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Jordan Staal V

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Old
05-26-2012, 02:57 AM
  #1
Riptide
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Jordan Staal V

Last post from the previous thread.

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This past season, you were eliminated in the 1st round with Staal playing his best hockey and Malkin playing some of his worst. Can you really say that your chances are any worse if you trade Staal for Kulemin+ and Malkin plays his Art Ross form in the playoffs?
Not sure why the only options you listed were "Staal plus bad Malkin or Kulemin plus good Malkin"
I can say with confidence that the Pens are a much better team with Staal than Kulemin, all other things being equal.
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And I can safely say that if Staal is as integral to your Cup chances as you make him out to be, when you've got two of the best players in the game on the team, you have bigger issues that keeping/trading Staal won't effect.
This.

I'd rather have Kulemin and whatever else we got in the trade and a decent 3c for 2-3 years than Staal for 1 year.

Always getting the best player in a trade isn't a bad idea... however we have 3-5 stars already. Depth wins cups. Look at what Philly's depth did to us. Look at LA. Unless they have a complete melt down, sometime in the next 2 weeks they'll be hosting the cup. They probably have the most depth since Chicago won the other year. They certainly have more depth than the Pens have ever had. And if you're honest you'll recognize that we got lucky against Detroit. We shouldn't have won game 7.


Last edited by Riptide: 05-26-2012 at 04:03 AM.
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05-26-2012, 05:00 AM
  #2
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Jordan Staal V - The Empire Strikes Back

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05-26-2012, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime
Why would Jeffrey work out better than Bolland? That really doesn't make sense. Bolland was the third line center on a Stanley Cup Champion who was widely acclaimed for his excellent play. He puts up points every year too not that far off from Staal until this year really. Staal is not a Superstar while Bolland is just some overpaid "reclamation project". Your values are way off.
My values are spot on if you actually know the Pens roster.

Bolland has not broken 40 points in the last three seasons. Jeffrey is more than capable of putting up 30-35 points and playing a responsible two way game. Why would the Pens pay Bolland 3.3m when Jeffrey can put up similar numbers at 550k? That is the whole point of having NHL ready talent like Jeffrey.

Jeffrey + a legit top 6 winger Shero can bring in a Staal trade > than Bolland and futures.

Shero wants to win now. He isn't selling off Staal and going into rebuilding mode.

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05-26-2012, 08:59 AM
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It's obvious that Shero will only move Staal for an overpayment but a trading partner willing to do that must also have a defined, compelling need for Staal. Seems obvious enough but almost all of the teams that keep coming up - Chicago, Carolina, Detroit, New York - have other greater needs.

So without the compelling need why would they use the assets on Staal that could go to a greater need? I've seen the argument that Staal's combination of skills make him such a unique player, etc. but as good as he is, he is still a complementary player on all those teams.

It seems Toronto does have the compelling need and Staal is as close to a blueprint of what Burke likes in a forward. If Staal is traded, there's always the possibility that some team not being mentioned becomes the destination but the Leafs would seem to be the best fit of these teams mentioned so far.

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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
My values are spot on if you actually know the Pens roster.

Bolland has not broken 40 points in the last three seasons. Jeffrey is more than capable of putting up 30-35 points and playing a responsible two way game. Why would the Pens pay Bolland 3.3m when Jeffrey can put up similar numbers at 550k? That is the whole point of having NHL ready talent like Jeffrey.

Jeffrey + a legit top 6 winger Shero can bring in a Staal trade > than Bolland and futures.

Shero wants to win now. He isn't selling off Staal and going into rebuilding mode.
I agree with the other guy. I think your values are off. You are speculating quite about about Jeffrey's capabilities while selling short proven shutdown centers like Bolland and Sutter. To ask if Sutter is really a big upgrade over Jeffrey tells me you're overvaluing Jeffrey and/or undervaluing Sutter. Same is true of Bolland and by citing his less than 40 points production over the last seasons, you fail to point out he's had a number of injuries that have limited the number of games in which he's played.

There is a significant difference between being capable of playing a "responsible two way game" and being a proven shutdown center. Jeffrey seems more like a Patrick Dwyer type player - solid but nothing more.


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05-26-2012, 09:15 AM
  #5
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If your offering does not make the Pens a better team than they are today, then it doesn't make sense to trade Jordan Staal to you. If it's a better player than Staal, a combination that fills several needs, then Shero should look into it.

Otherwise, the Pens have little need for you as they are not looking for futures with him. They have other assets to get prospects/draft picks/ or bottom six or third pairing players.

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05-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber
And I can safely say that if Staal is as integral to your Cup chances as you make him out to be, when you've got two of the best players in the game on the team, you have bigger issues that keeping/trading Staal won't effect.
Staal's not integral, he simply makes the Pens a definitively better team than Kulemin or Sutter, which is why we'd like to keep him. We want to retain our very good players, even though we have a couple great ones. By the same token, we have no compulsion to deal Neal or Letang either.

I'm not sure what part of this is so difficult for you.


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05-26-2012, 10:22 AM
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While I agree that Chicago's deal wasn't a bad one in terms of value, I agree with other posters, it's just not what the Pens need.

Bolland isn't an upgrade over Staal, I don't know how high the Pens are on Saad because he was there at 23 when they picked Morrow, and he went 20 picks later. The 18th overall won't really help us immediately.

If the Pens do trade Staal, we would probably need to address a need for the team.

I disagree with the media and some posters on here though, people make it sound like a sure thing that Staal will be traded, when Staal or his agent haven't even asked for a trade, so there will be negotiations which means he won't be traded at the draft unless he does ask for a trade.

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05-26-2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
I agree with the other guy. I think your values are off. You are speculating quite about about Jeffrey's capabilities while selling short proven shutdown centers like Bolland and Sutter. To ask if Sutter is really a big upgrade over Jeffrey tells me you're overvaluing Jeffrey and/or undervaluing Sutter. Same is true of Bolland and by citing his less than 40 points production over the last seasons, you fail to point out he's had a number of injuries that have limited the number of games in which he's played.

There is a significant difference between being capable of playing a "responsible two way game" and being a proven shutdown center. Jeffrey seems more like a Patrick Dwyer type player - solid but nothing more.
I never said Jeffrey has to be better than Sutter/Bolland. I said he is capable of putting up 30-35 points and playing a responsible two way game. I have watched Jeffrey since juniors, into the A and NHL, so I am pretty sure I am more familiar with what he is capable of than you or this other guy. All he has done is produce at every level, including the NHL until he hurt his knee. It isn't a stretch to think he can fill the third pivot role, especially when you consider his considerable hockey IQ and the defensive acumen that has always been part of his game.

Furthermore, my argument is based around Jeffrey, his 550k cap hit PLUS a legit top 6 winger that could be brought back in the Staal trade vs Bolland/Sutter.

Anyone familiar with the Pens roster would prefer option A, and I am positive that includes Shero. I am pretty sure Botterill (Pens cap mgr) would be the first one to bring Jeffrey's bargain cap hit to Shero's attention if he was considering trading for Sutter or Bolland.

Why pay a guy 2 or 3m to play that role when you have an in-house solution and could fill other more pressing needs on your roster with the Staal trade?

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05-26-2012, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I never said Jeffrey has to be better than Sutter/Bolland. I said he is capable of putting up 30-35 points and playing a responsible two way game. I have watched Jeffrey since juniors, into the A and NHL, so I am pretty sure I am more familiar with what he is capable of than you or this other guy. All he has done is produce at every level, including the NHL until he hurt his knee. It isn't a stretch to think he can fill the third pivot role, especially when you consider his considerable hockey IQ and the defensive acumen that has always been part of his game.

Furthermore, my argument is based around Jeffrey, his 550k cap hit PLUS a legit top 6 winger that could be brought back in the Staal trade vs Bolland/Sutter.
And? Where did I say you did? I merely agreed your values are off in terms of Sutter and Bolland. Yes, I'm sure you are more familiar with Jeffrey than I am but I guarantee you I'm more familiar with Sutter and Bolland.

You asked if Sutter is really a big upgrade over Jeffrey. Yes, he is a big upgrade and it tells me you haven't paid much attention to Sutter. You then cherry-picked injury-plagued seasons by Bolland and projected what Jeffrey could be capable of producing. Clearly there is a difference in cap hit just as Sutter/Bolland are proven shut down centers while Jeffrey would be a responsible two-way player.

All that aside, I do agree that the better option for Pitt is potentially trade with teams other than Chicago or Carolina. That brings me back to TO and there is where you are most likely to get your top 6 forward in exchange.

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05-26-2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
And? Where did I say you did? I merely agreed your values are off in terms of Sutter and Bolland. Yes, I'm sure you are more familiar with Jeffrey than I am but I guarantee you I'm more familiar with Sutter and Bolland.

You asked if Sutter is really a big upgrade over Jeffrey. Yes, he is a big upgrade and it tells me you haven't paid much attention to Sutter. You then cherry-picked injury-plagued seasons by Bolland and projected what Jeffrey could be capable of producing. Clearly there is a difference in cap hit just as Sutter/Bolland are proven shut down centers while Jeffrey would be a responsible two-way player.

All that aside, I do agree that the better option for Pitt is potentially trade with teams other than Chicago or Carolina. That brings me back to TO and there is where you are most likely to get your top 6 forward in exchange.
Who from TO?

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05-26-2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
And? Where did I say you did? I merely agreed your values are off in terms of Sutter and Bolland. Yes, I'm sure you are more familiar with Jeffrey than I am but I guarantee you I'm more familiar with Sutter and Bolland.

You asked if Sutter is really a big upgrade over Jeffrey. Yes, he is a big upgrade and it tells me you haven't paid much attention to Sutter. You then cherry-picked injury-plagued seasons by Bolland and projected what Jeffrey could be capable of producing. Clearly there is a difference in cap hit just as Sutter/Bolland are proven shut down centers while Jeffrey would be a responsible two-way player.

All that aside, I do agree that the better option for Pitt is potentially trade with teams other than Chicago or Carolina. That brings me back to TO and there is where you are most likely to get your top 6 forward in exchange.
My values aren't off, because for the third time I am comparing Jeffrey AND a legit top 6 winger vs Bolland/Sutter. Also, suggesting that Jeffrey can have the modest production in terms of points as these two isn't a bold statement. So no, I don't believe Bolland or Sutter is some major upgrade that makes moving Staal for either of these players to really be worth it.

Bolland HAS been injured, and this season when he played most of the games, he still didn't break 40 points. The biggest Bolland homer will tell you he is inconsistent. So again, tell me how I somehow devalued him?

You can also sing the praises of Sutter left and right, but trying to tell me he would improve the Pens roster more than having Jeffrey as the third pivot and a legit top 6 winger is comical.

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05-26-2012, 11:28 AM
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It's obvious that Shero will only move Staal for an overpayment but a trading partner willing to do that must also have a defined, compelling need for Staal. Seems obvious enough but almost all of the teams that keep coming up - Chicago, Carolina, Detroit, New York - have other greater needs.

So without the compelling need why would they use the assets on Staal that could go to a greater need? I've seen the argument that Staal's combination of skills make him such a unique player, etc. but as good as he is, he is still a complementary player on all those teams.

It seems Toronto does have the compelling need and Staal is as close to a blueprint of what Burke likes in a forward. If Staal is traded, there's always the possibility that some team not being mentioned becomes the destination but the Leafs would seem to be the best fit of these teams mentioned so far.
Leafs yes. Carolina yes (although we know Rutherford has no interest in a do-over from his 2006 decision to pass on Shero's 'overpayment' counter). If I could figure out the mix of players, then I'd add Buffalo to that mix, Calgary too. And, frankly, if he wouldn't break their budget, then St Louis makes a lot of sense as a partner.

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Who from TO?
You are such a trouble maker.

Leaving aside whether Burke should or will do it (I think he will) and whether he'd pay what Shero will want in addition (I think he'll do that too), I would think that Kulemin and the 5th overall will be the starting point, in the same way that Sutter and the 8th overall would be the starting point with Carolina (again, leaving out the 'should' question and focusing on the 'if trade talks get serious' question).


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05-26-2012, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
My values aren't off, because for the third time I am comparing Jeffrey AND a legit top 6 winger vs Bolland/Sutter. Also, suggesting that Jeffrey can have the modest production in terms of points as these two isn't a bold statement. So no, I don't believe either is some major upgrade that makes moving Staal for either of these players to really be worth it.

Bolland HAS been injured, and this season when he played most of the games, he still didn't break 40 points. The biggest Bolland homer will tell you he is inconsistent. So again, tell me how I somehow devalued him?

You can also sing the praises of Sutter left and right, but trying to tell me he would improve the Pens roster more than having Jeffrey as the third pivot and a legit top 6 winger is comical.
Trust me, I understand your point. Take a moment to understand mine. Again, I agree with the premise and I've posted several times that the Pens best trading partners do not include Carolina or Chicago. And feel free to re-read the last line of my post, which you quoted in reference to a top 6 forward.

You devalued both Bolland and Sutter in much the same way many Pens fans feel Staal has been devalued. They are shutdown centers whose point totals are not going to reflect their worth. They are all also inconsistent point producers. Jeffrey is not and will never be a shutdown center and will not be a consistent point producer.

Though I agree that getting a top 6 winger is a greater priority, you are rationalizing your conclusion with misinformation - overvaluing Jeffrey and undervaluing Sutter/Bolland. Thus your values are off but I'm on board with the idea.

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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Leafs yes. Carolina yes (although we know Rutherford has no interest in a do-over from his 2006 decision to pass on Shero's 'overpayment' counter). If I could figure out the mix of players, then I'd add Buffalo to that mix, Calgary too. And, frankly, if he wouldn't break their budget, then St Louis makes a lot of sense as a partner.
Carolina would be a long-shot but only because it's Jordan Staal instead of Jordan Smith. Without the Staal name, it'd be a non-issue as there are greater needs. Yes, Calgary is another that makes sense. St. Louis not as much in my mind though.

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05-26-2012, 11:35 AM
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Trust me, I understand your point. Take a moment to understand mine. Again, I agree with the premise and I've posted several times that the Pens best trading partners do not include Carolina or Chicago. And feel free to re-read the last line of my post, which you quoted in reference to a top 6 forward.

You devalued both Bolland and Sutter in much the same way many Pens fans feel Staal has been devalued. They are shutdown centers whose point totals are not going to reflect their worth. They are all also inconsistent point producers. Jeffrey is not and will never be a shutdown center and will not be a consistent point producer.

Though I agree that getting a top 6 winger is a greater priority, you are rationalizing your conclusion with misinformation - overvaluing Jeffrey and undervaluing Sutter/Bolland. Thus your values are off but I'm on board with the idea.


Carolina would be a long-shot but only because it's Jordan Staal instead of Jordan Smith. Without the Staal name, it'd be a non-issue as there are greater needs. Yes, Calgary is another that makes sense. St. Louis not as much in my mind though.
I don't necessarily disagree with that.

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05-26-2012, 11:39 AM
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I don't necessarily disagree with that.
Rutherford gets enamored with certain players for certain reasons. In Jordan Staal's case it's a double-dose of reasoning. Carolina has a dearth of playmakers, both on the wing and down the middle. The leading goal scorers, E. Staal and Skinner are both shoot-first guys. They don't need another C whose playmaking skills are subpar. Jordan would be a perfect power forward complement on the wing to Eric but that raises a whole other set of issues.

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05-26-2012, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Rutherford gets enamored with certain players for certain reasons. In Jordan Staal's case it's a double-dose of reasoning. Carolina has a dearth of playmakers, both on the wing and down the middle. The leading goal scorers, E. Staal and Skinner are both shoot-first guys. They don't need another C whose playmaking skills are subpar. Jordan would be a perfect power forward complement on the wing to Eric but that raises a whole other set of issues.
Or Sutter on Jordan's wing, but that's prettymuch a non-starter to Pens fans if Sutter isn't being included in the deal, unless it's Skinner which makes things an absolute non-starter for the Canes.

Frankly I wouldn't give up Sutter and the #8 for Staal, especially not with just 1 year left on his contract with him looking for a heavy raise. That's been my position for a long time.

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05-26-2012, 11:51 AM
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Trust me, I understand your point. Take a moment to understand mine. Again, I agree with the premise and I've posted several times that the Pens best trading partners do not include Carolina or Chicago. And feel free to re-read the last line of my post, which you quoted in reference to a top 6 forward.

You devalued both Bolland and Sutter in much the same way many Pens fans feel Staal has been devalued. They are shutdown centers whose point totals are not going to reflect their worth. They are all also inconsistent point producers. Jeffrey is not and will never be a shutdown center and will not be a consistent point producer.

Though I agree that getting a top 6 winger is a greater priority, you are rationalizing your conclusion with misinformation - overvaluing Jeffrey and undervaluing Sutter/Bolland. Thus your values are off but I'm on board with the idea.
.
I understand your point. Sutter and Bolland bring other intangibles. I said that several times already. Once again I was speaking purely about point production, then about Jeffrey and a top 6 winger vs Bolland/Sutter. There was no misinformation there. You simply want to pump up Sutter and that's fine, but if you want to use what I said as a slight agt him you are really reaching.

Ironically you admonish me for undervaluing Bolland/Sutter, then you make a blanket statement about what Jeffrey can be.

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05-26-2012, 12:04 PM
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Or Sutter on Jordan's wing, but that's prettymuch a non-starter to Pens fans if Sutter isn't being included in the deal, unless it's Skinner which makes things an absolute non-starter for the Canes.

Frankly I wouldn't give up Sutter and the #8 for Staal, especially not with just 1 year left on his contract with him looking for a heavy raise. That's been my position for a long time.
And, that's perfectly fair (just like Stormcast's critique of Staal's game). But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that Shero is willing to move Staal and that Rutherford is sufficiently enamored to make Sutter and the 8th overall part of the package. If there is a deal to be made, then I think it's safe to say it's something like Sutter, the 8th overall, and a defenseman (consensus seems to be McBain) for Staal and Martin. Again, leaving aside whether Rutherford should do it or should be enamored with Staal, I think that's where he'll be willing to go. Thing is, I'm not sure Shero won't push for a little more, and I'm not sure another team won't.

To be fair, I'm one of the people who has said since the beginning that, right or wrong and fair or not, Shero will push for a Mike Richards plus a premium return. I think you'll see a half dozen teams maybe offering slightly better, and the question then is whether one team steps up a little beyond that. I think a team will. Frankly, I think Shero will get the type of value he set as what he wants when and if a Staal process starts. The bigger question for me is whether he'll pull the trigger when he gets it.

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05-26-2012, 12:16 PM
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I understand your point. Sutter and Bolland bring other intangibles. I said that several times already. Once again I was speaking purely about point production, then about Jeffrey and a top 6 winger vs Bolland/Sutter. There was no misinformation there. You simply want to pump up Sutter and that's fine, but if you want to use what I said as a slight agt him you are really reaching.

Ironically you admonish me for undervaluing Bolland/Sutter, then you make a blanket statement about what Jeffrey can be.
But why limit the role of a shutdown C to point production? Makes no sense and we both know that, and it's always been the pro-Staal argument by Pens fans. Come on, let's be real here.

No, I'm not pumping up Sutter and I'm not advocating a trade for Staal. Did you see where I criticized Sutter for being inconsistent and not being a good playmaker? Not sure how that constitutes trying to pump him up.

Merely pointing out that you undervalued him and Bolland by ignoring their leadership and defensive skills while projecting what you think a favorite of yours like Jeffrey might do. Yes, I stated Jeffrey would never be a shutdown center. I also said he wouldn't be a consistent point producer. Keep in mind, you havce him on the 3rd line where he'll be playing with weak wings and not getting PP time, just like Jordan Staal. So are you saying you think he will be a shutdown center and a consistent point producer?

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And, that's perfectly fair (just like Stormcast's critique of Staal's game). But, let's say, for the sake of argument, that Shero is willing to move Staal and that Rutherford is sufficiently enamored to make Sutter and the 8th overall part of the package. If there is a deal to be made, then I think it's safe to say it's something like Sutter, the 8th overall, and a defenseman (consensus seems to be McBain) for Staal and Martin. Again, leaving aside whether Rutherford should do it or should be enamored with Staal, I think that's where he'll be willing to go. Thing is, I'm not sure Shero won't push for a little more, and I'm not sure another team won't.
I wouldn't be in favor of that deal. You lose an asset with the 1st round pick, a shutdown C with an A, and a really good RH Dman to take on tons more salary. That severely limits the Canes in trading for the real need, a top-flight winger. I'd rather trade McBain and the 1st pick for a top winger and use Ruutu, Jokinen or Skinner as the 2C.

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05-26-2012, 12:29 PM
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I honestly don't think this years pick is going to be in play if it's the Canes and Pens making the trade. It likely wouldn't happen until after the draft since JR is likely going to see what he can get in UFA before making a move. Not sure how the Pens would feel about the Canes 2013 first despite it being a stronger draft. Too many variables.

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05-26-2012, 12:31 PM
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Pens definitely wouldn't have much interest in Canes 2013 1st, no idea where it could be.

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05-26-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
My values are spot on if you actually know the Pens roster.

Bolland has not broken 40 points in the last three seasons. Jeffrey is more than capable of putting up 30-35 points and playing a responsible two way game. Why would the Pens pay Bolland 3.3m when Jeffrey can put up similar numbers at 550k? That is the whole point of having NHL ready talent like Jeffrey.

Jeffrey + a legit top 6 winger Shero can bring in a Staal trade > than Bolland and futures.

Shero wants to win now. He isn't selling off Staal and going into rebuilding mode.
Because this idea of Jeffrey being able to step in and get 30-35 points immediately is hopeful speculation. Quit talking down to everyone. The Pens haven't done anything the last three years with Staal.

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05-26-2012, 12:44 PM
  #23
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
My values aren't off, because for the third time I am comparing Jeffrey AND a legit top 6 winger vs Bolland/Sutter. Also, suggesting that Jeffrey can have the modest production in terms of points as these two isn't a bold statement. So no, I don't believe Bolland or Sutter is some major upgrade that makes moving Staal for either of these players to really be worth it.

Bolland HAS been injured, and this season when he played most of the games, he still didn't break 40 points. The biggest Bolland homer will tell you he is inconsistent. So again, tell me how I somehow devalued him?

You can also sing the praises of Sutter left and right, but trying to tell me he would improve the Pens roster more than having Jeffrey as the third pivot and a legit top 6 winger is comical.
Who is offering you a legit top 6 winger for Staal and what type of package do you have in mind? Staal+ for Sharp? If you attempt to claim the + should go the other way then no deal. Sharp is signed at a reasonable cap hit for a long time whereas Staal is a pending UFA. You have to realize any team getting Staal only has him locked up for this next year so they're not going to give you any top 6 winger that meets your criteria (since it's clear you'll probably bemoan any option as A) too expensive, B) too old, or C) not clearly proven to be better than Staal.

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05-26-2012, 12:50 PM
  #24
Ogelthorpe
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I still feel it is in the Pens best interest to make more of a 1 on 1 trade that will help them win now, if they move Staal. Thinking a player like Bobby Ryan, or that caliber type of winger for Staal, with possible picks to even any value differential.

Pens get a wing for Sid, other team gets a #1 or #2C

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05-26-2012, 12:52 PM
  #25
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
I still feel it is in the Pens best interest to make more of a 1 on 1 trade that will help them win now, if they move Staal. Thinking a player like Bobby Ryan, or that caliber type of winger for Staal, with possible picks to even any value differential.

Pens get a wing for Sid, other team gets a #1 or #2C
Three years of Bobby Ryan >>>> 1 year of Jordan Staal.

Again, if Pens think a team is going to bend over backwards to trade a young 1st line Winger for a 2nd line center then they should just hold onto Staal and see what happens in Free Agency.

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