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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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05-23-2012, 02:36 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Generally speaking, this question is usually a bit of a red herring -- usually if you generate shots you generate shots of all kinds, quality shots like perimeter shots. If you're behind though, your shooting percentage goes down even as your total shots go up -- this is true of all clubs, not just Montreal.

The question is not that Montreal generated lower percentage shots when behind, they did, as all teams do. The question is whether they did so more than other clubs and, really, there's no reason to believe that.



Thing is, Cunneyworth tried the two-man forecheck for a while, and then abandoned it because it failed. It's a good recipe to suffer odd-man rushes, after all.



Yes. The point is all teams do that. And Montreal actually did so less than most.

You can point to anecdotical cases of blown leads for the Habs as you can for any team. Montreal wasn't exceptional.

Generally, if you're up 2 and you limit the opposition to four total scoring chances and you have Price in nets, that tends to be a winning strategy, which is why teams do it. That it does blow up in memorable fashion occasionally is inevitable, but that does not make the strategy unsound -- or less sound than practicing high-risk high-event hockey that is more likely to give the opposition more cracks at getting that lucky bounce that lets them come back.

That's not a failing of Martin, Carbo, Julien, and basically every Habs coach you care to name that has been blamed for exactly the same thing. That's plain strategic sense: teams that are ahead want to slow the game down and play low-event, teams that are behind want to play a fast high-event game.
Which is precisely my point. If he ever employed that tactic, the instances were very few and far between.

As for playing with the lead, I never meant to imply that any team should play fire wagon hockey when it's not necessary. You play a tight-checking game while taking away the passing lanes. But more often than not, JM had his team sitting back on their heels between the red line and their own blue line waiting for the other team to come at them. Not all teams do that, it does NOT slow down the game and it's a recipe for disaster. Especially when you start playing that way midway through the 2nd period.

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05-23-2012, 02:37 PM
  #102
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Of course, Spacek didn't have an axe to grind. His comments may or may not be wide of the mark but I'd be interested in hearing from current Habs who performed well this past season. They don't have to fear repercussions for speaking out against Martin or Gauthier. As for Kirk Muller, I wonder why the Hurricanes didn't make the playoffs. And will Spacek be playing in the NHL next season?

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05-23-2012, 02:49 PM
  #103
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Not a fan of Martin's at all and feel he's a decent coach, but Spacek's comments ring true, everything he said is how I felt when watching the Habs. I can't just dismiss these comments like many on here.

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05-23-2012, 02:54 PM
  #104
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Not a fan of Martin's at all and feel he's a decent coach, but Spacek's comments ring true, everything he said is how I felt when watching the Habs. I can't just dismiss these comments like many on here.
We are not dismissing them. We pretty much knew all about that already... It's the messenger who is pissing me off, a guy who cashed nearly 12 million bucks in MTL for what ?

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05-23-2012, 02:55 PM
  #105
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How did you get along with the Montreal media?

I always enjoyed them. Never had a problem except for (name withheld at Spacek’s request). I didn’t like him from the first day and I don’t think he liked me. He never talked to me after we’d won, but when we lost, I knew he’d be coming. I always had the feeling that he’d ask a question that he’d already answered for his story, or would try to lead me the way he wanted me to go. (laughs) I’d always try to (mess) with him and talk about something else.
Someone else asked a couple of pages ago, who's the journalist he's talking about ?!

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05-23-2012, 03:21 PM
  #106
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Could we please stop calling it the "Gainey/Gauthier era". The Gainey era was a good one and the Gauthier era was a horrible one. They were not the same. Spacek only refers to the last 2 years when it all went down hill.

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05-23-2012, 03:23 PM
  #107
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Could we please stop calling it the "Gainey/Gauthier era". The Gainey era was a good one and the Gauthier era was a horrible one. They were not the same. Spacek only refers to the last 2 years when it all went down hill.
I'd say it's the opposite, Gainey's moves doomed the Gauthier era with cap suffocating trades and signings.

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05-23-2012, 03:28 PM
  #108
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I'd say it's the opposite, Gainey's moves doomed the Gauthier era with cap suffocating trades and signings.
I think if Gauthier hadn't panicked after a bad start, we wouldn't have had such a problem with "suffocating trades and signings".

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05-23-2012, 03:29 PM
  #109
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I'd say it's the opposite, Gainey's moves doomed the Gauthier era with cap suffocating trades and signings.
What surprise of you saying that. Gauthier is just as much responsible of the signings as is Gainey.

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05-23-2012, 03:31 PM
  #110
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Could we please stop calling it the "Gainey/Gauthier era". The Gainey era was a good one and the Gauthier era was a horrible one. They were not the same. Spacek only refers to the last 2 years when it all went down hill.
No, it was a respectable era at best, even considering the Gomez and Riberio trade.

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05-23-2012, 03:38 PM
  #111
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so Martin and Gauthier are who we thought they were... at least according to ex-players.


luckily, that era is done. Hopefully Bergevin and whomever he decides on to coach the team are better suited for the positions of GM/Coach then their predecessors were.

With the drafting strength of the organization, plus the financial situation of the franchise, a competent GM & Coach should be able to build a contender in the not-so-distant future.

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05-23-2012, 03:42 PM
  #112
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I still remember people hating on me when we were on that run to the cup for hating Martin.

Now everyone is seeing how dumb this guy is. We all suffered together and hopefully next year is a good year.

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05-23-2012, 03:46 PM
  #113
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Basically all he blames Martin for is his defensive style and communication. I don't worry much about communication with grown up men specially if he have assistants that can do it. The defensive style of play might be boring but it's very effective. We'll have 2 defensive team in the final this year and it's far from the exception. Players hate that but the goal is to win, not to boost stats and salaries.

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05-23-2012, 03:49 PM
  #114
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I still remember people hating on me when we were on that run to the cup for hating Martin.

Now everyone is seeing how dumb this guy is. We all suffered together and hopefully next year is a good year.
Why on earth would you hate Martin in the playoffs that year ! Giving up 50 shots a night is how good teams win hockey games.

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05-23-2012, 03:51 PM
  #115
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Could we please stop calling it the "Gainey/Gauthier era". The Gainey era was a good one and the Gauthier era was a horrible one. They were not the same. Spacek only refers to the last 2 years when it all went down hill.
Somewhat. End of gainey era wasn't as calm and patient as his other years.

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I'd say it's the opposite, Gainey's moves doomed the Gauthier era with cap suffocating trades and signings.
Nashville, Phoenix and others don't spend to cap. If we REALLY wanna say 7.3 away from the cap crippled us then dunno what to say. Gomez could've been put in minors or anything really. The habs spend one of the most in the league, and if ottawa, nashville, etc... can make the playoffs and be competitive, there's no real 'cap suffocation' here.

Gauthier was just bad. Gainey was significantly better but when comparing to Gauthier, it isn't saying much. Gainey's tenure is pretty much 'average to above average' if you include his Gomez mistake. It wasn't excellent. Gauthier's? Very unimpressive. No leadership, nothing. Prob a great assistant GM but terrible GM.

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05-23-2012, 03:55 PM
  #116
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Basically all he blames Martin for is his defensive style and communication. I don't worry much about communication with grown up men specially if he have assistants that can do it. The defensive style of play might be boring but it's very effective. We'll have 2 defensive team in the final this year and it's far from the exception. Players hate that but the goal is to win, not to boost stats and salaries.
Bingo.

And as a fan, if someone can look at me and say they were bored watching JM's team in the playoffs then I rest my case.

I know I've been watching the Habs for years, endured the 90s and I can honestly say I was on the absolute edge of my seat much more under JM than any coach in a very long time. I felt if they could keep the game tight they could win absolutely any game.

And I'm pretty sure many of us here thought it was our year after we took out Washington and Pittsburgh. Not to mention we came within a goal of not letting Boston win a Cup.

I am excited about moving forward however and if we can win with a more offensive system sounds good to me. But to me what JM did with this (overrated imho) team was pretty remarkable.

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05-23-2012, 03:56 PM
  #117
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Basically all he blames Martin for is his defensive style and communication. I don't worry much about communication with grown up men specially if he have assistants that can do it. The defensive style of play might be boring but it's very effective. We'll have 2 defensive team in the final this year and it's far from the exception. Players hate that but the goal is to win, not to boost stats and salaries.
Funny enough I rarely understand what Sutter in LA is saying. I remember brown saying "at first we couldn't understand, and now he doesn't have to say anything, we already know".

Yes, it was a joke, but the message is there. Same with Martin. Martin didn't really have to say much. Spacek said it himself, if Martin was waiting in room, it's not good.

I guess people think a coach who has to talk to his players daily because he can't express himself correctly the first time is a good thing?

Martin is a quiet guy but well respected. As I said earlier, Plekanec had a good relationship with him so I don't see how this is a universal rule that he's disliked.

Martin is a good coach and as you pointed out defense wins. Perhaps I would want Martin to adapt and play a little more open to fit our speed. Less dump, more puck possesion but the basic idea is still right, it just needs to be tweaked to fit our player's strengths.

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05-23-2012, 04:01 PM
  #118
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I still remember people hating on me when we were on that run to the cup for hating Martin.

Now everyone is seeing how dumb this guy is. We all suffered together and hopefully next year is a good year.
How is he dumb? He makes the playoffs 75% of the time (or more if u leave this season inconclusive as we were competing for a spot).

Yah he's boring, and NYR WOW me right? LA was winning most of their games by little amounts before and playing defense first. Exciting!

Hopefully next year is a good year? Yah, of course, we all do. Problem is, maybe some coach will rebound the team after an off year, but there is not one candidate available with more experience and a better resume than Martin. Oh yeah, please don't mention cup wins by guys with hall of fame line-ups. That avalanche team proved one thing to me(I was an avs fan and habs fan when i was younger), no matter who the coach is, they can win anyway.

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05-23-2012, 04:01 PM
  #119
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Again, nothing will be settled with that article 'cause strangely, people in here can't talk about what we don' tknow. Yet, when a player, WHO PLAYED FOR HIM, makes his comments....it's still not good enough. So what would it take to see Martin as he really was? An admission of Martin himself? See, Martin, himself, admitted that he was too patient with players like Gomez and some others. Is that good enough? Or is Martin wrong about Martin? I mean, I do understand, it's not because a player has an opinion that it should mean it's the bible and everybody should adhere to it. But at the worst, it solidifies what some people in here thought that was laughed at when they said it mostly because "They have no idea since they are not in the room" type of statement. Spacek isn,t the first one in that room to have mentioned how it used to work, whether it's the coach or this fabulous GM we used to have.

But then, to Martin's defense, 'cause the guy was not all bad, it is also possible that player overestimate their real talent. Wouldn't be the first time it happens. So whether Spacek thinks we had the players to play another style, chances are we didn't really. Then it goes back to Mr. Gauthier......

What is really strange in this is that most people who keeps defending Martin.....also keeps defending Gauthier.....and also defended Gainey for quite some time.......and in the same breath are mentioned that Timmins is the best head scout in the business. Which brings the question.....how come I'm not aware that we won the last 5 Cups? If Martin did the incredibly best with the group he had....shouldn't it be a reason to enough to criticize Gainey and GAuthier's work since Martin was only able to bring us to where we are at right now? Especially since the REAL truth in this is that we DO have the best head scout in the business? Martin isn't the awful coach that some thing he was. But a guy who was not that long ago seen mostly as the head coach of the past, it is possible that as many games you had coaching, it might have been time to let it go. Strangely, a guy just as old like Ken Hitchcock was applauded for having chances and adapted, something which Martin seems unable to do. It's one thing to be a vet, it's another to recognize in which era you are playing in. Martin wasn't bad. But he wasn't great either. One thing I'm sure, he was CLEARLY not the problem though. Gainey and Gauthier ****ed up that team, nobody else. A Gainey that succeeded to ****ed up the work that....Gainey himself did after the Savard era. And a Gauthier who just put the final nail in the coffin which some of his hockey decisions but mostly which the freak show he created that was disrespectful to the Montreal Canadiens.

Oh and I'm surely too sensitive. But somebody change the title. Totally misleading and disrespectful as much as I wasn't a fan of both.
As far as this goes, myself and I think a few other people who liked the Martin/Gauthier era would point to the period of the 2010-11 season plus the first 20 games of 2011-12 as the best overall Habs team since the dark ages. This was a team that was strong on both special teams, had solid goal-tending and controlled the puck 5 on 5 like a competitive team.

Those who liked that generally think that Gauthier was a complete disaster after his last really good move of signing Erik Cole. After which there was a process of burning up his goodwill, largely based on his panicked blunderings after the team's slow start. Up to that point management blunders could be forgiven on the basis of good overall process and results but they can't when the team started going backwards like it did.

As for Martin, the gap between his defenders and detractors is pretty much unreconcilable at this point because both camps are largely looking at different things and using completely different metrics. As far as I'm concerned he had the team moving in the right direction as far as overall team game goes and his influence was shown by the utter collapse in team play under his replacement. What his players thought about him during that time isn't apt to change my mind because it was never a particularly important thing for me in the first place.


Last edited by Talks to Goalposts: 05-23-2012 at 04:06 PM.
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05-23-2012, 04:13 PM
  #120
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I know I've been watching the Habs for years, endured the 90s and I can honestly say I was on the absolute edge of my seat much more under JM than any coach in a very long time. I felt if they could keep the game tight they could win absolutely any game.
I was on the edge of my seat waiting for the next point blank shot that Halak would block and the next standing O. That was just a freak performance. Every night against the Caps was like 40-50 shots and people want us to believe JM is a genius?

Of course it was entertaining. Our beloved Habs were winning. But it was obvious that success would not last. Much like the Yotes in the playoffs this year.

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05-23-2012, 04:27 PM
  #121
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I'm not so sure I understand Spacek's comments regarding Cunneyworth. Spacek was traded before the coaching change. It seems to me to be speculation on his part (quite possibly true).

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05-23-2012, 04:28 PM
  #122
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Somewhat. End of gainey era wasn't as calm and patient as his other years.



Nashville, Phoenix and others don't spend to cap. If we REALLY wanna say 7.3 away from the cap crippled us then dunno what to say. Gomez could've been put in minors or anything really. The habs spend one of the most in the league, and if ottawa, nashville, etc... can make the playoffs and be competitive, there's no real 'cap suffocation' here.

Gauthier was just bad. Gainey was significantly better but when comparing to Gauthier, it isn't saying much. Gainey's tenure is pretty much 'average to above average' if you include his Gomez mistake. It wasn't excellent. Gauthier's? Very unimpressive. No leadership, nothing. Prob a great assistant GM but terrible GM.
I'd say trading for Gomez at the expense of McDonagh, trading Latendresse(though he's been hurt) for a floater like Pouliot and overspending on guys like Cammalleri and Spacek instaed of developing a guy like O'byrne. Swapping McDonagh for Gomez alone might have made us a playoff team.

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05-23-2012, 04:29 PM
  #123
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I was on the edge of my seat waiting for the next point blank shot that Halak would block and the next standing O. That was just a freak performance. Every night against the Caps was like 40-50 shots and people want us to believe JM is a genius?

Of course it was entertaining. Our beloved Habs were winning. But it was obvious that success would not last. Much like the Yotes in the playoffs this year.
You are exaggerating greatly how much we were "dominated". While we allowed a lot of shots, we cut down on scoring chances.

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05-23-2012, 04:33 PM
  #124
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I was on the edge of my seat waiting for the next point blank shot that Halak would block and the next standing O. That was just a freak performance. Every night against the Caps was like 40-50 shots and people want us to believe JM is a genius?

Of course it was entertaining. Our beloved Habs were winning. But it was obvious that success would not last. Much like the Yotes in the playoffs this year.
Name one person that want you to think Martin was a genius during that run. Just one poster, find ONE.

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05-23-2012, 04:38 PM
  #125
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I'd say trading for Gomez at the expense of McDonagh, trading Latendresse(though he's been hurt) for a floater like Pouliot and overspending on guys like Cammalleri and Spacek instaed of developing a guy like O'byrne.
Half and half. Keeping McDonagh would've been smart, though I daresay he wouldn't be as highly regarded if the Habs hadn't traded him away (where would he slot in the Habs' depth chart, #3?). Lats for Pouliot was stupid, but Cammy and Spacek were fine players who did well in Montreal and O'Byrne would have been sixth on the Habs' depth chart, if that.

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Swapping McDonagh for Gomez alone might have made us a playoff team.
Not panicking would have made the Habs a playoff team. If Gauthier goes ******* like he did, plugging McDonagh in on the depth chart certainly doesn't save the season.

The early 2011-2012 Habs were a good team in a bad stretch. That's what I'll never forgive Gauthier, for taking apart what looked like an extremely promising season under the surface.

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