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Old
05-26-2012, 03:25 PM
  #51
Blueline Bomber
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
"Participating" would have been a better. Not wise to discredit a premise you are using in your own argument. Just a bit of healthy advice.
I'm not discrediting. Nowhere in the past 5 topics did I say the Penguins should take whatever offer they could for Staal (or "anything at all"). I've advocated trading Staal for valuable pieces from other teams if Shero believes he can't re-sign Staal, since having those pieces is better than letting Staal walk for nothing.

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Old
05-26-2012, 03:29 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
And a Selke nominated centre is more appealing than a bunch of pieces of equal value. Quality > Quantity.

Would Yzerman deal Stamkos for "pieces" ? Unless 50+ goal scorers are a common commodity, then he'd keep him. Same thinking applies to Staal. There aren't many, if any, players like Staal up for trade.
We're not talking about Stamkos/Crsoby/Malkin. Those types of players are those you build around, and whom you can almost never get fair value for. Staal isn't in same category and Shero can easily get value for him should he choose to move him.

We already have quality in Malkin/Crosby/Neal/Letang/MAF/Staal. Losing Staal for several pieces isn't the end of the world.

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05-26-2012, 03:41 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
If Stamkos's contract was about to expire and Yzerman believed he couldn't re-sign him (for whatever reason), then yes, he'd deal Stamkos for "pieces".
Yup, and there is no definitive indication of Staal not wanting to resign.

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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
We're not talking about Stamkos/Crsoby/Malkin. Those types of players are those you build around, and whom you can almost never get fair value for. Staal isn't in same category and Shero can easily get value for him should he choose to move him.
True, we're talking about a player that has -according to reports - generated interest from numerous teams. So it's not absurd to think that a GM will overpay for him.

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We already have quality in Malkin/Crosby/Neal/Letang/MAF/Staal. Losing Staal for several pieces isn't the end of the world.
It wouldn't be the end, but it would be really stupid. Shero will either get an offer that blows him away or he'll just keep him. No point in trading him for fair value.

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05-26-2012, 04:27 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
No point in trading him for fair value.
And if he knows he can't sign him, there's no point in allowing him to walk for free.

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Old
05-26-2012, 04:29 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Yup, and there is no definitive indication of Staal not wanting to resign.
And I've addressed that. Multiple times. The last time was about 10 posts ago, in fact. If Shero believes he can re-sign Staal, he won't put Staal up for trade, so there's no "Staal or Assets" choice.

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Old
05-26-2012, 04:43 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SIDGENO8771 View Post
How about Saad + Leddy for Staal + Martin
NO! I hope this was a joke. I would think Staal alone nets more than Saad + Leddy

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05-26-2012, 04:48 PM
  #57
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As much as I disagree with some of what Blueline Bomber is saying, I'd be okay with a package of Sutter, 8th overall and McBain for Staal and Martin. My only real complaint is that we don't need a McBain type of defenseman, so I'd prefer an equivalent prospect at a different position.

We'd gain roughly 5 million in cap
space, take only a step down at 3LC, have a solid piece at 8th overall and another quality asset. Heck, we could theoretically move our late 1st for a winger/defenseman solution.

I personally prefer other offers but I wouldn't be upset if that was the return.

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Old
05-26-2012, 05:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Richards had to be traded due to "extra-curricular activities", and was 3 years older than Staal when he was dealt. People (willingly) forget how young Staal is, and how much that factors in...he was the same age this past season as Richards was in his breakout '07-'08 year.
Richards' "breakout season" was his third year in the League.

Staal has played 6 years in the League, and has produced similar numbers every year. I would be very surprised if he were able to repeat Mike Richards' feat.

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Richards also had plenty of plum opportunities on scoring lines and on the PP. GMs aren't ignorant of the fact that Staal has produced in spite of playing in situations that are less-than-conducive to production because of Crosby and Malkin.
But they also are not going to assume that, if given PP time, Staal will suddenly start producing on a level of Richards.

If Staal is good for 45 ES/SH points per year, than he has to produce around 20 PP points to be on the level of Richards. Which is absolutely ridiculous, considering that that would put him at the top of League PP producers.

Staal is not going to get the same value as Richards. I'm not suggesting that you'll have to settle for Jussi Jokinen and our 2013 2nd, but he is not getting a top prospect, a top 6 forward and a 1st round pick. Not with his resume and only 1 year remaining.

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Old
05-26-2012, 05:25 PM
  #59
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As a 'Canes fan, going from Sutter to Staal is too much of a lateral move to surrender both McBain and the 8th overall, as well as taking on the trainwreck that is Martin (and I don't think that Martin is that bad; Carolina just can't afford to allocate 5 million to a completely mediocre defenseman).

Staal: 45-50 points with little PP time, Selke caliber defense.

Sutter: 30-40 points with little PP time, Selke caliber defense.

Staal brings around 15-20 more ES points than Sutter, and equal SH/PP totals. Trading McBain and the 8th overall for 15-20 more ES points while taking taking on Martin is not a very good trade off.


Last edited by Finlandia WOAT: 05-26-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old
05-26-2012, 05:29 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Captain Tripps View Post
Richards' "breakout season" was his third year in the League.

Staal has played 6 years in the League, and has produced similar numbers every year. I would be very surprised if he were able to repeat Mike Richards' feat.



But they also are not going to assume that, if given PP time, Staal will suddenly start producing on a level of Richards.

If Staal is good for 45 ES/SH points per year, than he has to produce around 20 PP points to be on the level of Richards. Which is absolutely ridiculous, considering that that would put him at the top of League PP producers.

Staal is not going to get the same value as Richards. I'm not suggesting that you'll have to settle for Jussi Jokinen and our 2013 2nd, but he is not getting a top prospect, a top 6 forward and a 1st round pick. Not with his resume and only 1 year remaining.
Staal just scored 38 ES points in 60 games, 43 ES and SH points in 60 games.

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Old
05-26-2012, 05:32 PM
  #61
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Staal just scored 38 ES points in 60 games, 43 ES and SH points in 60 games.
Let's see if he can do it over an 82 game season (and for the record, I'm not doubting that he can not).

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Old
05-26-2012, 05:39 PM
  #62
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I can't believe the heat Martin is taking. He's a really good player, had great corsi numbers again this season. The hate is unwarranted.

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05-26-2012, 05:47 PM
  #63
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I can't believe the heat Martin is taking. He's a really good player, had great corsi numbers again this season. The hate is unwarranted.
He didn't have a great year but he is taking too much hate, hfboards has a very 'what have you done for me lately' attitude and we're definitely not fond of soft players.

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05-26-2012, 06:02 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Right because suggesting a talented kid like Jeffrey has the potential to be a solution as the Pens third pivot is talking down to people.

Sorry that I can't be accountable for your lack of reading comprehension



I couldn't care less about the Hawks or if Shero traded with them.

Teams always come out of nowhere to bid on players that no one ever speculated about. I'm quite sure that Shero will get the deal he wants or go with option C as I said before hand.

There are worse things than having Staal for another year.
Exactly what I mean about talking down to people. You can sit around waiting for a top line winger that fits your criteria to be made available but that is probably not going to happen.

For the record, Saad instantly becomes your top offensive prospect if acquired.

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05-26-2012, 06:07 PM
  #65
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Exactly what I mean about talking down to people. You can sit around waiting for a top line winger that fits your criteria to be made available but that is probably not going to happen.

For the record, Saad instantly becomes your top offensive prospect if acquired.
Well obviously.

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05-26-2012, 06:12 PM
  #66
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For the record, Saad instantly becomes your top offensive prospect if acquired.
it's also ligther in a dark room if you light a match. imo

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Old
05-26-2012, 06:17 PM
  #67
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Well obviously.
So why is he considered some garbage throw in? He's a big time top six potential Winger, exactly what the Pens did. Still waiting for Tangradi to put it together? Remember he actually got called up to play in two playoff games for the Hawks this year as a 19 year old who played in Juniors all year. If Saad becomes the piece he can be and excels playing next to Crosby/Malkin (look what it did for Neal) then Bolland + Saad + 18th becomes a major win for the Penguins.

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05-26-2012, 06:19 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
So why is he considered some garbage throw in? He's a big time top six potential Winger, exactly what the Pens did. Still waiting for Tangradi to put it together? Remember he actually got called up to play in two playoff games for the Hawks this year as a 19 year old who played in Juniors all year. If Saad becomes the piece he can be and excels playing next to Crosby/Malkin (look what it did for Neal) then Bolland + Saad + 18th becomes a major win for the Penguins.
Who is considering him a garbage throw in? Pens don't have any offensive prospect depth so it's not a huge thing to be the Pens top forward prospect right now.

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05-26-2012, 06:20 PM
  #69
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I can't believe the heat Martin is taking. He's a really good player, had great corsi numbers again this season. The hate is unwarranted.
I believe a Flyers fan described Matt Carle as a guy that advanced stats guys love and everybody else hates. You can probably say the same for Paul Martin. The advanced numbers usually say he's good, but he doesn't pass the eye test to a lot of the fans. He's soft, can move/lug the puck but overall is pretty bad offensively and made too many mental mistakes last season. I do think he gets too much hate but that's because he's the type of player you only notice when he screws up. You don't notice him when he's on his game because he doesn't do anything flashy in terms of scoring or big hits.

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05-26-2012, 06:29 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Exactly what I mean about talking down to people. You can sit around waiting for a top line winger that fits your criteria to be made available but that is probably not going to happen.

For the record, Saad instantly becomes your top offensive prospect if acquired.
If we move Staal, we need to better insulate Sid/Geno with talent. Some of us don't want to dilute the return in a Staal trade with a 3C coming back when we may very well have the answer in our system.

No one's talking down to you. Pens fans are going to demand a lot. If you don't like it, it's cool to disagree.

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Old
05-26-2012, 07:19 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Exactly what I mean about talking down to people. You can sit around waiting for a top line winger that fits your criteria to be made available but that is probably not going to happen.

For the record, Saad instantly becomes your top offensive prospect if acquired.
Great news. Thx.

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Old
05-26-2012, 08:21 PM
  #72
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Without getting too in depth, this is how I see a potential Staal deal and the value that Shero will look to receive: he will not be traded for a sum of parts that you're willing to see leave.

In other words, if you, as a fan, are willing to see, say, the 5th overall, Schenn, and Kulemin go - Shero will not move Staal for that. If Staal is moved, it will be for at least one asset that you just can't stand seeing leave.

It's just that simple because that's the feeling that our organization (read: not fans) will feel by losing Staal. He was Shero's first major move/pick as the GM of the Pens. He's getting something huge back.

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Old
05-26-2012, 08:29 PM
  #73
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God I hope Shero can get something fro Staal. Anything.

bad return >>>>>> losing Staal for free to Carolina

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Old
05-26-2012, 08:32 PM
  #74
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Staal's not integral, he simply makes the Pens a definitively better team than Kulemin or Sutter, which is why we'd like to keep him. We want to retain our very good players, even though we have a couple great ones. By the same token, we have no compulsion to deal Neal or Letang either.

I'm not sure what part of this is so difficult for you.
I don't think it's him initially suggesting Staal be dealt. YOU may very well want to keep him but that hasn't stopped major media outlets and writers with some inside information suggesting Staal might be dealt.

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Old
05-26-2012, 08:55 PM
  #75
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[QUOTE=



It wouldn't be the end, but it would be really stupid. Shero will either get an offer that blows him away or he'll just keep him. No point in trading him for fair value.[/QUOTE]

I dont understand why there is no point in trading him for fair value if it gets the pens a winger to play with Crosby. What is better, having Staal this year and possibly losing him for nothing, or trade him for fair value to get a winger to play with Crosby?

Unless Shero thinks its a good idea to sign Staal to the big money I assume he is going to want to be a 3rd line center. Its all about managing your assets. Not every trade does one team have to get a complete overpayment. We are not talking about a top 20 forward here.

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