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FINAL: Where does Nash end up?

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Old
05-23-2012, 03:39 PM
  #326
hockeyball
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
That comparison makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't need to go much further than the fact that Brian Campbell is 11 years older than Alex Pietrangelo. Campbell has already peaked and will begin declining, Pietrangelo may have peaked but there's a 98% chance that he hasn't.

Joe Pavelski is less than one month younger than Rick Nash. We're not talking about two guys who are on dramatically different parts of the development curve here, we're talking at being right around the same spot.



Sure, let me pop in the tape of Rick Nash playing for San Jose first.

Oh, I don't have any. How about you?
I was simply comparing ELC vs non-ELC, that's all. The age thing, while accurate, didn't have anything to do with that particular argument. Point just being that an ELC contract does not somehow reduce value, if anything it improves value in a trade situation.

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05-23-2012, 03:40 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Spice Trader View Post
Hold the phone there.. Ovie is NOT that much better than Nash IMO. If nash broke into the league with a center like Backstrom and a PP qb like Green im sure his first couple years would look better.

To compare Pavelski to nash is retarded based on one simple fact. Pavelski plays sheltered offensive minutes BEHIND thorton and marleu ( i hate marleu but thats a personal thing cant argue his regular season numbers) So pavelski goes agasint 3/4 5/6 Dmen 75 % of the time. Most teams have 2 good defenders and a shut down line. Is pavelski a good player on a real nice contract yup 100 %. He is nowhere near the talent that nash is.

The problem is when you trade a talent like nash you wont ever get his value back. Its an old saying the team getting the best player wins 90 % of trades. Well nobody is moving anyone in even the same class as nash for him. So CBJ have to either fill glaring voids in there lineup or hope the couple blue chippers they get hit a higher ceiling that most think they will.

Nobody is going to give up a = player that is younger and cheaper for nash... why would they?
Come on, Ovie's numbers and accomplishments dwarf Nash's.

That's the thing about Nash, always given the benefit of the doubt. You have no idea how he'd play with better linemates.

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05-23-2012, 03:44 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Come on, Ovie's numbers and accomplishments dwarf Nash's.

That's the thing about Nash, always given the benefit of the doubt. You have no idea how he'd play with better linemates.
How is thinking that he would be more productive with the likes of Thornton and Boyle than the likes of Umberger and Tyutin giving him the benefit of the doubt?

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05-23-2012, 03:45 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
That comparison makes absolutely no sense. It doesn't need to go much further than the fact that Brian Campbell is 11 years older than Alex Pietrangelo. Campbell has already peaked and will begin declining, Pietrangelo may have peaked but there's a 98% chance that he hasn't.

Joe Pavelski is less than one month younger than Rick Nash. We're not talking about two guys who are on dramatically different parts of the development curve here, we're talking at being right around the same spot.



Sure, let me pop in the tape of Rick Nash playing for San Jose first.

Oh, I don't have any. How about you?
Mayor Bee, apparently it's a bad thing that Nash broke into the league earlier than Pavelski and as a result signed his UFA deal earlier than Pavelski.


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05-23-2012, 03:46 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Confound View Post
Krejci, Peverley, Thomas AND a first for Nash?

Wow, holy over payment.

Krejci and a first is fair enough, add in Peverley and Thomas also? I don't even want Nash and that cap hit anyway, CBJ can keep Nash and his 7.8 mill cap hit. The guy struggles to hit 70 points year in and year out, he had one good year and other than that he has been average.
The guy has a bigger cap hit than Stamkos and is right up there with Sid and Geno, no way he is worth anywhere near that type of money.
I understand where you're coming from, but if you're not a Bruins fan, this trade doesn't look bad on paper. Maybe just make the 1st conditional, or a minor tweak like that, but Peverly is a tweener forward, solid depth at most. Krejci is a good 1B/2 centre (can be a first liner until #19 is ready to handle the load) and Thomas is awesome but is getting nearer to retirement really fast.

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05-23-2012, 03:50 PM
  #331
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Ovie is what he is and some love him some dont. I think he is a top 10 player in the nhl not the top 2 or 3 people usualy peg him at. Its about how you like to build your team.

For me id take toews over ovie 10 times outa 10. I like his game better. most people might disagree and thats fine.

Its not about stats its about WINNING. Imo ovie is not a winner.. Washington is a contender and he has lead them absolutly nowhere. Russia was a stacked team at the olimpics how far did ovie lead them. Imo hes the third best russian possibly 4th. id take malkin and datsyuk for sure over him and possibly kovie.

The only time i have seen nash play with talent his game has elevated to another gear. I think in the right circumstance (deep contending team) you will see another gear from him.

This pavelski being better is just ludacris and im done with that aspect of this thread.

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05-23-2012, 03:51 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Megan Foxs Thumbs View Post
I understand where you're coming from, but if you're not a Bruins fan, this trade doesn't look bad on paper. Maybe just make the 1st conditional, or a minor tweak like that, but Peverly is a tweener forward, solid depth at most. Krejci is a good 1B/2 centre (can be a first liner until #19 is ready to handle the load) and Thomas is awesome but is getting nearer to retirement really fast.
That's an awful trade for the Jackets. Awful.

They need someone with serious upside, not someone who is a number 2 center, someone who is a borderline 2nd liner and someone who is a goalie 2 years away from 40.

Peverley is 30 years old. 30!!!!

Krejci is 26.

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05-23-2012, 03:52 PM
  #333
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here si the deal ok.

anyone, i will say again, anyone who uses the arguement that player X is better than nash based on salary is an idiot and solely out to use poor judgement to back up their flawed conclusion.

is brent burns worth his salary? are all dmen who had more points then burns this year or last year who do so with a smaller cap hit automatically better then burns?

what about marleau, havlat, thronton, boyle?

where do you draw the line for this way of thinking and who si the one that gets to make that decision?

if a leaf fans say he would rather lupul plus the cap space over thronton an idiot or clueless?

pavelski i am sorry isnt even in the same discussion as nash, he isnt even close regardless of salary.

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05-23-2012, 04:02 PM
  #334
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I'd like Columbus to trade a package containing the 2nd overall + for Edmonton's 1st overall, using it to draft Yakupov.

Then, if Galchenyuk is still on the table at #4 the Jackets trade Nash to Toronto for a package including the #4. They use that pick to draft Galchenyuk.

Overnight the face of Columbus goes from being Nash to some mixture of Johnson/Yakupov & Galchenyuk.

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05-23-2012, 04:03 PM
  #335
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To the Jackets fans here....are you resigned to the fate of Nash leaving? Don't want him back? Don't care what happens as long as something happens and soon?

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05-23-2012, 04:09 PM
  #336
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Want him to stay if the return isn't good enough, but if we can make over the team just by trading him I'm all for it. Joe Pavelski as a center piece of a deal means I want to keep Nash 100%. I'm looking for a makeover in the mix of Krecji and Rask or something comparable. Pavelski I don't think is a guy that will come to Columbus and thrive.

I think I can speak for 95% of Jacket fans when I say we don't want him to go, but if it improves the team then it needs to be done.

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05-23-2012, 04:12 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
here si the deal ok.

anyone, i will say again, anyone who uses the arguement that player X is better than nash based on salary is an idiot and solely out to use poor judgement to back up their flawed conclusion.

is brent burns worth his salary? are all dmen who had more points then burns this year or last year who do so with a smaller cap hit automatically better then burns?

what about marleau, havlat, thronton, boyle?

where do you draw the line for this way of thinking and who si the one that gets to make that decision?

if a leaf fans say he would rather lupul plus the cap space over thronton an idiot or clueless?

pavelski i am sorry isnt even in the same discussion as nash, he isnt even close regardless of salary.
Justify that with numbers. No "I just know" or "I watch the play" I want results. Results are what matter, and Pavelski and Nash are providing similar results.

I've said over and over that Nash is more talented, I'm not debating that, but Semin is incredibly talented too, but his results don't match his talent.

Quote:
anyone, i will say again, anyone who uses the arguement that player X is better than nash based on salary is an idiot and solely out to use poor judgement to back up their flawed conclusion.
I have NEVER claimed this. I said Pavelski is, at worst, a better VALUE than Nash. Bang for the buck. I personally believe Pavelski is a better player as well, but those are different points.

The goal posts are shifting all over the place, but this is the brunt of the argument:

Should the Sharks be comfortable trading Pavelski (or +) for Rick Nash even though they have produced similar results for the last few seasons and Pavelski is on a much cheaper contract?

I say absolutely no. Honestly, I'd barely take Rick Nash for free because of his contract. $7.8m is just WAY too much. He'd be the highest paid player on the Sharks by quite a bit and not the best player on the team (Thornton and Marleau are both clearly better). So would I give up Pavelski for Nash? No, it makes the Sharks worse, gives us less flexibility, and Pavelski + another $3.8m player (which we can now afford) is far more valuable than another super-star.

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05-23-2012, 04:14 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
To the Jackets fans here....are you resigned to the fate of Nash leaving? Don't want him back? Don't care what happens as long as something happens and soon?
Want him to stay because I really love him as a player and what he means to the franchise.

However, I understand his desire to leave (honestly he's doing it the classiest way possible) so I don't harbor any resentment against him (only against management).

That said, if he DOES leave I want us to get a package either like what I proposed above
OR
A group of NHL players capable of making up Nash's production right now (65-75 pts) with one player having a decent chance of becoming as good as or better than Nash in the future. This is where you get names like Couture, Kreider, etc.

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05-23-2012, 04:33 PM
  #339
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Want him to stay because I really love him as a player and what he means to the franchise.
Do you think his relationship is so tarnished that he can't possibly come back?

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05-23-2012, 04:44 PM
  #340
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The only way i think CBJ gets a player that could be as good as nash is if they move up for #1 overall and he pans out to the same level.

Nobody is moving a #1 overall superstar to get a highly paid #1 overall superstar.. why would you?

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05-23-2012, 04:46 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Justify that with numbers. No "I just know" or "I watch the play" I want results. Results are what matter, and Pavelski and Nash are providing similar results.

I've said over and over that Nash is more talented, I'm not debating that, but Semin is incredibly talented too, but his results don't match his talent.



I have NEVER claimed this. I said Pavelski is, at worst, a better VALUE than Nash. Bang for the buck. I personally believe Pavelski is a better player as well, but those are different points.

The goal posts are shifting all over the place, but this is the brunt of the argument:

Should the Sharks be comfortable trading Pavelski (or +) for Rick Nash even though they have produced similar results for the last few seasons and Pavelski is on a much cheaper contract?

I say absolutely no. Honestly, I'd barely take Rick Nash for free because of his contract. $7.8m is just WAY too much. He'd be the highest paid player on the Sharks by quite a bit and not the best player on the team (Thornton and Marleau are both clearly better). So would I give up Pavelski for Nash? No, it makes the Sharks worse, gives us less flexibility, and Pavelski + another $3.8m player (which we can now afford) is far more valuable than another super-star.
How many Cups have they won in the last few seasons? Way to stay status quo. Sometimes you have to pay better players to get you there. Marleau is less talented than Nash, no doubt. If you want to argue stats, look at the team Nash plays on and who he plays with.

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05-23-2012, 04:48 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
So wait... Let me get this straight...

- Pavelski benefits from playing with Thornton and is why he has so many points

- Pavelski doesn't see top competition because he doesn't play with Thornton...?

Either he plays with Thornton or he doesn't. You can't have it both ways. If he plays with JT he does so on the 1st line, if he doesn't then he's not benefiting from JT's playmaking. It' can't be both.


-
Sorry to jump in here but I liked how you twisted the post you quoted.... He/She did not say Pavelski "Plays with" Thornton. He said Thornton played against top pairing d-men therefore minimizing the time Pavelski played against them (indicating separate lines but obviously playing on the same team - ie. plays with). You absolutely can have it both ways. It was never mentioned that Pavs was the benficiary (at least in the post you quoted) of Thornton's playmaking.

Just wanted that to be clear. Maybe I missed something along the way for which I apologize but this was clearly a twisted post.

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05-23-2012, 04:51 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
That's the thing about Nash, always given the benefit of the doubt. You have no idea how he'd play with better linemates.
Truer words never spoken. We're probably going to find out of the next 2-3 years. That can be the defining moments of where Nash really falls. I'm a big Nash fan but recognize he isn't without faults. Enough has been hashed through 10 Nash threads. Let's see what happens.

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05-23-2012, 05:07 PM
  #344
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Pavelski is definately the better value when contract and production are compared, but I think people are fooling themselves with statistics if they think that Pavelski is in the same class of player as Rick Nash.

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05-23-2012, 05:12 PM
  #345
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Why does everyone keep saying krejci is a 2nd line center?

He had an off year but still finished 19th in center scoring. That makes him an average 1st line center this year.

He finished 22nd the year before. Not to mention he led the bruins in playoff scoring on the way to the cup...

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05-23-2012, 05:30 PM
  #346
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Justify that with numbers. No "I just know" or "I watch the play" I want results. Results are what matter, and Pavelski and Nash are providing similar results.

I've said over and over that Nash is more talented, I'm not debating that, but Semin is incredibly talented too, but his results don't match his talent.



I have NEVER claimed this. I said Pavelski is, at worst, a better VALUE than Nash. Bang for the buck. I personally believe Pavelski is a better player as well, but those are different points.

The goal posts are shifting all over the place, but this is the brunt of the argument:

Should the Sharks be comfortable trading Pavelski (or +) for Rick Nash even though they have produced similar results for the last few seasons and Pavelski is on a much cheaper contract?

I say absolutely no. Honestly, I'd barely take Rick Nash for free because of his contract. $7.8m is just WAY too much. He'd be the highest paid player on the Sharks by quite a bit and not the best player on the team (Thornton and Marleau are both clearly better). So would I give up Pavelski for Nash? No, it makes the Sharks worse, gives us less flexibility, and Pavelski + another $3.8m player (which we can now afford) is far more valuable than another super-star.
Im gonna lay down in my bed, and cry, cry away the pain thats this thread is causing me. Why cant we leave this NashvsPavelski stuff, its not leading anywhere. The arguments is getting ridiculous, Nash has better stats in this but Pavelski has better stats in that, Pavelskis salary makes up for the difference in skill, Nash is/aint a superstar, Pavelski plays sheltered minutes, Pavelski plays against top lines, Nash has crap teammates, Pavelski has a team of Crosbys around him.
(not directed directly at you hockeyball, more directed at this majority of this thread)

Lets just drop this and talk about the other 28clubs Nash might end up in, the other 28clubs where neither Nash or Pavelski plays, please.

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05-23-2012, 06:19 PM
  #347
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Sorry to jump in here but I liked how you twisted the post you quoted.... He/She did not say Pavelski "Plays with" Thornton. He said Thornton played against top pairing d-men therefore minimizing the time Pavelski played against them (indicating separate lines but obviously playing on the same team - ie. plays with). You absolutely can have it both ways. It was never mentioned that Pavs was the benficiary (at least in the post you quoted) of Thornton's playmaking.

Just wanted that to be clear. Maybe I missed something along the way for which I apologize but this was clearly a twisted post.
I already answered that. Joe Pavelski has the highest qualcomp scores on the team. He seems top competition every night. Higher than Thornton. You can't have a higher qualcomp than Thornton, benefit from being sheltered by Thornton AND benefit from playing with Thornton (which are all things that have been claimed throughout this).

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Originally Posted by BeersHockey View Post
How many Cups have they won in the last few seasons? Way to stay status quo. Sometimes you have to pay better players to get you there. Marleau is less talented than Nash, no doubt. If you want to argue stats, look at the team Nash plays on and who he plays with.
How many cups has Nash won? How many did we win after we added Campbell, Blake, Heatley, Boyle, Burns, Niemi...

A move for a moves sake is foolish. Sharks lost this season because of absolutely pathetic coaching for instance, so it's very tough to get any kind of read on this team. I don't see Nash (or anyone) changing that. Sharks need to fix their system first.

Quote:
Pavelski is definately the better value when contract and production are compared, but I think people are fooling themselves with statistics if they think that Pavelski is in the same class of player as Rick Nash.
And as I've said before, agree with me or don't on who's the better player, but it's pretty damn tough to argue Nash is a better value. This entire conversation started because I was mocked when I said trading Pavelski for Nash was stupid for the Sharks. That, in the end, is all this is about.

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Originally Posted by DisneyDucky View Post
Im gonna lay down in my bed, and cry, cry away the pain thats this thread is causing me. Why cant we leave this NashvsPavelski stuff, its not leading anywhere. The arguments is getting ridiculous, Nash has better stats in this but Pavelski has better stats in that, Pavelskis salary makes up for the difference in skill, Nash is/aint a superstar, Pavelski plays sheltered minutes, Pavelski plays against top lines, Nash has crap teammates, Pavelski has a team of Crosbys around him.
(not directed directly at you hockeyball, more directed at this majority of this thread)

Lets just drop this and talk about the other 28clubs Nash might end up in, the other 28clubs where neither Nash or Pavelski plays, please.
Again, this just started because I was ridiculed for saying that Pavelski for Nash is a bumb deal for for the Sharks. The conversations has shifted all over the map, but I still have not seen one argument that makes me say "Hmm, yah maybe the Sharks would be better off with Nash instead of Pavelski". What I see is a bunch of people trying to hype Nash up as a better player than his statistics show and his salary is commiserate with. I like Nash, and I'd be ok with him on the Sharks (and I've proposed a deal centered around Clowe, Niemi, picks, etc) but just not for Pavelski.

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05-23-2012, 06:28 PM
  #348
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Again, this just started because I was ridiculed for saying that Pavelski for Nash is a bumb deal for for the Sharks. The conversations has shifted all over the map, but I still have not seen one argument that makes me say "Hmm, yah maybe the Sharks would be better off with Nash instead of Pavelski". What I see is a bunch of people trying to hype Nash up as a better player than his statistics show and his salary is commiserate with. I like Nash, and I'd be ok with him on the Sharks (and I've proposed a deal centered around Clowe, Niemi, picks, etc) but just not for Pavelski.
Then quit trying to get the last word in and let it die. Be the bigger person.

As for where he winds up, I think NY or Phili make the most sense in terms of young quality assets the BJs would be looking for. If he is playing in the Western Conference, I think it means that he hasn't been traded.

The offer has to be very strong in terms of assets. Other then that, Nash continued to play hard for the Jackets after the deadline - showing me that he isn't the kind of player to force a trade through play.

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05-23-2012, 06:59 PM
  #349
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I got an ideal.The two most overrated Players/picks that have been in discussions on this board the most lately is Nash and Nail/EDM's 1st.
So we have it EDM trades the 1st overall for Nash.
The Jackets can than draft Nail and Gal and Edm gets their proven player.
EDM happy-Jackets happy and the rest of the board happy as we don't have to hear about Nash or Nail again for awhile.

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05-23-2012, 07:03 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by topdog View Post
I got an ideal.The two most overrated Players/picks that have been in discussions on this board the most lately is Nash and Nail/EDM's 1st.
So we have it EDM trades the 1st overall for Nash.
The Jackets can than draft Nail and Gal and Edm gets their proven player.
EDM happy-Jackets happy and the rest of the board happy as we don't have to hear about Nash or Nail again for awhile.
There's no way Nash is as overrated lately around here as Pavelski is.

No.

Way.

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