you at any time. And I will also provide information from credible sources that will prove that your statement that I make them up in my head is indeed a false statement. I'm ready whenever you are to begin.

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05-23-2012, 03:37 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Lol, Vansciver and his "facts". Or more like the stuff he makes up in his head, then gets annoyed when people don't agree with him.

Also, perhaps the dumbest conversation I have ever seen.

http://flyersfaithful.com/2012/05/22...le-ryan-suter/

If you would honestly take Matt Carle over Suter, then you have absolutly no idea what you are doing.
I think the question is really about relative cost...

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05-23-2012, 03:40 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I think the question is really about relative cost...
Exactly. If both players cost the same, I'm taking Suter. But they aren't going to cost the same. And you to weigh whether the difference is worth it.

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05-23-2012, 03:48 PM
  #411
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I think the question is really about relative cost...
That article clearly demonstrates how just basing your opinion on facts can make you look completly stupid.

Just look at the Matt Carle had more hits than Suter in the regular season..............

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05-23-2012, 03:53 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
That article clearly demonstrates how just basing your opinion on facts can make you look completly stupid.

Just look at the Matt Carle had more hits than Suter in the regular season..............
Yea, Hal who is in favor of Carle, and also brought the facts sure looked stupid. While Steve, who based his opinion on reputation and feeling, and obviously had no clue what he was talking about didn't look stupid. LOL

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05-23-2012, 03:59 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Exactly. If both players cost the same, I'm taking Suter. But they aren't going to cost the same. And you to weigh whether the difference is worth it.
Exactly. The question is, do you make the other adjustments necessary to fit Suter's bigger salary under our cap (i.e. ditch JVR to create room), or do you sign Carle and keep JVR?

In the end, if signing Suter was a sure thing, you think about it. It's not. There will be at least 10 teams bidding seriously for him on July 1. He can hold a Brad Richards style - come to my agent's office - auction and accept bids.

If you let Carle walk, then strike out on Suter, who is going to play those 24 minutes at such a high level next year? Gus? MAB? Not even remotely ready for that workload.

And how much is this new player going to cost in terms of salary and/or giving up other assets in a trade. Are there any bargain UFAs better than Carle? Anybody we can acquire in trade as good as Carle that won't cost us JVR or Simmonds or Read?

Sometimes the devil you know is better - and Carle is someone we know is a solid workhorse and good citizen and we won't have to create more holes elsewhere filling a spot we know he can fill.

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05-23-2012, 04:12 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Sometimes the devil you know is better - and Carle is someone we know is a solid workhorse and good citizen and we won't have to create more holes elsewhere filling a spot we know he can fill.
It's even more complicated than that. Does securing Carle prevent us from making a run at Weber next season? This year, I'd rather have Schultz at Max ELC than Suter at 7M or Carle at 5M .Does Schultz not sign because we locked up Carle and he figures we won't have the playing time he's looking for?

Last season, could anyone have reasonably predicted that after we sign Bryz, then Varlamov gets traded for an arm and a leg, that Vokoun signs for dirt? No, but it sure got Monday Morning Quarterbacked to death.

At the end of the day, you evaluate what player A is worth to your team. You evaluate what player B is worth to your team. You make offer A their offer and B their offer. First to sign gets the deal. If neither sign, then you move on rather than pay either more than you believe they're worth.

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05-23-2012, 04:19 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Exactly. The question is, do you make the other adjustments necessary to fit Suter's bigger salary under our cap (i.e. ditch JVR to create room), or do you sign Carle and keep JVR?

In the end, if signing Suter was a sure thing, you think about it. It's not. There will be at least 10 teams bidding seriously for him on July 1. He can hold a Brad Richards style - come to my agent's office - auction and accept bids.

If you let Carle walk, then strike out on Suter, who is going to play those 24 minutes at such a high level next year? Gus? MAB? Not even remotely ready for that workload.

And how much is this new player going to cost in terms of salary and/or giving up other assets in a trade. Are there any bargain UFAs better than Carle? Anybody we can acquire in trade as good as Carle that won't cost us JVR or Simmonds or Read?

Sometimes the devil you know is better - and Carle is someone we know is a solid workhorse and good citizen and we won't have to create more holes elsewhere filling a spot we know he can fill.
The problem I have with this anology is that Carle doesn't eat up 24 minutes at a high level.

Sure he plays 24 minutes, but in that time, you get several turn-overs, weak handling, terrible shooting, and no physicality. Just because he is playing 24 minutes a night, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Timonen - Gustaffson -20
Coburn - Grossman -20
Mezaros - ? -20

That ? could be any of the following

Suter - Yeah it's possible, would be nice

Scott Hannan - cheap, reliable, physical and solid

Bryan Allen - Same as the above. gets the job done

Johnny Oduya - Physical, eats minutes, occasional brain fart

Brad Stuart - possible?

Jason Garrison - possible

There's quite a few middle/bottom pairing D on the market that can be had for relatively cheap.

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05-23-2012, 04:32 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The problem I have with this anology is that Carle doesn't eat up 24 minutes at a high level.

Sure he plays 24 minutes, but in that time, you get several turn-overs, weak handling, terrible shooting, and no physicality. Just because he is playing 24 minutes a night, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Timonen - Gustaffson -20
Coburn - Grossman -20
Mezaros - ? -20

That ? could be any of the following

Suter - Yeah it's possible, would be nice

Scott Hannan - cheap, reliable, physical and solid

Bryan Allen - Same as the above. gets the job done

Johnny Oduya - Physical, eats minutes, occasional brain fart

Brad Stuart - possible?

Jason Garrison - possible

There's quite a few middle/bottom pairing D on the market that can be had for relatively cheap.
exactly, he was eating up those minutes cuz Lavi basicly had no choice.. he worked with the staff he had..

this year i suspect we'll see a much different Defense. ala no Carle

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05-23-2012, 04:44 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
The problem I have with this anology is that Carle doesn't eat up 24 minutes at a high level.

Sure he plays 24 minutes, but in that time, you get several turn-overs, weak handling, terrible shooting, and no physicality. Just because he is playing 24 minutes a night, doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Timonen - Gustaffson -20
Coburn - Grossman -20
Mezaros - ? -20

That ? could be any of the following

Suter - Yeah it's possible, would be nice

Scott Hannan - cheap, reliable, physical and solid

Bryan Allen - Same as the above. gets the job done

Johnny Oduya - Physical, eats minutes, occasional brain fart

Brad Stuart - possible?

Jason Garrison - possible

There's quite a few middle/bottom pairing D on the market that can be had for relatively cheap.
Yes Coaches routinely play players you describe 24 minutes a night. Because they want turnovers, weak handling, terrible shooting and no physicality on the ice that much. I won't bother supplying any facts that refute your opinion. As you would think those facts would be stupid.

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Originally Posted by Flyerfan4life View Post
exactly, he was eating up those minutes cuz Lavi basicly had no choice.. he worked with the staff he had..

this year i suspect we'll see a much different Defense. ala no Carle
How do you explain the minutes that Carle played when there was a choice. When everyone including Pronger was healthy?

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05-23-2012, 04:57 PM
  #418
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See, people talk about getting rid of Carle with this fixation that Suter is the missing key. If the Flyers don't get Suter and Carle walks, there really isn't a viable free agent option. Denis Wideman? Even worse than Carle. Brad Stuart? His wife has to remain on the west coast because she has children with another guy who has rights to the kids. Jason Garrison? Are you willing to throw 4+ million at a guy who had one good year? Bryan Allen? His knees are done and is about as mobile as a filing cabinet. Scott Hannan? Might be a good second/third pairing guy, but you don't want to play him more than 20+ minutes a night.

Fact is, as much as people dislike Carle, the options that are available really aren't that much better. On top of it, defense is a premium position, so you're going to pay up no matter what. So, if you let Carle walk, are you comfortable paying a guy like Jason Garrison 4+ million a year? Are you comfortable giving Bryan Allen 3+ million a year? I could go on and on, but that money might be better spent keeping Carle. Personally, I wouldn't be upset if the Flyers let Carle walk, but at the same time, I think Carle is a good player that gets crapped on quite bit by people. It's a given that we all know his defensive game is terrible. But by the same token, it's not as if the team defense in Philadelphia is great. I expect things to tighten up next season and if a guy like Terry Murray returns, then I can see Carle's defensive game improving by leaps and bounds. I could live with that as well.

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05-23-2012, 05:04 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
See, people talk about getting rid of Carle with this fixation that Suter is the missing key. If the Flyers don't get Suter and Carle walks, there really isn't a viable free agent option. Denis Wideman? Even worse than Carle. Brad Stuart? His wife has to remain on the west coast because she has children with another guy who has rights to the kids. Jason Garrison? Are you willing to throw 4+ million at a guy who had one good year? Bryan Allen? His knees are done and is about as mobile as a filing cabinet. Scott Hannan? Might be a good second/third pairing guy, but you don't want to play him more than 20+ minutes a night.

Fact is, as much as people dislike Carle, the options that are available really aren't that much better. On top of it, defense is a premium position, so you're going to pay up no matter what. So, if you let Carle walk, are you comfortable paying a guy like Jason Garrison 4+ million a year? Are you comfortable giving Bryan Allen 3+ million a year? I could go on and on, but that money might be better spent keeping Carle. Personally, I wouldn't be upset if the Flyers let Carle walk, but at the same time, I think Carle is a good player that gets crapped on quite bit by people. It's a given that we all know his defensive game is terrible. But by the same token, it's not as if the team defense in Philadelphia is great. I expect things to tighten up next season and if a guy like Terry Murray returns, then I can see Carle's defensive game improving by leaps and bounds. I could live with that as well.
I think you make a lot of sense. Except when you get to the part about Carle's defensive game is terrible. That just isn't the case. Carle is solid in his own end. Is he a shutdown physical defender? No he's not. But he's solid in his read's ,solid in his coverages. And is a very good shot blocker. He uses body position to win puck battles, and is a very good transition player in getting the puck out the other way. Is he on the level of Timonen or Pronger. No he's not. But saying his defensive game is terrible, just isn't accurate

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05-23-2012, 05:09 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
See, people talk about getting rid of Carle with this fixation that Suter is the missing key. If the Flyers don't get Suter and Carle walks, there really isn't a viable free agent option. Denis Wideman? Even worse than Carle. Brad Stuart? His wife has to remain on the west coast because she has children with another guy who has rights to the kids. Jason Garrison? Are you willing to throw 4+ million at a guy who had one good year? Bryan Allen? His knees are done and is about as mobile as a filing cabinet. Scott Hannan? Might be a good second/third pairing guy, but you don't want to play him more than 20+ minutes a night.

Fact is, as much as people dislike Carle, the options that are available really aren't that much better. On top of it, defense is a premium position, so you're going to pay up no matter what. So, if you let Carle walk, are you comfortable paying a guy like Jason Garrison 4+ million a year? Are you comfortable giving Bryan Allen 3+ million a year? I could go on and on, but that money might be better spent keeping Carle. Personally, I wouldn't be upset if the Flyers let Carle walk, but at the same time, I think Carle is a good player that gets crapped on quite bit by people. It's a given that we all know his defensive game is terrible. But by the same token, it's not as if the team defense in Philadelphia is great. I expect things to tighten up next season and if a guy like Terry Murray returns, then I can see Carle's defensive game improving by leaps and bounds. I could live with that as well.
Intetesting...you must not have looked at the stats.

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05-23-2012, 06:01 PM
  #421
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I think you make a lot of sense. Except when you get to the part about Carle's defensive game is terrible. That just isn't the case. Carle is solid in his own end. Is he a shutdown physical defender? No he's not. But he's solid in his read's ,solid in his coverages. And is a very good shot blocker. He uses body position to win puck battles, and is a very good transition player in getting the puck out the other way. Is he on the level of Timonen or Pronger. No he's not. But saying his defensive game is terrible, just isn't accurate
Ok then his defensive game is just a tad above terrible

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05-23-2012, 06:15 PM
  #422
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Ok then his defensive game is just a tad above terrible
No, his defensive game is solid and reliable.

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05-23-2012, 06:29 PM
  #423
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Ok then his defensive game is just a tad above terrible
I wouldn't characterize his D game as terrible or a just tad above. I would say it's a bit below average. Carle counts on skating and a good stick and employs these as his primary method of defense, which accounts for most of his blocked shots...however, in doing so, he sometimes gets caught watching/playing the puck and can get beat. Carle lacks physicality which, at times, makes him vulnerable to attacks by players coming over the blueline with speed and/or those with the skill to deke around his stick-check. His lack of physicality also, at times, manifests itself in weak coverage on the slot area and a lack of effectiveness along the boards.

With that said, I have seen some modest improvement in Carle's physical game over time, but not enough to close the hole in that part of his game. If the Flyers re-up Carle I hope he is able to show continued improvement in this area.

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05-23-2012, 06:51 PM
  #424
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So a defenseman is not supposed to watch or play the puck? That's a new one. Carle's blocked shots result from his strong positional play, and his ability to read plays. Which makes him the best shot blocker on the team, and one of the best in the League at it. His primary method of defense is that strong positional play. And for a defenseman of a smaller stature, he is adept at using body position to seal off players from the puck, and under pressure make a strong and solid outlet to alleviate pressure, and transition the puck the other way. While Carle will never be labeled a physical player, he also isn't pushed around. Those are his strengths.
His weaknesses are his lack of a quality shot, which lessons his ability on the point of the PP. His lack of being able to physically man handle bigger players around the net. And he sometimes plays a high risk passing game and tries to occasionally force pucks in tight areas. Which he has been getting better and better at in his time here. to the point where he doesn't make mistakes very often. He is a solid and reliable defender in his own end. As well as a very good passer and playmaker on the back end. His overall skill package lends itself to a solid #2 NHL defenseman who makes a very good compliment to a #1 defenseman in a top pairing. His overall game is also strong enough to play with lesser experienced player and still be effective. As he did for a lot of this past Season with Bourdon.

I've offered an objective and unbiased analysis of Carle as a player. Which includes both negatives and positives. When you read post after post that only speaks of the negatives in his game. H0w can that be from an objective source? When all the NHL pundits, as well as all the available metrics on Carle as a player are overwhelmingly positive?

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05-23-2012, 07:22 PM
  #425
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Hits aren't necessarily a viable stat anyways. They're unofficial, and numbers people usually only count road hits as to eliminate home biases.

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