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Is the dead puck era returning?

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Old
05-11-2012, 05:48 PM
  #126
nanuuq
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Another question arises, why has there been a drop in penalties called?
Is it because of Owner/GM interference, or have the players become more controlled and causing fewer penalties

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05-11-2012, 05:51 PM
  #127
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Yes the minor league clutch and grab players of that era,have evolved into shot blockers

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05-11-2012, 05:56 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by NewtJorden View Post
Not yet, but its getting closer to that every year
Yup, and this chart proves it.

http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/Leagu....aspx?League=1

Look at the gradual decrease in goals per game in the last few years.

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05-11-2012, 05:59 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by nanuuq View Post
Another question arises, why has there been a drop in penalties called?
Is it because of Owner/GM interference, or have the players become more controlled and causing fewer penalties
Because I think the NHL behind the scenes is panicking about the concussion epidemic and one of the things they're probably banking on is slowing down the game will reduce the number of concussions.

If it doesn't, I suspect they will switch back to calling more obstruction penalties and put the focus on harsher suspensions + equipment modification.

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05-12-2012, 08:49 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanuuq View Post
Another question arises, why has there been a drop in penalties called?
Is it because of Owner/GM interference, or have the players become more controlled and causing fewer penalties
Systematic teams like Phoenix, NJ and Washington especially take pride in playing a disciplined game. It's not crazy offensive style with wild hitting. It's taking your man out of the play and avoid getting into fights and any forms of hostilities.

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05-12-2012, 08:56 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I brought this up in a similar thread on the Playoff Board...

I believe the problem with North American hockey (following the realization in the 90s that defensively strong teams with good goaltending can dominate offensive teams) is that here fans are more in love with the big hit that they are with scoring, though they want both. North America's smaller ice surface, in combination with big, strong defensemen who play great at their position, creates less space for offensive expression. Once you add to that the fact that goalies have also gotten bigger and better since the 80s, and their equipment is bigger, plus coaches realizing that defense wins and they're getting Forwards in on the defense-first mentality... You've effective limited what the offense can do.

You can't convince teams to play an offensive style as long as it's evidenced that defense wins. And tinkering with the rules doesn't seem to work, as we can see since the lockout... Defenses and defensive coaching have adapted.

Ultimately, fans and the League here need to make up their minds. You want more offensive expression, the League will have to slightly increase net dimensions, try to reduce goalie equipment as much as safety will permit, and ultimately have a future objective to have a bigger ice-surface. Fans will have to decide if they truly want more offensive expression at a likely cost of having fewer big hits because of more open ice.
And even then those would be artificial changes. Real changes will come about when the league decides to ban the trap once and for all and encourage offense-first run & gun hockey. The trap should be treated like interference. Because that's what it is. It's a new mentality that should be encouraged from the NHL to the amateur level, get in the coachs' mind to give people offensive, wide-open hockey. I also belive that it's a style that's actually more physical and hard-hitting because defensive is just waiting and turning the chances the others take against them while the two-men forecheck is all about instigating the play.

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05-12-2012, 08:59 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I think you're making more out of this than you should. It always comes down to execution, and sometimes the offensive teams come out on top, like when the Avalanche, Lightning and Wings were winning cups playing speedy, puck possession games in the dead puck era, or when the Ducks were winning a smash mouth brand of hockey the second year after the lockout.
But the only time offensive teams win is because they are stacked like crazy. It's not a concept that can be applied in another other circonstances.

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05-12-2012, 09:08 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by thegreaterikku View Post
Here's several simple solutions:

01- Remove the offsides which will virtually eliminate the trap and speed up the flow of the game.

02- Bring back hard penalties in goalie crease. No more crash the net in hope to score a goal. You're in the crease, then you're out.

03- Rule 02 will then eliminate the need for goalies to be uber-protected because of player crashing so equipement could be toned down.

04- Bring back pre-lockout goalie rules so good goalies could play the puck anywhere they want. Keep the same actual line since a player would get a penalty if he blatantly hits a goalie between those lines.

05- Promote referees based on grades. So a good referee would have more work than the others. Teams would have a 24h window to note on scale the referees on last game with detailed notes if there was any miss calls and a new group could check it all out and penalize team that are exagerating. Eventually, games would be called like games and not situations like it is right now.
Rules 2 and 4 would create less goals.

Rule 2: NHL used to be hard on that, remember when you couldn't score with one skate in the goalie circle? They changed that because goalie were too protected and the NHL wanted more goals.

Rule 4: They put the trapezoid in place because of Martin Brodeur and the Devils system, remember? Teams couldn't create offensive chances but the goalie would throw the puck back everytime. The advantage was for the trapping teams who would not do the two-man forecheck, getting the puck deep in the zone.

I think your only solutions is to multiply the penalties wich is not the type of hockey I would like to see. Replacing a dead puck era but an "all penalties all the time" era is not the solution.

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05-14-2012, 10:03 AM
  #134
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Haven't really read this whole thread but it's becoming increasingly obvious that the dead puck era is returning. There's a lot more interference...just a little more subtle now. Players can't skate anywhere without the other team's players getting a piece of him and of course i'm speaking of when they don't have the puck. That dump the puck in and go around the defense man doesn't happen because the refs rarely call the interference on that now. Watching the LA Phoenix game last night the Kings tactic seems to be to hit everybody after they release the puck no matter how much time has elapsed. It's starting to look like the rodeo again out there.

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05-14-2012, 10:45 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanuuq View Post
Another question arises, why has there been a drop in penalties called?
Is it because of Owner/GM interference, or have the players become more controlled and causing fewer penalties
Certainly the players are becoming slightly more disciplined, however the drop in penalties has occurred far, far too fast to be attributed significantly to that.

For whatever reason (GMs/Owners, Bettman, Complacency, etc.) referees are choosing to call far fewer penalties than they did even a few years ago.

Since the lockout here are the trends in powerplay minutes per game

05-06: 19.26 min/game
06-07: 16.17 min/game
07-08: 13.91 min/game
08-09: 13.39 min/game
09-10: 12.08 min/game
10-11: 11.66 min/game
11-12: 10.86 min/game

Compare that to the 3 years before the lockout:
01-02: 13.98
02-03: 14.89
03-04: 14.27


Even just watching the game this trend is obvious. Players are allowed to get away with more obstruction now than they were 4-5 years ago.

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05-17-2012, 05:58 PM
  #136
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I believe the biggest difference between today's NHL and the NHL of old is the science of goaltending. Watch historic NHL games...goalies of the past are ridiculously poor compared to today's standards. Having said that, there are some clear changes that can be made to improve the game.

1) Redesign goalie equipment to be protective only...particularily in the body armor, pants and the outer rim of the glove. The pads of today are designed for butterfly goalies and leave no opening when the goalie is indeed in the butterfly. This design too needs to be modified to eliminate this.

2) Like some have said, re-enforce the crease rule. This will prohibit the crash and bang teams and encourage more skill. There should be two trade offs...the goalie should only be able to cover the puck in the crease area and no other defender can enter the crease to stop or remove a puck. Further the ref should have some discretion if say a player simply has his skate glide through the outside of the crease area.

3) Enforce the rule book. If a player's stick taps a player or goes parallel to the ice to impede a player...call the penalty. Employ a zero tolerance for stick infractions. This alone would open up the game.

4) As an extension of point 3, make penalties truly punitive...do not allow icing and ensure the full 2/4/5 minutes have to be served. These two mods would greatly favor teams with skilled powerplays. Why does hockey allow a change to the rules (icing) simply because a team took a penalty? And why is the penalty over simply because the team scored? This alone would greatly increase PP scoring.

5) Eliminate deliberate shot-blocking. Nothing has stifled offensive play more than these players flopping into every shooting lane. This not a skill and, due to modern equipment, no longer an act of will. If something that not only doesn't add to the game but greatly detracts from it...get rid of it.

I would make these kinds of changes prior to making fundamental changes like net size, rink size and eliminating off-sides.

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05-19-2012, 07:48 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rtl1334 View Post
I believe the biggest difference between today's NHL and the NHL of old is the science of goaltending. Watch historic NHL games...goalies of the past are ridiculously poor compared to today's standards. Having said that, there are some clear changes that can be made to improve the game.

1) Redesign goalie equipment to be protective only...particularily in the body armor, pants and the outer rim of the glove. The pads of today are designed for butterfly goalies and leave no opening when the goalie is indeed in the butterfly. This design too needs to be modified to eliminate this.

2) Like some have said, re-enforce the crease rule. This will prohibit the crash and bang teams and encourage more skill. There should be two trade offs...the goalie should only be able to cover the puck in the crease area and no other defender can enter the crease to stop or remove a puck. Further the ref should have some discretion if say a player simply has his skate glide through the outside of the crease area.

3) Enforce the rule book. If a player's stick taps a player or goes parallel to the ice to impede a player...call the penalty. Employ a zero tolerance for stick infractions. This alone would open up the game.

4) As an extension of point 3, make penalties truly punitive...do not allow icing and ensure the full 2/4/5 minutes have to be served. These two mods would greatly favor teams with skilled powerplays. Why does hockey allow a change to the rules (icing) simply because a team took a penalty? And why is the penalty over simply because the team scored? This alone would greatly increase PP scoring.

5) Eliminate deliberate shot-blocking. Nothing has stifled offensive play more than these players flopping into every shooting lane. This not a skill and, due to modern equipment, no longer an act of will. If something that not only doesn't add to the game but greatly detracts from it...get rid of it.

I would make these kinds of changes prior to making fundamental changes like net size, rink size and eliminating off-sides.
I can take/leave the crease rule you proposed but I like most of these.

The goalie equipment should be shrunk down a bit and made protective and not tank-like. I'd also add three inches on each side of the net to compensate for the increased size/height of goalies...force them to cover a bit more real estate.

With power plays, instead of enforcing the full 2 or 4 I'd take a minute off with each goal...if you score in the first 30 seconds of a power play you reset at a minute of power play time (if it's a 4 minute pp, it'd be down to 3). Basically it doesn't completely penalize the penalized team and still allows a team a chance for multiple goals on a PP. If a team scores two PP goals on a single minor, penalized player is free to come back in.

Deliberate shot blocking outside of the crease (except when your goalie is out of crease area and you're bailing him out) should be treated as a diving penalty...

The biggest thing the NHL simply needs to do is call the hooks and obstruction that they're not calling consistently. It's pretty clear they've allowed the crapshow of clutch and grab to come back into the league.

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05-24-2012, 08:56 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Chukcha View Post
what do you peolpe think, is it worth to reduce the puck size?
white pucks will add enough confusion to throw a wobbler into over-quantized. defence hockey The puck can have a tracer on it, so the TV graphics can make it bright red for people at home.

As for the fans in the rink well they will just have to concentrate as hard as the players

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05-24-2012, 09:08 PM
  #139
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it was the unpredictability, speed and skill that always made hockey a great game. Pandering its rules to those who want to see big hits and lots of defence is never good for any team sport.

Not sure about the fights. Sometimes they are a welcome break from a dull game, other times they interrupt a good game flow. The fights are mostly tedious, and repetitive. When has anything original or interesting happened in a fight anyway ? I understand from playing how a good bash around, helps regulate your emotions. but if there was a ban on fighting I am sure we find other ways to do that.

Perhaps those players who feel better after bashing each other around can earn a no-penalty by having a plexi-cage they can step into for a couple of minutes while the game continues.

OK perhaps thats another thread.

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05-24-2012, 11:16 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by rogerharris View Post
it was the unpredictability, speed and skill that always made hockey a great game. Pandering its rules to those who want to see big hits and lots of defence is never good for any team sport.

Not sure about the fights. Sometimes they are a welcome break from a dull game, other times they interrupt a good game flow. The fights are mostly tedious, and repetitive. When has anything original or interesting happened in a fight anyway ? I understand from playing how a good bash around, helps regulate your emotions. but if there was a ban on fighting I am sure we find other ways to do that.

Perhaps those players who feel better after bashing each other around can earn a no-penalty by having a plexi-cage they can step into for a couple of minutes while the game continues.

OK perhaps thats another thread.
I think some of the most important fights were the bench clearing brawls that used to occur. It basically provided a pressure release mechanism for teams and then the games could continue without alot of the chippier play.

The dead puck era is back with a miserable vengeance. Players and fans both hate it. The cronies at Bettman Inc. likely love it or don't know any better anyways - likely the latter. Btw, is Bettman still trying to open that puck up?

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05-25-2012, 01:25 AM
  #141
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What people complaining about the goaltending save percentages going up recently don't realize is that its due to the historic lows in penalties called recently. Average even strength save percentage hasn't budged since the lockout, its the lack of high percentage powerplay shots that's ballooning save percentage.

Also parity forces more defensive focus. The league is about as equal as its been in the modern era. The easiest way to improve offence is to get it so their are a bunch of sad sack franchises to beat up on like there were in the eighties and early nineties.

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05-25-2012, 07:24 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
What people complaining about the goaltending save percentages going up recently don't realize is that its due to the historic lows in penalties called recently. Average even strength save percentage hasn't budged since the lockout, its the lack of high percentage powerplay shots that's ballooning save percentage.

Also parity forces more defensive focus. The league is about as equal as its been in the modern era. The easiest way to improve offence is to get it so their are a bunch of sad sack franchises to beat up on like there were in the eighties and early nineties.
There is a lot of truth in the above post.

What's annoying though about a great part of this thread is that most people complaining are directly translating "dead puck era" into "low scoring". The so-called "dead puck era" related to little area for puck movement which then resulted in low scoring.

And as for fewer powerplays,... Can we really fault teams/players for not giving their opponents more opportunities on the PP during Playoff time? If anything, fewer PPs could more so be a result of low scoring games, rather than a cause.

There are numerous variables here that lead to the lower scoring. There is no simple fix (if in fact it even needs fixing), and no simple fix that teams can't adapt to as they have since the rule changes made at the lockout.

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05-25-2012, 07:59 AM
  #143
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Because I think the NHL behind the scenes is panicking about the concussion epidemic and one of the things they're probably banking on is slowing down the game will reduce the number of concussions.

If it doesn't, I suspect they will switch back to calling more obstruction penalties and put the focus on harsher suspensions + equipment modification.
I guess just have to face it that hockey has reached the limit of human athletic ability and perception, any greater effort by a player to attain skills, strategy, game vision through their career now has diminishing returns.

So somebody like crosby, obsessed and spending his entire life gaining every skill possible and playing with passion in the current defense orientated environment gets whacked out the play for being too much a freewheeler. Players like Datsyuk do well, because their outsmart everybody mindset fits well in a tight defensive game. As we see in a vid on the datsyuk thread, this week (how does he do what he does) Datsyuk is even into trying to dangle defencemen so they try to make hits on him !

anyway both players may be at the limits of what a player can do speed wise, i like the tension of the current game, when it started getting so tight, but now its become slightly tedious, up and down, same game everywhere, with slight variations. And very sad that freewheelers at the peak of what a player can achieve cant survive in the current environment.

Either feed all the players drugs, so they can play crosby style or restore the game back to the euro standard. hockey is like an arena of evolution, you dont want to interfere too much except with reducing the concussion stuff, but then thats related to the problem discussed on this thread.

how is it they made formula 1 motor racing safer ? Lots of Rules and regs. Interesting that when this happened we only every had one clear winner for over a decade. too much rules and regs, seems to lead to the evolution of a convergence where only a single archetype of performer can thrive.

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05-25-2012, 08:47 AM
  #144
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I don't think so. NJ and LA have an aggressive forechecking style that leads to goals. They both outplay their opponents by pretty large margins. I think something else is coming. Besides a possible lockout or strike I mean. I doubt the NY style takes hold even if they win it all. I think the NHL may make rule changes to prevent it.

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05-25-2012, 05:14 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
There is a lot of truth in the above post.

What's annoying though about a great part of this thread is that most people complaining are directly translating "dead puck era" into "low scoring". The so-called "dead puck era" related to little area for puck movement which then resulted in low scoring.

And as for fewer powerplays,... Can we really fault teams/players for not giving their opponents more opportunities on the PP during Playoff time? If anything, fewer PPs could more so be a result of low scoring games, rather than a cause.

There are numerous variables here that lead to the lower scoring. There is no simple fix (if in fact it even needs fixing), and no simple fix that teams can't adapt to as they have since the rule changes made at the lockout.

Exactly.

All the posters calling for smaller goalie equipment, larger nets, no shot blocking allowed rules are over compensating an issue which isn't an immediate problem.

Yes scoring is down, yes penalty minutes down. At the same time, you also have to look at the increase in focus on better goaltending systems/training as well as an improvement and almost a direct focus upon defense first style of play instead of the run and gun, high risk high reward system.

This isn't a simple issue that is easily solved with a few radical rule changes. There are larger fundamental issues that are coming into play here.

Changing the game radically will only hurt it, not improve it.

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12-01-2013, 12:25 PM
  #146
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It's baaaaaaack. Scores seem to be down again and games are very tight and we're not even in December. Was watching the Avs-Minny game last night and refs let interference/picks/holding go on both sides and called basically nothing.

Those new rule changes like shallower nets will make no difference if they let players interfere to this extent.

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12-01-2013, 12:34 PM
  #147
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I agree that we're seeing more clutch and grab again. The PP totals are down and it's worrying in terms of mass appeal.

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12-01-2013, 02:14 PM
  #148
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I agree that we're seeing more clutch and grab again. The PP totals are down and it's worrying in terms of mass appeal.
I don't see it. If anything it seems like the last few games I watched the leafs play they got called for a lot of interference calls (1 team I know)

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12-01-2013, 04:35 PM
  #149
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As far as low scores, I think the big reasons are better defensive systems, every player back checks like their life depends on it and amazing goalies. The one thing I have noticed is during back checks, are the players are being allowed to put a stick or shoulder into the guys they are back checking against. I am not sure why a player is even allowed to touch a player who doesn't have the puck let alone push and jostle all the way down the ice with them.

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12-01-2013, 05:07 PM
  #150
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Games are getting pretty boring.... maybe cause I watch the Caps a lot and they suck balls.

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