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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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05-23-2012, 05:38 PM
  #126
MathMan
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
You are exaggerating greatly how much we were "dominated". While we allowed a lot of shots, we cut down on scoring chances.
They really didn't.

But basically holding up the 2009-2010 playoffs as the best Martin did for the Habs is wrongheaded. His 2010-2011 team was vastly superior to that.

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05-23-2012, 05:40 PM
  #127
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I'm not so sure I understand Spacek's comments regarding Cunneyworth. Spacek was traded before the coaching change. It seems to me to be speculation on his part (quite possibly true).
It was clear, from the moment Cunney gave his first press conference that not much would change, he have a phylosophy very close of JM.

I think Spacek love Cunneyworth and wanted to defend him so he blamed someone he does'nt like for his poor record. I agree with him that Cunney is a good coach that was in a bad situation, but to claim tgat gauthier was controlling the coaching just does'nt sound right to me.

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05-23-2012, 05:45 PM
  #128
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Half and half. Keeping McDonagh would've been smart, though I daresay he wouldn't be as highly regarded if the Habs hadn't traded him away (where would he slot in the Habs' depth chart, #3?). Lats for Pouliot was stupid, but Cammy and Spacek were fine players who did well in Montreal and O'Byrne would have been sixth on the Habs' depth chart, if that.



Not panicking would have made the Habs a playoff team. If Gauthier goes ******* like he did, plugging McDonagh in on the depth chart certainly doesn't save the season.

The early 2011-2012 Habs were a good team in a bad stretch. That's what I'll never forgive Gauthier, for taking apart what looked like an extremely promising season under the surface.
Write a book on optimism, there's got to be money in it for you. I'll buy it. Only question is would the book go on the self-help shelf or the fiction.

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05-23-2012, 05:50 PM
  #129
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Write a book on optimism, there's got to be money in it for you. I'll buy it. Only question is would the book go on the self-help shelf or the fiction.
They were great at evens, great on the PK, and were getting their chances on the PP but not converting. They kept losing games they'd dominate.

They were playing better than they had in over a decade but not getting rewarded for it. It happens. Hockey is unfair.

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05-23-2012, 06:17 PM
  #130
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It's ironc that Spacek said in the interview that low-scoring defensive games weren't fun and that winning 6-4 was. Sure, winning 6-4 can be fun but it can also indicate a sloppy game with many defensive mistakes that can be overlooked because of the win. I would imagine thst Spacek wouldn't consider a 6-4 loss to be fun.

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05-23-2012, 06:21 PM
  #131
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They were great at evens, great on the PK, and were getting their chances on the PP but not converting. They kept losing games they'd dominate.

They were playing better than they had in over a decade but not getting rewarded for it. It happens. Hockey is unfair.
Right on all counts but there are a few factors that are unquantifiable but totally real:

1. Motivation
2. Communication
3. Luck

Hockey is a dynamic sport, not as dynamic as Soccer but almost. There's only so much a coach can do tactically - for instance, almost every team in the league plays a trap at some point in each game - but getting the players to show up every game, to compete and to use their talents to the best of their abilities is the real job of a coach.

Players are as talented as ever and I'd even argue that if you separate physical talents from the mental factor almost every team in the league has the same roster give or take; it's getting the squad to be fit, to be healthy, to be driven and hungry, to be patient, and so on, that is the real challenge.

Sure the 5 on 5 was great and we were solid on the PK. Sure there were chances being generated on the PP but the fact was that the team was not scoring as much as they could have or should have and the players were unhappy. Gauthier is to blame for it, I'll admit it, but sacking Martin was the only option at the time, he had sucked the lifeforce out of the team.

I remember going to a game in November, we played the trashiest hockey imaginable. Losing 0-1 to the Bruins at home. There was no forecheck, no attempt to dominate the game, nothing.

There are far too many instances under JM where the team just did look like they were enjoying themselves or that they felt comfortable playing.

I'd love for a motivational-type, someone who is FAMOUS for being a communicator, for telling his players what he expects of them and what he wants them to do and how he expects them to do it.*

*My fanboyism wants to hope that Carbo evolved and will instill that kind of drive in the team but to be honest I'm not so sure. I just want a team who will hold itself accountable, like the STL or the NYR lockerroom. Spacek wouldn't fit in either team if you ask me.

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Old
05-23-2012, 06:27 PM
  #132
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That was an excellent interview, title of this thread should be changed though

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05-23-2012, 06:40 PM
  #133
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I am sure that if Martin is considered a vastly superior coach, then one of the teams with a coaching vacancy will be sure to hire him. There are openings so it is definitely a possibility.

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05-23-2012, 06:46 PM
  #134
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I'd say trading for Gomez at the expense of McDonagh, trading Latendresse(though he's been hurt) for a floater like Pouliot and overspending on guys like Cammalleri and Spacek instaed of developing a guy like O'byrne. Swapping McDonagh for Gomez alone might have made us a playoff team.
That's why I described it as average.

BTW, O'byrne, both kostitsyns, d'agostini, etc... were all on Gauthier's watch.

While we look at moves like acquiring Gomez as obviously detrimental to icing an optimal product on the ice. How can you say Gauthier was 'handcuffed' when he himself acquired kaberle which is more of the same?

As a matter of fact. Gionta, Cammalleri and the other deals had the same thing in mind, good player, slightly overpaid and an extra year. While I give credit for the Cole signing, do you not feel it was slightly overpaid at the time and with an extra year? Cole follows the same model as gionta and the rest. Same slightly overpaid contract and all with that glorious NTC. If Gauthier's best moves look like Gainey's worse, then that says it all.

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05-23-2012, 06:50 PM
  #135
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I am sure that if Martin is considered a vastly superior coach, then one of the teams with a coaching vacancy will be sure to hire him. There are openings so it is definitely a possibility.
Well, it would likely take him significantly less time than the group of candidates were dealing with now.

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05-23-2012, 06:56 PM
  #136
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That's why I described it as average.

BTW, O'byrne, both kostitsyns, d'agostini, etc... were all on Gauthier's watch.

While we look at moves like acquiring Gomez as obviously detrimental to icing an optimal product on the ice. How can you say Gauthier was 'handcuffed' when he himself acquired kaberle which is more of the same?

As a matter of fact. Gionta, Cammalleri and the other deals had the same thing in mind, good player, slightly overpaid and an extra year. While I give credit for the Cole signing, do you not feel it was slightly overpaid at the time and with an extra year? Cole follows the same model as gionta and the rest. Same slightly overpaid contract and all with that glorious NTC. If Gauthier's best moves look like Gainey's worse, then that says it all.
How can you compare Kaberle to Gomez? What a joke.

First Gomez cost Higgins plus one of our best prospects in McDonagh. Adding Kaberle allowed us to dump Spacek's bloated contract.

Second, it's far from a stretch to think Kaberle will play up to or even surpass his 4.2 mil cap hit. Other than the 1st half of last year on a cup Hangover, he's played at that level or above. Gomez even in his berst years with NYR was nowhere remotely close to a 7.35 mil hockey player. Find me another 10 goal center making 7+ mil somewhere in the NHL. On the other hand for Kaberle you have Wisniewski making 5.5 mil for the next 5 years in Columbus, Liles making around the same(as Kaberle) in Toronto, there are may good comparables. 30-40+ point d-men making 4+ mil are not hard to find

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05-23-2012, 06:58 PM
  #137
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As far as this goes, myself and I think a few other people who liked the Martin/Gauthier era would point to the period of the 2010-11 season plus the first 20 games of 2011-12 as the best overall Habs team since the dark ages. This was a team that was strong on both special teams, had solid goal-tending and controlled the puck 5 on 5 like a competitive team.

Those who liked that generally think that Gauthier was a complete disaster after his last really good move of signing Erik Cole. After which there was a process of burning up his goodwill, largely based on his panicked blunderings after the team's slow start. Up to that point management blunders could be forgiven on the basis of good overall process and results but they can't when the team started going backwards like it did.

As for Martin, the gap between his defenders and detractors is pretty much unreconcilable at this point because both camps are largely looking at different things and using completely different metrics. As far as I'm concerned he had the team moving in the right direction as far as overall team game goes and his influence was shown by the utter collapse in team play under his replacement. What his players thought about him during that time isn't apt to change my mind because it was never a particularly important thing for me in the first place.
I could live with this assessment, I thought PG was doing a decent job up until he went into the season with Diaz, Weber, Yemelin, then firing Pearn, trading for Kaberle, then firing JM without giving him much of chance with the newly acquired Kaberle (terrible move, picking him up BTW), but still the coach should of had an opportunity to use his newly acquired asset. Then Bourque for Cammy mid game.

This season was disastrous from the beginning. You give him credit for signing Cole, which in isolation was a good signing, at least for the first year, will see for this year and beyond, but that signing may have contributed to him entering the season with Diaz, Weber, Yemelin all with no Markov, this screamed of trouble from the onset. I don't blame it on injuries, so much as piss poor planning, although the injuries played a roll too.

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05-23-2012, 07:00 PM
  #138
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They were great at evens, great on the PK, and were getting their chances on the PP but not converting. They kept losing games they'd dominate.

They were playing better than they had in over a decade but not getting rewarded for it. It happens. Hockey is unfair.
Looking at the team on paper prior to the season beginning it was easy to see the D was in trouble.

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05-23-2012, 07:06 PM
  #139
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Looking at the team on paper prior to the season beginning it was easy to see the D was in trouble.
And there still is.

Some people try to convince others on here that Emelin is a sure-fire Top-4 Dman, and that Markov can return close to where he was. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Right now Emelin is a solid bottom pairing guy with a physical dimension, with the potential to be a solid second pairing D if he continues to improve. Markov, he was starting to come around but he wasnt back to full force yet and there is still durability concerns.

I still say without sweeping changes this off season, we miss the playoffs again.

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05-23-2012, 07:11 PM
  #140
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How can you compare Kaberle to Gomez? What a joke.

First Gomez cost Higgins plus one of our best prospects in McDonagh. Adding Kaberle allowed us to dump Spacek's bloated contract.

Second, it's far from a stretch to think Kaberle will play up to or even surpass his 4.2 mil cap hit. Other than the 1st half of last year on a cup Hangover, he's played at that level or above. Gomez even in his berst years with NYR was nowhere remotely close to a 7.35 mil hockey player. Find me another 10 goal center making 7+ mil somewhere in the NHL. On the other hand for Kaberle you have Wisniewski making 5.5 mil for the next 5 years in Columbus, Liles making around the same(as Kaberle) in Toronto, there are may good comparables. 30-40+ point d-men making 4+ mil are not hard to find
Obviously, Gomez contract was significantly worse.

How is Spacek with 3.8 left on a 1 year deal worse than kaberle with 3 years left? The point was, it was unnecessary. We needed a strong two-way presence, not a PP specialist with average 5 on 5 defensive skill.

You assume I dislike kaberle. I don't. At least with Gomez trade you can argue we needed a top line center(who they assumed would bounce back. *cough* director of pro scouting Pierre Gauthier *cough*). In the case of kaberle, we needed a PMD for another 3 years? Why? Let me guess, because Markov was injured, we needed kaberle. Sure I guess. Except we should've addressed the issue earlier. Gauthier went into the season with a hole and regardless of the contract status, we're gonna defend him for patching a hole he didn't address earlier? Look, I get it, he couldn't have predicted Markov would be out that long but at same time, that was a pretty bad patch job as we don't need kaberle for 3 years. We have 1 shutdown d-man, 1 physical d-man and 1 all around d-man and 4 PMD. 4!!! Markov, Kaberle, Diaz and Weber. WTF for?

I get it, kaberle might be better next year and he'll be worth his contract, but doesn't change the fact he's playing bottom pairing for us and we needed a two-way guy more than him. We still do.

Does this mean Gomez trade was okay? Nah, it was terrible. I just like how Gionta's overpaid but Cole signing is excellent. In Gionta's first year he made 28 goals...in 61 GP. You know that makes 28 in 82 GP. Cole had 35. They had same PPG. Granted, Cole is bigger, stronger and a welcome addition, but both are overpaid and have too long on their contract. So again, if we say Gauthier's best move is Cole, then one of Gainey's 'worse' moves in Gionta/Cammalleri mustn't be so bad either?

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05-23-2012, 07:15 PM
  #141
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I could live with this assessment, I thought PG was doing a decent job up until he went into the season with Diaz, Weber, Yemelin, then firing Pearn, trading for Kaberle, then firing JM without giving him much of chance with the newly acquired Kaberle (terrible move, picking him up BTW), but still the coach should of had an opportunity to use his newly acquired asset. Then Bourque for Cammy mid game.

This season was disastrous from the beginning. You give him credit for signing Cole, which in isolation was a good signing, at least for the first year, will see for this year and beyond, but that signing may have contributed to him entering the season with Diaz, Weber, Yemelin all with no Markov, this screamed of trouble from the onset. I don't blame it on injuries, so much as piss poor planning, although the injuries played a roll too.
They had money to keep the defense from being a disaster and its not like there was a plethora of free agency candidates that would have helped. The issue with the defense wasn't so much the squad on paper as the belief that Markov was going to be back for the whole season. Which seemed reasonable at the time although we don't really know what kind of information they had on his condition during the off-season so it might of been an avoidable screw up or it could have been just bad luck of the extreme worst case scenario happening at a bad time.

During the off-season though I would have been far more comfortable if at least one of Hamrlik or Wisniewski was retained for Markov insurance, at the cost of losing Gill and potentially dumping Spacek's final year though. They were betting heavily on having both Subban and Markov on the squad to carry two pairings. Gill's leadership wasn't worth the massive gap in effectiveness between him and Hamrlik for example.

In any case, I doubt any defensemen available for 4.5 million would have helped as much as Cole did even if they did fill a need. The early season squad showed they could cover for a weak 2nd pairing 5 on 5 so long as they had enough forward depth to run 3 strong forward lines, adding Cole was instrumental to that. After game 20 they showed that they couldn't afford to be injured both on defense and forward simultaneously, which is difficult for any team.

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05-23-2012, 07:27 PM
  #142
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Spacek's comments shed light on that last 2 years. In a way I am glad we crapped the bed. We get a high end pick AND lose JM and Gauthier.

Our new management team looks good so far. But I'll wait until July 15th to decide if I feel they are a good one. But I am hopeful


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And there still is.

Some people try to convince others on here that Emelin is a sure-fire Top-4 Dman, and that Markov can return close to where he was. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Right now Emelin is a solid bottom pairing guy with a physical dimension, with the potential to be a solid second pairing D if he continues to improve. Markov, he was starting to come around but he wasnt back to full force yet and there is still durability concerns.

I still say without sweeping changes this off season, we miss the playoffs again.
This. I really feel like we need to keep Emelin on a 3rd pair if we can. If we can sign a solid Dman. A veteran (28 -32 yo) physical dman capable of top 4 minutes we'll see a much better season. My personal wet-dream would be somehow signing Suter ( I know, I know....a fan can dream right)

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05-23-2012, 07:32 PM
  #143
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Spacek's comments shed light on that last 2 years. In a way I am glad we crapped the bed. We get a high end pick AND lose JM and Gauthier.

Our new management team looks good so far. But I'll wait until July 15th to decide if I feel they are a good one. But I am hopeful
So true. Too bad we also lost guys like Boucher and Muller in the process, though.

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05-23-2012, 07:38 PM
  #144
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You missed this part?
well, it was the coach's system that they were playing. It wasn't as if they all said screw JM, lets play all out the way we want. They played the style that he wanted, begrudgingly or not, they played it and they were successful. A garbage coach doesn't last 1200 games in the NHL. This is why athletes should not do interviews.

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05-23-2012, 07:45 PM
  #145
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Looking at the team on paper prior to the season beginning it was easy to see the D was in trouble.
Yup, the Markov obviousness granted, it was pretty much letting Wisniewski walk followed by letting Hammer go in favour of keeping Gill around and then seeing Campoli signed "last minute" did it for me, and essays were definitely written on those subjects, lol. Seeing them go forward with both Diaz and Weber suggested they (well, PG I guess) weren't paying attention, and then effectively replacing Spacek with Kaberle in that remaining group was just cringe-worthy.

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05-23-2012, 07:52 PM
  #146
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I really wanna know which media person he didn't like

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05-23-2012, 07:59 PM
  #147
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well, it was the coach's system that they were playing. It wasn't as if they all said screw JM, lets play all out the way we want. They played the style that he wanted, begrudgingly or not, they played it and they were successful.
Successful? Hmmm... your definition of success must differ from mine.

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05-23-2012, 08:07 PM
  #148
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I really wanna know which media person he didn't like
The one who asked him about his diet probably.

Spacek is unprofessional in so many sense of the word, but since he's a nice guy he gets a pass from nearly everyone.

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05-23-2012, 08:38 PM
  #149
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So it was because the players finally jelled and not because of Halak and only Halak?

Everybody was going after Gomer. So I guess Gomez was pretty good after all?

I didn't know Spacek's words are gold.


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05-23-2012, 09:28 PM
  #150
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If Spacek wanted a player's coach and an offensive system, why didn't he sign with Washington, back then ? I guess he wanted a repeat of the Kovalev era. I'm glad we went a different direction.

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