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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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05-24-2012, 12:50 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
They had money to keep the defense from being a disaster and its not like there was a plethora of free agency candidates that would have helped. The issue with the defense wasn't so much the squad on paper as the belief that Markov was going to be back for the whole season. Which seemed reasonable at the time although we don't really know what kind of information they had on his condition during the off-season so it might of been an avoidable screw up or it could have been just bad luck of the extreme worst case scenario happening at a bad time.

During the off-season though I would have been far more comfortable if at least one of Hamrlik or Wisniewski was retained for Markov insurance, at the cost of losing Gill and potentially dumping Spacek's final year though. They were betting heavily on having both Subban and Markov on the squad to carry two pairings. Gill's leadership wasn't worth the massive gap in effectiveness between him and Hamrlik for example.

In any case, I doubt any defensemen available for 4.5 million would have helped as much as Cole did even if they did fill a need. The early season squad showed they could cover for a weak 2nd pairing 5 on 5 so long as they had enough forward depth to run 3 strong forward lines, adding Cole was instrumental to that. After game 20 they showed that they couldn't afford to be injured both on defense and forward simultaneously, which is difficult for any team.

Fair enough, I still thought a D starting the year with a healthy, hadn't played any substantial minutes in roughly 2 years Markov, along with Diaz, Weber, Yemelin, Gill, then Campoli, question marks on Gorges knee ect was a recipe for disaster, I find it hard to believe anyone who followed hockey for more than 10minutes would be comfortable going into the season with that, never mind a NHL GM.

It will look like a comment made in hindsight, but it really isn't. I felt this way going into the season that the D was truly in deep deep ****, the injuries only made it worse, but we were never in a position to combat injuries on the back end, we barely had a top 6 to begin with.

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05-24-2012, 12:57 PM
  #202
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Gainey is still the GM, the one getting opinions on all the players and making the final decision. He didn't need 4 assistant GM's to know Gomez was NOT worth close to his 7.35 mil cap hit, let alone giving up a 1st rounder for him.

This article sounds like a somebody with a bone to pick with Gauthier trying to blame him for everything. If you look at the big picture, the moves that led to this past season falling off the rails were all Gainey moves...McDonagh-Gomez, Cammalleri, Spacek, Beauchemin, Latendresse all those moves led to lacking depth on defense and too much salary/cap hit for unproductive forwards.
That article mentions how Gainey was not exactly IN charge based on the recent events and let Gauthier do a whole lot of the work. So they say that, who are we know to know exactly what Gainey did or didn't ask Gauthier to do? So yes, Gainey was yet the GM so as much as he wanted to let Gauthier do his thing, you do think that he would have the final word. So how about giving the blame to both? Gauthier was the right hand man of Gainey. Gauthier was the pro-scout, and now reports saying that Gauthier didn't like McDo. What does it take to at least give him a freakin share of the blame? Or does it realy have to be black or white?

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05-24-2012, 12:58 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Fair enough, I still thought a D starting the year with a healthy, hadn't played any substantial minutes in roughly 2 years Markov, along with Diaz, Weber, Yemelin, Gill, then Campoli, question marks on Gorges knee ect was a recipe for disaster, I find it hard to believe anyone who followed hockey for more than 10minutes would be comfortable going into the season with that, never mind a NHL GM.

It will look like a comment made in hindsight, but it really isn't. I felt this way going into the season that the D was truly in deep deep ****, the injuries only made it worse, but we were never in a position to combat injuries on the back end, we barely had a top 6 to begin with.
I'm sure the front office knew there was a risk, but the UFA market wasn't exactly overflowing with guys taht could play top 4 minutes and not cost a huge contract. The fact that Wisniewski got 33 mil shows how little there was available.

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05-24-2012, 01:01 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
That article mentions how Gainey was not exactly IN charge based on the recent events and let Gauthier do a whole lot of the work. So they say that, who are we know to know exactly what Gainey did or didn't ask Gauthier to do? So yes, Gainey was yet the GM so as much as he wanted to let Gauthier do his thing, you do think that he would have the final word. So how about giving the blame to both? Gauthier was the right hand man of Gainey. Gauthier was the pro-scout, and now reports saying that Gauthier didn't like McDo. What does it take to at least give him a freakin share of the blame? Or does it realy have to be black or white?
So give him a share of the blame. Still goes back to mostly Gainey moves taht put us out of the playoffs this year.

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05-24-2012, 01:04 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I'm sure the front office knew there was a risk, but the UFA market wasn't exactly overflowing with guys taht could play top 4 minutes and not cost a huge contract. The fact that Wisniewski got 33 mil shows how little there was available.
I think you give the former front office too much credit. We had Diaz, Weber, Campoli on our roster already when they traded for Kaberle, lol. Apparently they weren't overly concerned with defenders being able to defend.

Spacek was a better fit with our roster makeup at the time, experienced, could play semi tough matchups ect to alleviate some of the growing pains of a rookie D, but then Gauthier in his infinite wisdom decided another D who can't play D was exactly what the DR ordered. Unreal, thank god he is gone, seriously, beyond stupid, going into a season like that where you plan to be competitive was completely irresponsible in my view.

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05-24-2012, 01:05 PM
  #206
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It is a sad and desperate attempt to deflect blame from their hero to anyone else. It gets even worse when they use an article that doesn't name sources and reads like it was written on this very board.
What about the opinion suggesting that they are both to blame for everything. Or are we still going to suggest Assistant GMs+Head Pro scouts have no input on decisions?

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05-24-2012, 01:11 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
Good (and accurate) post!

CHill Seeker, I agree.....the recent demise of the entire organization started with Boivin's presidency.

The success (or lack there of) of most teams can be traced back to ownership. Gillette, although a very decent owner in many respects was obviously in it for the money and the short term.

I'm glad that Molson has made it clear that he wants the Habs to consistently compete at the highest level on a regular basis. And obviously Molson doesn't feel that either Gainey or Gauthier have the ability to get the job done (or he would not have let them go).

I'm amazed at how many people on this board defended Gainey and even defended Gauthier during each of their sorry tenures as Habs GM.

Can only assume it is a reflection of their knowledge (or lack of) regarding the game of hockey!


GO HABS!

Boivin should be credited for his business prowess because he turned the CH into the money-making organization that it's become since Gillette first took over. However, his business acumen did not translate into hockey smarts. He was a very poor judge of good hockey minds.

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05-24-2012, 01:26 PM
  #208
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Its really a catch 22 real, If PG was in charge of the Gomez trade, so he is credit for the signings of Gill, Cammalleri, etc? Does he great credit for Gorges, because Burke said that he called MTL and want Rivet, but MTL took the San Jose offer..

IMO I place most of the credit/blame on the GM, during Gainey time, he did some good, but also some bad, and during PG time as GM, most of his moves as GM are "Meh' moves to me.

I don't think neither of them were as bad as some ppl made them seem, because we did have some good season under those guys, 1st place finish under Gainey, and the 96 point under PG, and also there are some good young piece left that they built Patches,Subban, and Price...
The rivet trade was at the previous deadline. They traded with SJS and not Burke because the deal was already being worked on and Gainey stuck to it. Really nothing to do with PG here. The biggest return was the draft pick. Apart from that, yes, PG should get credit on guys like gill and so on. I think it's only fair. As Gainey's right hand man I believe he had a HUGE impact on those signings. We can say it was Gainey's choice to go that route, but gauthier also constructed the team. If you don't believe me, ask yourself why Gill was retained and others were kept for as long as they did? They fit Gauthier's model as much as Gainey's.

A lot of gainey's moves were excellent. Rivet for pacioretty and rivet? Balej for Kovalev? etc... Still, the Gomez trade was the bad one and for good reason. If really tainted his legacy as a respectable GM for us. Everyone makes mistakes, but that was rough.

Those 3 guys were drafted under Gainey so I give little credit to PG there. More to Timmins obviously. The habs made the playoffs 5 out of 6 years with gainey and along with the 1st place finish. Under Gauthier's 3 years, final 4 once, playoffs another and 3rd last the final year. What's interesting is first year that was essentially at least 90% gainey and at best 10% PG with the acquisition of a guy like Moore. The years after, he didn't improve the team. I saw little upgrade and more of the same. I liked the core, but still, no big center, no upgrade on D. Not much really. We seemed to be doing status quo and while PG did not trade assets away like mcdonagh, the fact he didnt address needs makes him even worse. There was no direction. To clarify, I don't mean you should trade guys like mcdonagh for gomez all the time. Merely suggesting that was once and gainey's other moves to improve the team, worked out for the most part. In terms of Gauthier, he just would do nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
What about the opinion suggesting that they are both to blame for everything. Or are we still going to suggest Assistant GMs+Head Pro scouts have no input on decisions?
Depends who you ask obviously. Some like to twist the reality just as much as defenders of Gainey.

End of the day, they both failed to do the job IMO. However, that being said, if I had to choose 1 to be our GM it's Gainey 11 times out of 10.

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05-24-2012, 01:49 PM
  #209
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I think you give the former front office too much credit. We had Diaz, Weber, Campoli on our roster already when they traded for Kaberle, lol. Apparently they weren't overly concerned with defenders being able to defend.

Spacek was a better fit with our roster makeup at the time, experienced, could play semi tough matchups ect to alleviate some of the growing pains of a rookie D, but then Gauthier in his infinite wisdom decided another D who can't play D was exactly what the DR ordered. Unreal, thank god he is gone, seriously, beyond stupid, going into a season like that where you plan to be competitive was completely irresponsible in my view.
Spacek could barely keep up as a 3rd pair guy. Kaberle is twice the player he is.

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05-24-2012, 02:14 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
It is a sad and desperate attempt to deflect blame from their hero to anyone else. It gets even worse when they use an article that doesn't name sources and reads like it was written on this very board.
I agree; some posters in here are still hanging to their "In Bob we trust" mantra despite the fact that, post lock out, Gainey was a low tier GM with a top tier budget.

At least Gauthier won most of his trades... contrary to Bob! I am so glad Gainey is no longer with us... maybe we can now ship Gomez to Dallas?


PS The GM has the final word; the people who are blaming Gauthier for Gainey's mistakes as a GM probably think that Houle is not to blame for the Roy fiasco... I mean... who was Houle's right hand man? Let's blame him!

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05-24-2012, 02:31 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I agree; some posters in here are still hanging to their "In Bob we trust" mantra despite the fact that, post lock out, Gainey was a low tier GM with a top tier budget.

At least Gauthier won most of his trades... contrary to Bob! I am so glad Gainey is no longer with us... maybe we can now ship Gomez to Dallas?


PS The GM has the final word; the people who are blaming Gauthier for Gainey's mistakes as a GM probably think that Houle is not to blame for the Roy fiasco... I mean... who was Houle's right hand man? Let's blame him!
How about blaming both?

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05-24-2012, 02:39 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How about blaming both?
Yeah, this one is just fine with me. You're so great, wats.

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05-24-2012, 02:40 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How about blaming both?
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Yeah, this one is just fine with me. You're so great, wats.

Because when you are in charge you are imputable – that's what you signed for. For instance, it would be a cheap and cowardly move if a project director tries to put the blame of a failed project on the shoulders of one of his foremen.

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05-24-2012, 02:47 PM
  #214
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Because when you are in charge you are imputable – that's what you signed for. For instance, it would be a cheap and cowardly move if a project director tries to put the blame of a failed project on the shoulders of one of his foremen.
Well isn't that what GMs do? He fired an assistant coach then a head coach.

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05-24-2012, 02:49 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Because when you are in charge you are imputable – that's what you signed for. For instance, it would be a cheap and cowardly move if a project director tries to put the blame of a failed project on the shoulders of one of his foremen.
Good thing gainey isn't blaming gauthier, then.

And saying that all failings of the habs organization in the past X years under gainey are only attributable to him because he's a 'leader' or 'in charge' is terrible logic. Why not keep passing the blame up?

Damnit Boivin/Molson/Gillet!

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05-24-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Good thing gainey isn't blaming gauthier, then.

And saying that all failings of the habs organization in the past X years under gainey are only attributable to him because he's a 'leader' or 'in charge' is terrible logic. Why not keep passing the blame up?

Damnit Boivin/Molson/Gillet!
Isn't it common for GMs go to the owners to basically sign off on things like say acquiring big salary (trade or UFA)? No wonder Gillette abandoned ship.

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05-24-2012, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Good thing gainey isn't blaming gauthier, then.

And saying that all failings of the habs organization in the past X years under gainey are only attributable to him because he's a 'leader' or 'in charge' is terrible logic. Why not keep passing the blame up?

Damnit Boivin/Molson/Gillet!
"... And saying that all failings of the habs organization in the past X years under gainey are only attributable to him because he's a 'leader' or 'in charge' is terrible logic..."

Stop building straw man; that's not what I wrote. I just think that Gainey's apologists (blaming Gauthier for Gainey's brain dead moves as a GM!? What about accountability?) are... funny. Post lock out and after the tragic death of his daughter, Gainey was a low tier GM with a top tier budget. Too bad he refused Gillet's invitation to take a year or two off.

That being mentioned... Bob is back and that's good news: we can now hope to ship Gomez out to Dallas!

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05-24-2012, 03:13 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
"... And saying that all failings of the habs organization in the past X years under gainey are only attributable to him because he's a 'leader' or 'in charge' is terrible logic..."

Stop building straw man; that's not what I wrote. I just think that Gainey's apologists (blaming Gauthier for Gainey's brain dead moves as a GM!? What about accountability?) are... funny. Post lock out and after the tragic death of his daughter, Gainey was a low tier GM with a top tier budget. Too bad he refused Gillet's invitation to take a year or two off.

That being mentioned... Bob is back and that's good news: we can now hope to ship Gomez out to Dallas!

What apologists? Your post was in response to Wats' saying how they both should share the blame. Are we really going to get into an argument about how we portion out the blame pie? I haven't seen anyone absolve Gainey of blame for the Gomez or Ribeiro trades. If you have seen that, please, quote them so I can laugh with you. I've seen more people trying to shelter Gauthier from blame (as head pro-scout and asst. GM), to be honest.


Last edited by overlords: 05-24-2012 at 03:20 PM.
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05-24-2012, 04:03 PM
  #219
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Spacek could barely keep up as a 3rd pair guy. Kaberle is twice the player he is.
I don't think so, and I certainly don't judge players alone in isolation like that, that was half of Pierre Gauthier's problem, he didn't have any sort of balance, and you are advocating those same ideas. Spacek was a bigger need and better fit with the roster we had at the time.

Kaberle brought more of the same bad, soft D that we already had.

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05-24-2012, 04:17 PM
  #220
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JM didn't COMMUNICATE! His system did not fit THE PLAYERS HE HAD. These are not good things. I'm happy he's gone. Good coach, but he wasn't the right coach for this squad.
Of course his system was such a bad fit for this team we iced our two strongest teams in 20 years under him, and then dumped him, and had one of the worst years in our franchise's history.

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05-24-2012, 04:23 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
How about blaming both?
How about getting over it... already

It's not like the Gainey era (in extent) has left us with nothing...

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05-24-2012, 04:40 PM
  #222
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How about getting over it... already

It's not like the Gainey era (in extent) has left us with nothing...
Agreed, Gainey was excellent in the beginning, it wasn't until 2009 when he lost it.

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05-24-2012, 05:39 PM
  #223
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Here's something that irks me quite a bit with these comments. This is a guy who earns millions to play hockey. I understand the frustration he may have felt but how can he claim their was no communication and blames the whole organization. I mean how much communication and talking do you need to play hockey. Spacek was atrocious at times when he played here anyways. It was only last year he played some good games.

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05-24-2012, 05:39 PM
  #224
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I didn't like Martin, but I have to admit that when the team had bought into his system, it worked. People like to use the 09-10 playoffs as an example, but we saw his system at work in the Boston series the following year with multiple injuries to key players. You could make an argument that the habs were the better team in that series. And even though I didn't like him much, it's hard to deny what he did. I don't mean to say he was the greatest coach, but he did a lot more than people gave him credit for.

As for Gauthier, he was doing well until he went all in on Markov being healthy. He gambled the bank and was left broke. No backup plan, no savings. He paniced and tried to quick fix. I think a lot is exaggerated in his case, he was an average GM that failed by putting it all on one player.

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05-24-2012, 05:45 PM
  #225
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I didn't like Martin, but I have to admit that when the team had bought into his system, it worked. People like to use the 09-10 playoffs as an example, but we saw his system at work in the Boston series the following year with multiple injuries to key players. You could make an argument that the habs were the better team in that series. And even though I didn't like him much, it's hard to deny what he did. I don't mean to say he was the greatest coach, but he did a lot more than people gave him credit for.

As for Gauthier, he was doing well until he went all in on Markov being healthy. He gambled the bank and was left broke. No backup plan, no savings. He paniced and tried to quick fix. I think a lot is exaggerated in his case, he was an average GM that failed by putting it all on one player.
A small touch of reality emerges from the depths of depression. Thanks.

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