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Old
05-26-2012, 11:58 AM
  #26
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staal for staal

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05-26-2012, 12:00 PM
  #27
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McGuire doesn’t see Sidney Crosby or Jordan Staal getting moved. He called it pure speculation that Evgeni Malkin could get traded but he believes that of the three Malkin would go first.

......

The NBC analyst doesn’t believe Jordan Staal is going anywhere, though it’s possible the Staal brothers hold out hope of playing together some day. He doesn’t see that happening in Pittsburgh or New York, but perhaps that could happen in Carolina.

McGuire doesn’t believe Toronto has much hope of landing a Malkin or Staal. He doesn’t believe the Leafs have the prospects Pittsburgh would want. He called the organization “asset poor.”

McGuire says that he understands the Toronto AHL team is having success but that doesn’t equate to NHL success, that they may have one strong player or so. Brian Burke will be entering his fifth year but still doesn’t have much to work with.



http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/John-...uire/150/44620

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05-26-2012, 12:04 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Staal's not integral, he simply makes the Pens a definitively better team than Kulemin or Sutter, which is why we'd like to keep him. We want to retain our very good players, even though we have a couple great ones. By the same token, we have no compulsion to deal Neal or Letang either.

I'm not sure what part of this is so difficult for you.
And that's a very short-sighted point of view, a position a GM would never take. Yes, having Staal for one year instead of Kulemin or Sutter in that same year will possibly make the Pens a better team (and yes, it is possibly since you simply have no idea how Kulemin/Sutter will perform for the Pens...or Staal next year for that matter).

However, it's not Staal for Kulemin/Sutter. It's Staal for Kulemin/Sutter+. And those pieces in the + make the Pens better in the future (and again, possibly next year depending on who's included in the +), which matters if Shero believes he can't keep Staal in that same future. He's not only thinking about next year. He's thinking about the many years afterward as well.

Again, your whole reasoning was that if the offer doesn't blow you away, you'd rather keep Staal for a Cup run and let him walk after that. My reasoning is "You've got Crosby and Malkin. If they're playing their best hockey, you could have Staal/Sutter/Jeffery/Bolland/whoever in that 3rd line role and your Cup chances are about the same." However, the advantage of trading for those other players instead of keeping Staal is you get more depth/a better future in addition to that great Cup chance.

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05-26-2012, 12:39 PM
  #29
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When Mike Richards was traded, he had just tallied 4 consecutive seasons of 60+ point play (including a year of 80 points and a year of 70) while bringing a great defensive game. He was also signed to another 9 years at a very affordable rate.

I don't see the comparison to Staal, who has never cracked 50 points and is only signed for one more year (and reported to be asking more than Mike RIchards is making). You can't ask for a return on the level of Mike Richards. The situations are not the same.


Last edited by Finlandia WOAT: 05-26-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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05-26-2012, 12:48 PM
  #30
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Yes, having Staal for one year instead of Kulemin or Sutter in that same year will possibly make the Pens a better team (and yes, it is possibly since you simply have no idea how Kulemin/Sutter will perform for the Pens...or Staal next year for that matter).
Alright. Kennedy, Bennett, and a 2012 1st for Skinner. It will possibly make the Canes a better team next year, because you simply have no idea how Kennedy will perform for the Canes.

Quote:
However, it's not Staal for Kulemin/Sutter. It's Staal for Kulemin/Sutter+. And those pieces in the + make the Pens better in the future (and again, possibly next year depending on who's included in the +), which matters if Shero believes he can't keep Staal in that same future. He's not only thinking about next year. He's thinking about the many years afterward as well.
This is rich. I can't reasonably predict that Staal would have a bigger impact next year than Kulemin/Sutter based on their respective performances last year, but you have no problem stating that these to-be-determined assets will make the Pens better in the future.

Quote:
Again, your whole reasoning was that if the offer doesn't blow you away, you'd rather keep Staal for a Cup run and let him walk after that. My reasoning is "You've got Crosby and Malkin. If they're playing their best hockey, you could have Staal/Sutter/Jeffery/Bolland/whoever in that 3rd line role and your Cup chances are about the same." However, the advantage of trading for those other players instead of keeping Staal is you get more depth/a better future in addition to that great Cup chance.
No. Staal would improve the Pens' chances, because he's a much better player than any of the others listed.

Greater Cup chance with Staal, then possible UFA > lesser Cup chance plus mediocre future depth. Deal with it.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 05-26-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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Old
05-26-2012, 12:52 PM
  #31
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staal for staal
I'll help pack Jared's bags.

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Old
05-26-2012, 12:55 PM
  #32
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When Mike Richards was traded, he had just tallied 4 consecutive seasons of 60+ point play (including a year of 80 points and a year of 70) while bringing a great defensive game. He was also signed to another 9 years at a very affordable rate.

I don't see the comparison to Staal, who has never cracked 50 points and is only signed for one more year. You can't ask for a return on the level of Mike Richards. The situations are not the same.
Richards had to be traded due to "extra-curricular activities", and was 3 years older than Staal when he was dealt. People (willingly) forget how young Staal is, and how much that factors in...he was the same age this past season as Richards was in his breakout '07-'08 year.

Richards also had plenty of plum opportunities on scoring lines and on the PP. GMs aren't ignorant of the fact that Staal has produced in spite of playing in situations that are less-than-conducive to production because of Crosby and Malkin.

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05-26-2012, 01:14 PM
  #33
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Jordan staal and zbynek michalek for Luke schenn Tyler bozak Nikolai kulemin and 2012 1st

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05-26-2012, 01:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Three years of Bobby Ryan >>>> 1 year of Jordan Staal.

Again, if Pens think a team is going to bend over backwards to trade a young 1st line Winger for a 2nd line center then they should just hold onto Staal and see what happens in Free Agency.
You are saying this with the speculation that Staal leaves after next year. What if he re-signs with the Ducks?

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05-26-2012, 01:40 PM
  #35
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But why limit the role of a shutdown C to point production? Makes no sense and we both know that, and it's always been the pro-Staal argument by Pens fans. Come on, let's be real here.

No, I'm not pumping up Sutter and I'm not advocating a trade for Staal. Did you see where I criticized Sutter for being inconsistent and not being a good playmaker? Not sure how that constitutes trying to pump him up.

Merely pointing out that you undervalued him and Bolland by ignoring their leadership and defensive skills while projecting what you think a favorite of yours like Jeffrey might do. Yes, I stated Jeffrey would never be a shutdown center. I also said he wouldn't be a consistent point producer. Keep in mind, you havce him on the 3rd line where he'll be playing with weak wings and not getting PP time, just like Jordan Staal. So are you saying you think he will be a shutdown center and a consistent point producer?
I am being real because there is no way to gauge intangibles, only point production. You act as if Sutter or Bolland can step into any lineup in the NHL and be shutdown pivots. We have no idea how their intangibles will translate to the Pens system. So I am gauging how Staal's lost point production can be replaced with Jeffrey and a top winger.

And yes, I believe Jeffrey can be a very good checking line pivot who puts up 30-35 points. That is exactly why he was drafted, and exactly where his strengths lie, not being miscast as a wing. It isn't unreasonable to expect that given all I have seen of Jeffrey, which I am willing to bet is quite a bit more than you.

That is exactly why I find your posts to be a little hypocritical.

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05-26-2012, 01:51 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Because this idea of Jeffrey being able to step in and get 30-35 points immediately is hopeful speculation. Quit talking down to everyone. The Pens haven't done anything the last three years with Staal.
Right because suggesting a talented kid like Jeffrey has the potential to be a solution as the Pens third pivot is talking down to people.

Sorry that I can't be accountable for your lack of reading comprehension

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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Who is offering you a legit top 6 winger for Staal and what type of package do you have in mind? Staal+ for Sharp? If you attempt to claim the + should go the other way then no deal. Sharp is signed at a reasonable cap hit for a long time whereas Staal is a pending UFA. You have to realize any team getting Staal only has him locked up for this next year so they're not going to give you any top 6 winger that meets your criteria (since it's clear you'll probably bemoan any option as A) too expensive, B) too old, or C) not clearly proven to be better than Staal.
I couldn't care less about the Hawks or if Shero traded with them.

Teams always come out of nowhere to bid on players that no one ever speculated about. I'm quite sure that Shero will get the deal he wants or go with option C as I said before hand.

There are worse things than having Staal for another year.

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05-26-2012, 01:53 PM
  #37
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I just hate all these discussions where it ends up being...Staal has one year left. Come on, logically, all GMs would talk it over with him/his agent before trading.

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05-26-2012, 01:58 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SinfulCobraZ View Post
I just hate all these discussions where it ends up being...Staal has one year left. Come on, logically, all GMs would talk it over with hi/his agent before trading.
Don't let hfboard posters get to you. Jordan Staal has huge value, and if he were ever put on the market, he would get a kings ransom. His value is huge. Especially considering how many teams are desperate for a 1c, and how highly he is thought of around the league. I personally have him pegged as a 70 point, Selke caliber center.

I'd happily make a deal around Edler for Staal. I'd like to broaden it a bit, and try to pry Tangradi away from you guys as well. But the point is, Staal has value. Lots of value.

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05-26-2012, 02:12 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Alright. Kennedy, Bennett, and a 2012 1st for Skinner. It will possibly make the Canes a better team next year, because you simply have no idea how Kennedy will perform for the Canes.
The point
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Your head.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
This is rich. I can't reasonably predict that Staal would have a bigger impact next year than Kulemin/Sutter based on their respective performances last year, but you have no problem stating that these to-be-determined assets will make the Pens better in the future.
I never said you couldn't predict Staal would have a bigger impact than Kulemin/Sutter. I said you couldn't predict it as a sure thing, which you've done multiple times. And yes, have the to-be-determined assets will make the Penguins better, because the two scenarios in the future are "Have assets for the Jordan Staal trade" or "Have nothing, not even Staal". Having assets > not having anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No. Staal would improve the Pens' chances, because he's a much better player than any of the others listed.

Greater Cup chance with Staal, then possible UFA > lesser Cup chance plus mediocre future depth. Deal with it.
Again, you're making it sound like Staal is integral to your Cup chances when you've already said he wasn't. Make up your mind.

Having Crosby/Malkin/Bolland (or Sutter. Or having Kulemin on the wing. Or Schenn on defense. Or any combination of the rest) for 4+ years of Cup contention > having Crosby/Malkin/Staal down the middle for 1 year of Cup contention. Deal with it.

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05-26-2012, 02:29 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I never said you couldn't predict Staal would have a bigger impact than Kulemin/Sutter. I said you couldn't predict it as a sure thing, which you've done multiple times. And yes, have the to-be-determined assets will make the Penguins better, because the two scenarios in the future are "Have assets for the Jordan Staal trade" or "Have nothing, not even Staal". Having assets > not having anything.

Having Crosby/Malkin/Bolland (or Sutter. Or having Kulemin on the wing. Or Schenn on defense. Or any combination of the rest) for 4+ years of Cup contention > having Crosby/Malkin/Staal down the middle for 1 year of Cup contention. Deal with it.
So we should dump him now for anything at all instead of keeping him for the year, hoping to make a deep playoff run and convincing him so sign another long term deal?

This whole having assets > not having anything argument is stupid. Would you rather have 1 year of Gretzky and lose him for nothing for 10 years of Kris Beech? I'll take the 1 year of Gretzky and a great shot at doing something that season.

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05-26-2012, 02:32 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
And yes, have the to-be-determined assets will make the Penguins better, because the two scenarios in the future are "Have assets for the Jordan Staal trade" or "Have nothing, not even Staal". Having assets > not having anything.

Again, you're making it sound like Staal is integral to your Cup chances when you've already said he wasn't. Make up your mind.

Having Crosby/Malkin/Bolland (or Sutter. Or having Kulemin on the wing. Or Schenn on defense. Or any combination of the rest) for 4+ years of Cup contention > having Crosby/Malkin/Staal down the middle for 1 year of Cup contention. Deal with it.
He's stuck in some fantasy land that having the best player available for 1 year is somehow infinitely better than having several quality players for 3-4+ years.

Depth wins. Having 4 studs up front yet giving them crappy linemates hasn't really been working now has it? We hit the finals twice, and got lucky once. And we've done **** since.

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05-26-2012, 02:44 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
So we should dump him now for anything at all instead of keeping him for the year, hoping to make a deep playoff run and convincing him so sign another long term deal?

This whole having assets > not having anything argument is stupid. Would you rather have 1 year of Gretzky and lose him for nothing for 10 years of Kris Beech? I'll take the 1 year of Gretzky and a great shot at doing something that season.
This is on the premise that Shero knows he can't extend Staal. If he knows that, it's his duty to acquire as many assets as possible for the team and look to the future.

Yes but thats not who we're talking about. We're not talking about Malkin or Crosby - two of the best players in the game. We're talking about Staal... someone who's young and good, but he's not yet dominate. Our cup chances do not depend on Staal being the best possible. They depend on Crosby/Malkin/Letang/MAF being the best. Staals role on the Pens is replaceable.

If we were talking about Crsoby or Malkin then I'd agree completely. Try and make a run and see what happens. But our team without Staal is still more than capable of going deep.

And lastly we're not talking about Gretzky vs some 4th line plug. Every player/asset mentioned has been quality assets. Kulemin, Sutter, Schenn, Bozak, 5th, 8th, Bolland, Gunnarsson, Holzer, Ashton, Mcbain, etc. These are some of the names mentioned... other than the 2 prospects and picks, the rest are solid NHL players.

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05-26-2012, 02:45 PM
  #43
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Yes but thats not who we're talking about. We're not talking about Malkin or Crosby - two of the best players in the game. We're talking about Staal... someone who's young and good, but he's not yet dominate. Our cup chances do not depend on Staal being the best possible. They depend on Crosby/Malkin/Letang/MAF being the best. Staals role on the Pens is replaceable.

If we were talking about Crsoby or Malkin then I'd agree completely. Try and make a run and see what happens. But our team without Staal is still more than capable of going deep.

And lastly we're not talking about Gretzky vs some 4th line plug. Every player/asset mentioned has been quality assets. Kulemin, Sutter, Schenn, Bozak, 5th, 8th, Bolland, Gunnarsson, Holzer, Ashton, Mcbain, etc. These are some of the names mentioned... other than the 2 prospects and picks, the rest are solid NHL players.
thats not my point. Let me reiterate it is not a valid argument because there are situations where it can be not true. How valuable Staal really is, is subjective.


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This is on the premise that Shero knows he can't extend Staal. If he knows that, it's his duty to acquire as many assets as possible for the team and look to the future.
there have been a million offers and a million premises. There is no general rule. If thats not what you were talking about thats fine. I'm just stating my opinion on the whole, dump him for anything before you lose him for nothing argument.

Also, situations change on a daily basis. If he doesn't want to resign now, a cup run could easily change that.

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05-26-2012, 03:04 PM
  #44
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So we should dump him now for anything at all instead of keeping him for the year, hoping to make a deep playoff run and convincing him so sign another long term deal?
If you followed this at all, the whole premise was that he'd rather keep Staal for 1 year, then let him hit free agency rather than take anything less than an overpayment. If Shero believes he can re-sign Staal, he'll never put him up for trade and there's no "Assets or Staal" choice.

The Penguins can still contend for the Cup next year, with or without Staal. They can contend for the Cup, with or without Staal, for the next [X] years, in so long as they keep Crosby/Malkin. Next year isn't a "do or die" situation where the window is closing.

And I love that valuable players from other teams become "anything at all" whenever it fits the argument. Individually, are they as valuable as Staal? Probably not. When you take 3-4 of those pieces though, their value is greater, arguably greater than Staal's.

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05-26-2012, 03:13 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
If you followed this at all, the whole premise was that he'd rather keep Staal for 1 year, then let him hit free agency rather than take anything less than an overpayment. If Shero believes he can re-sign Staal, he'll never put him up for trade and there's no "Assets or Staal" choice.

The Penguins can still contend for the Cup next year, with or without Staal. They can contend for the Cup, with or without Staal, for the next [X] years, in so long as they keep Crosby/Malkin. Next year isn't a "do or die" situation where the window is closing.

And I love that valuable players from other teams become "anything at all" whenever it fits the argument. Individually, are they as valuable as Staal? Probably not. When you take 3-4 of those pieces though, their value is greater, arguably greater than Staal's.

just so you know...it was you that started this "anything">"nothing" debate
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
the two scenarios in the future are "Have assets for the Jordan Staal trade" or "Have nothing, not even Staal". Having assets > not having anything.

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05-26-2012, 03:19 PM
  #46
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And a Selke nominated centre is more appealing than a bunch of pieces of equal value. Quality > Quantity.

Would Yzerman deal Stamkos for "pieces" ? Unless 50+ goal scorers are a common commodity, then he'd keep him. Same thinking applies to Staal. There aren't many, if any, players like Staal up for trade.

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05-26-2012, 03:20 PM
  #47
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just so you know...it was you that started this "anything">"nothing" debate
The debate has been going on for the past 5 topics. I started nothing.

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And a Selke nominated centre is more appealing than a bunch of pieces of equal value. Quality > Quantity.

Would Yzerman deal Stamkos for "pieces" ? Unless 50+ goal scorers are a common commodity, then he'd keep him. Same thinking applies to Staal. There aren't many, if any, players like Staal up for trade.
If Stamkos's contract was about to expire and Yzerman believed he couldn't re-sign him (for whatever reason), then yes, he'd deal Stamkos for "pieces".

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05-26-2012, 03:21 PM
  #48
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The debate has been going on for the past 5 topics. I started nothing.
"Participating" would have been a better. Not wise to discredit a premise you are using in your own argument. Just a bit of healthy advice.

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05-26-2012, 03:24 PM
  #49
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How about Saad + Leddy for Staal + Martin

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05-26-2012, 03:24 PM
  #50
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McGuire doesn’t see Sidney Crosby or Jordan Staal getting moved. He called it pure speculation that Evgeni Malkin could get traded but he believes that of the three Malkin would go first.

......

The NBC analyst doesn’t believe Jordan Staal is going anywhere, though it’s possible the Staal brothers hold out hope of playing together some day. He doesn’t see that happening in Pittsburgh or New York, but perhaps that could happen in Carolina.

McGuire doesn’t believe Toronto has much hope of landing a Malkin or Staal. He doesn’t believe the Leafs have the prospects Pittsburgh would want. He called the organization “asset poor.”

McGuire says that he understands the Toronto AHL team is having success but that doesn’t equate to NHL success, that they may have one strong player or so. Brian Burke will be entering his fifth year but still doesn’t have much to work with.



http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/John-...uire/150/44620
As random host on the Fan mentioned after Pompeani went off the air, McGuire has a hard on for Staal. He has no other basis for what he said other than that.

If Staal must go I do think Carolina could work. Some interesting possibilities there.

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