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Old
05-26-2012, 11:57 PM
  #101
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by Dr Frasier Crane View Post
I know that I definitely overvalue him. I admit it. I'm interested in knowing what you think his value is. And I'm not being a dick. I want to see where people who don't think he's a future stud place him.
Good young 2nd line center.

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05-27-2012, 12:01 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Good young 2nd line center.
Okay, like who? And just to back my point of view up: Staal is already much better than your description. He's young, established, tough, and a big-time player with pedigree. You can say he hasn't been a 2nd line center before, but then I'd say that neither would Claude Giroux have been on our team.

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05-27-2012, 12:04 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Dr Frasier Crane View Post
Okay, like who? And just to back my point of view up: Staal is already much better than your description. He's young, established, tough, and a big-time player with pedigree. You can say he hasn't been a 2nd line center before, but then I'd say that neither would Claude Giroux have been on our team.
I'm confused. So Staal's as good as Claude Giroux?

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05-27-2012, 12:07 AM
  #104
Ugene Malkin
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Those are the smart options... however according to some fans it would be better to let him walk vs accepting anything less than an overpayment.
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Originally Posted by Dr Frasier Crane View Post
I wouldn't trade Staal alone for that package. Remember: we don't HAVE to trade him. And you're competing against 28 other teams.

This is the whole thing I don't think they get, and it's 29 other teams.

They are not forced to trade him, at all. He hasn't asked for it, and he has only said he wants to wait until July 1st to see what's out there. Guess that means the Pens should just throw away what could be a really great season and potential playoffs away with a 100% healthy team because Staal is in his final year. Guess they should just trade Crosby too?

They don't have to do anything but let it ride out and let the chips lie where they may. If he wants to sign here he will, but they won't trade him to go backwards either. I'd much rather get that final run and then readjust. Not readjust and take another 2/3 season to get back where they are now. A tweak.

Changes are sure to happen over the next few after that, and that's when losing Staal is more beneficial for this team, if it so happens to be that way. Players leave and new ones come in, it's inevitable.

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05-27-2012, 12:12 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I'm confused. So Staal's as good as Claude Giroux?
You certainly are.

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05-27-2012, 12:38 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I'm confused. So Staal's as good as Claude Giroux?
no. he is saying that even Giroux would have been the 3rd line center on the Penguins. which isn't true... giroux would have been on the wing, but play along.

this guy is overrating Staal. penguins either need to enter the season in Oct. with Staal resigned or staal on another team. you cannot afford to let Staal go for nothing. that would be a disaster.

I still like the bolland, Saad, 1st, + deal for Staal. it could help both teams.

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05-27-2012, 12:39 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
They don't have to do anything but let it ride out and let the chips lie where they may. If he wants to sign here he will, but they won't trade him to go backwards either. I'd much rather get that final run and then readjust. Not readjust and take another 2/3 season to get back where they are now. A tweak.
That final run? You mean like last year? Or a couple years ago against Montreal?

The whole idea is to win. One of the ways to do so is to collect the most and best assets possible. Moving Staal and getting a very high pick or other assets doesn't mean we're going backwards 2-3 years. The pick could take that long to play, however seeing how almost every proposal made includes more than a high pick. It's not like they'd be taking a massive step backwards. And that high pick could potentially turn into something great.

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05-27-2012, 01:20 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You've been saying that, in so many words, for 5 threads now.
You've been reading that, in so many words, for 5 threads now. It's not my fault you never seem to get the message that it's not what's being said. Again, just because you don't like the pieces in a package doesn't mean the package is "scraps". They're still valuable pieces.

The only people who are proposing "scrap" proposals are the ones like you, who believe offering Sutter/Bolland/Kulemin/whoever+ is the equivalent of "105th overall and Jason Krog".

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05-27-2012, 01:28 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by superhenderson13 View Post
no. he is saying that even Giroux would have been the 3rd line center on the Penguins. which isn't true... giroux would have been on the wing, but play along.

this guy is overrating Staal. penguins either need to enter the season in Oct. with Staal resigned or staal on another team. you cannot afford to let Staal go for nothing. that would be a disaster.

I still like the bolland, Saad, 1st, + deal for Staal. it could help both teams.
That deal sucks.

I'd rather go with Carolina. Sutter>Bolland and 8th overall > 18th overall. Saad doesnt make up the difference. Chicago has to add ALOT to that deal. In fact, the Pens cant honestly trade Staal to Chicago without getting at least one of Kane, Sharp, Seabrook in return.

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05-27-2012, 02:10 AM
  #110
Ugene Malkin
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
That final run? You mean like last year? Or a couple years ago against Montreal?

The whole idea is to win. One of the ways to do so is to collect the most and best assets possible. Moving Staal and getting a very high pick or other assets doesn't mean we're going backwards 2-3 years. The pick could take that long to play, however seeing how almost every proposal made includes more than a high pick. It's not like they'd be taking a massive step backwards. And that high pick could potentially turn into something great.
Those were not seasons where they were threaten with top core players leaving. Injuries happen, short on wingers do too. A bit of a difference, no?

Yes it's a big step backwards when talking about having Sutter as your 3rd line center and waiting on a 8th pick to emerge 2/3 or more years down the line over having, Staal. Sutter is not or ever will be Staal. That goes for Bolland too. If they were there would be no need for them to trade for or sign Staal.

Staal is the best asset for now. We are in the now.

Basically you are willing to throw away next season for a maybe down the road. Shero's shouldn't be looking past this upcoming season. Shero won't make a deal if it doesn't make the team better and none of these do, and he certainly can't tell if they do if they are picks that never happened yet, or players who haven't earned a regular shift in the NHL yet.

A trade that makes sense for the Pens for now and in the future is Jussi Jokinen, Brandon Sutter, 8th overall for Staal, Martin, 20?th overall.

I doubt a player who's not as proven and a unknown are gonna pry Staal from the team. You don't like it, you don't have too, but that's the value, and it's really not even a over payment. Some really don't understand Martins value and he just is overkill on a team with many like him.

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05-27-2012, 02:15 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Crosberry87 View Post
That deal sucks.

I'd rather go with Carolina. Sutter>Bolland and 8th overall > 18th overall. Saad doesnt make up the difference. Chicago has to add ALOT to that deal. In fact, the Pens cant honestly trade Staal to Chicago without getting at least one of Kane, Sharp, Seabrook in return.
Sutter > Bolland? Not so sure on that one.

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05-27-2012, 02:26 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by superhenderson13 View Post
no. he is saying that even Giroux would have been the 3rd line center on the Penguins. which isn't true... giroux would have been on the wing, but play along.
No, that's not what he said. He's saying Giroux wouldn't have been a first or second line center, which is the same thing you're saying. He would've been converted to wing.

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05-27-2012, 02:31 AM
  #113
Ugene Malkin
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
No, that's not what he said. He's saying Giroux wouldn't have been a first or second line center, which is the same thing you're saying. He would've been converted to wing.
So was Staal his first year, and he ended up on the third C, there's no telling that Giroux wouldn't have fallowed the same fate with who they had on the team at that particular time.

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05-27-2012, 02:48 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
So was Staal his first year, and he ended up on the third C, there's no telling that Giroux wouldn't have fallowed the same fate with who they had on the team at that particular time.
Yeah, he started out on the 4th line, and worked his way up to playing Malkin's wing. Then they decided they didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket and they all got their own lines the following year, aside from the odd Crosby-Malkin shift here and there and on the powerplay. I'm not sure what would've happened with Giroux; I think his game, like Staal's is much better suited to be played as a center.

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05-27-2012, 03:46 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by superhenderson13 View Post
no. he is saying that even Giroux would have been the 3rd line center on the Penguins. which isn't true... giroux would have been on the wing, but play along.

this guy is overrating Staal. penguins either need to enter the season in Oct. with Staal resigned or staal on another team. you cannot afford to let Staal go for nothing. that would be a disaster.

I still like the bolland, Saad, 1st, + deal for Staal. it could help both teams.
People assume a lot of guys would be "playing wing" if they were on the Pens. Guess what, if that was the solution, Staal wouldn't be going anywhere...now would he?

I like the Bolland, Saad + 1st deal if the Hawks take Paul Martin, Eric Tangradi, and Craig Adams in the deal as well, Pens will gladly take Stalberg also.

Kunitz, Malkin, Neal
Stalberg, Crosby, Dupuis
Cooke, Bolland, Kennedy
Bickell, Vitale, Veilleux

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05-27-2012, 04:05 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
People assume a lot of guys would be "playing wing" if they were on the Pens. Guess what, if that was the solution, Staal wouldn't be going anywhere...now would he?

I like the Bolland, Saad + 1st deal if the Hawks take Paul Martin, Eric Tangradi, and Craig Adams in the deal as well, Pens will gladly take Stalberg also.

Kunitz, Malkin, Neal
Stalberg, Crosby, Dupuis
Cooke, Bolland, Kennedy
Bickell, Vitale, Veilleux
Why Tangradi? And are you just including Adams because he's one of Bylsma's favorites? There's no sense in dealing guys like Tangradi or Adams just to toss them in a deal, it's not like they're albatross contracts or something. It would be a different story if they were make or break pieces that had to be in it to get something done. As if the situation would ever arise where the other GM says "Either throw in Craig Adams or the deal is off!"

The only point of dealing a guy like Adams would be to make space for Tangradi or someone like him.

I like Keven Veilleux, he's a very interesting player. 6'5, 220 lbs, slick hands and a mean streak, willing to drop the gloves. The problem is that he's never healthy. Between 2007 and now, he's played a little more than the equivalent of 2 full NHL seasons (165 games).

I really wish he could manage to stay healthy, his skill and the more aggressive style he started playing the last couple of years would be fun to watch in the bottom six, if nothing else. But at this point, I wouldn't be pencilling him into any projected line ups.

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05-27-2012, 04:19 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Yes it's a big step backwards when talking about having Sutter as your 3rd line center and waiting on a 8th pick to emerge 2/3 or more years down the line over having, Staal. Sutter is not or ever will be Staal. That goes for Bolland too. If they were there would be no need for them to trade for or sign Staal.

Staal is the best asset for now. We are in the now.

Basically you are willing to throw away next season for a maybe down the road. Shero's shouldn't be looking past this upcoming season. Shero won't make a deal if it doesn't make the team better and none of these do, and he certainly can't tell if they do if they are picks that never happened yet, or players who haven't earned a regular shift in the NHL yet.

A trade that makes sense for the Pens for now and in the future is Jussi Jokinen, Brandon Sutter, 8th overall for Staal, Martin, 20?th overall.
Sutter isn't Staal's equal. However neither is the drop between them that big (at least defensively). Moving Staal for a high pick, 3c and another piece (say 2nd line winger) doesn't make them a worse team. It makes them a different team.

Somehow this deal (Jokinen, Sutter, 8th for Staal, Martin & 22nd) is sooo much better than some of the others posted? Really?

Staal isn't a piece that's the difference between a cup run or bowing out in the first round. Those pieces would be Malkin, Crosby, Neal, Letang and MAF. Our playoff hopes live and die with those 5 (and you could even drop Neal from the list). So no moving Staal for a high pick and other assets isn't throwing away next season, or the one after that. Go back and look at some of the trades proposed. They both help the team now and in the future. No one's proposing that Shero trade Staal for futures, and other than Staal for the Oilers 1st have I seen any deals that is all for futures.

Staal is a great piece to have, but he's also very replaceable. There's numerous free agent centers who are very capable in a shutdown role. They don't have Staal's offense, however they can certainly fill his defensive role.

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05-27-2012, 05:40 AM
  #118
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I'm for trading Staal in the right deal. Not sure what exactly that is at the moment. I just don't think you can let such a core guy get away and get nothing for him. I don't expect that to happen. I think Shero will resolve it before next season and he will either be re-signed in the best case scenario or traded for the best possible return in the other scenario.

Staal is important to our playoff chances though. He isn't as big a cog as Malkin and Crosby but we don't win the Cup in 09 without him either. We also may have been swept this year by the Flyers if it weren't for Jordan Staal. He was our best player in that series by far.

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05-27-2012, 10:54 AM
  #119
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I am being real because there is no way to gauge intangibles, only point production. You act as if Sutter or Bolland can step into any lineup in the NHL and be shutdown pivots. We have no idea how their intangibles will translate to the Pens system. So I am gauging how Staal's lost point production can be replaced with Jeffrey and a top winger.

And yes, I believe Jeffrey can be a very good checking line pivot who puts up 30-35 points. That is exactly why he was drafted, and exactly where his strengths lie, not being miscast as a wing. It isn't unreasonable to expect that given all I have seen of Jeffrey, which I am willing to bet is quite a bit more than you.

That is exactly why I find your posts to be a little hypocritical.
Let's examine these bolded points. With shutdown C's like Sutter and Bolland it all comes down to points but if seemingly if anyone does that with J. Staal the Pens posting cavalry comes out the woodwork citing everything from intangibles to pro-rated stats. So I guess you're good with evaluating Staal's trade value purely on points? Yeah, thought not. Hypocritical indeed.

Noe, on to Sutter in the Pens system to your other point. Why would he have a tough time translating his skills into the Pens system? Because of the vaunted m2m scheme? No problem, he's played most of his NHL for Maurice who used the same defensive scheme and a very similar puck possession and cycling offensive scheme.

Sutter would also have much better wingers than who he played with last year in Nodl, Bowman or Dwyer. Nothing is guaranteed but that's a much better stated case than your how do intangibles translate. By the way, the whole lack of guarantee also applies to Jordan Staal you know.

Once again, since you missed it before apparently, there is no doubt you've seen more of Jeffrey. However, he is being transitioned from a scoring C and PP point to a checking role in the NHL so let's not act like he is a lock. Even in WSB as recently as this past year, he played the same role.

Note--I'm not advocating for this trade merely sticking to the original comment that your values are off.

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05-27-2012, 11:28 AM
  #120
Ugene Malkin
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Sutter isn't Staal's equal. However neither is the drop between them that big (at least defensively). Moving Staal for a high pick, 3c and another piece (say 2nd line winger) doesn't make them a worse team. It makes them a different team.

Somehow this deal (Jokinen, Sutter, 8th for Staal, Martin & 22nd) is sooo much better than some of the others posted? Really?

Staal isn't a piece that's the difference between a cup run or bowing out in the first round. Those pieces would be Malkin, Crosby, Neal, Letang and MAF. Our playoff hopes live and die with those 5 (and you could even drop Neal from the list). So no moving Staal for a high pick and other assets isn't throwing away next season, or the one after that. Go back and look at some of the trades proposed. They both help the team now and in the future. No one's proposing that Shero trade Staal for futures, and other than Staal for the Oilers 1st have I seen any deals that is all for futures.

Staal is a great piece to have, but he's also very replaceable. There's numerous free agent centers who are very capable in a shutdown role. They don't have Staal's offense, however they can certainly fill his defensive role.
Yes it does, and yes he is.

Now = Jokinen & Sutter, plus the room for shoring up the defense with both prospects coming up and an addition of a vet stay at home type with Martin being sent the other way.

Future = Sutter & 8th pick prospect, plus additions of our own defensive prospects moving up.

You saying Staal is very replaceable isn't helping your cause, it tells me you undervalue what he's actually worth. He's not a 3rd line shut down center only, only forced upon him due to center depth.

If you start talking about him as a #1 lite/#2c then I might actually take you seriously. How many of those are available, and how many are that young, and finally, how much are they worth?

One of either Malkin or Crosby go down and the Pens still can go about business, but you take him away and insert Sutter, you now are looking for a #2 center if one of them are out for the season. There's so many reasons why Staal is irreplaceable. What good are more wingers if their center depth isn't there?

This is so much about people like you who take Crosby & Malkin being here for granted(spoiled) that you would overlook Staal as a top center in this league.

He's not easily replaceable, period.

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05-27-2012, 11:40 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Crosberry87 View Post
That deal sucks.

I'd rather go with Carolina. Sutter>Bolland and 8th overall > 18th overall. Saad doesnt make up the difference. Chicago has to add ALOT to that deal. In fact, the Pens cant honestly trade Staal to Chicago without getting at least one of Kane, Sharp, Seabrook in return.
It's actually a very good deal if you're familiar with the players involved. Clearly the 8th overall is better than the 18th but - and this is from a Canes fan - Sutter is not a clear > over Bolland. They're very close in terms of skill but I'd give Bolland the slight edge. In terms of contract and health, I'd give Sutter the nod. And Saad? He could well make up the difference. As far as getting Kane, Sharp, or Seabrook, in return for Staal it'd have to be Staal+, no way would Staal net any of them otherwise.

But if I'm Chicago, I don't make that original deal. Staal would be a very good addition but there are greater needs that could be addressed with that kind of package - in net and on D. That example alone is why the whole there are 29 other teams who'd interested simply isn't true. Interest has a ceiling depending on the price.


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05-27-2012, 11:47 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
The point
-
-
-
-
-
Your head.
I understand your point perfectly, and my example illustrates as much.

Not so fun when it's your team giving up a great young player for a lesser talent coming off a down year, based on a dubious "you simply have no idea how X will perform for your team", is it?

Quote:
I never said you couldn't predict Staal would have a bigger impact than Kulemin/Sutter. I said you couldn't predict it as a sure thing, which you've done multiple times. And yes, have the to-be-determined assets will make the Penguins better, because the two scenarios in the future are "Have assets for the Jordan Staal trade" or "Have nothing, not even Staal". Having assets > not having anything.
Like Kennedy not outperforming Skinner, it's a pretty safe bet based on history.

And "assets" don't simply make a team better, ipso facto. If Kulemin came over and kept performing to his current standard at his current cap hit, we would be a worse team because he'd be eating up money that could be put to better use in FA.

Quote:
Again, you're making it sound like Staal is integral to your Cup chances when you've already said he wasn't. Make up your mind.
The dynasty Oilers had Gretzky and Messier. Would they have had a great chance to win Cups based on those two alone? Of course. This does not mean that the Oilers wouldn't want to retain the likes of Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Fuhr, etc., because even though a team has a good chance to win with 2 fantastic players, it has a better chance to win with a great supporting cast.

This is a very basic concept.

Quote:
Having Crosby/Malkin/Bolland (or Sutter. Or having Kulemin on the wing. Or Schenn on defense. Or any combination of the rest) for 4+ years of Cup contention > having Crosby/Malkin/Staal down the middle for 1 year of Cup contention. Deal with it.
Nah. Because they're players coming off down years, their cap hits are often exceeding their play, and they don't currently provide anything that can't be acquired in FA with the same money.

See, you can find 7 goal scorers for 2.3 mil per in FA, and you can find inconsistent physical defensemen for 3.6 mil per in FA too.

Know what you can't find in FA? A huge playoff-proven center with elite defense and who produced at a 65 point pace last year.

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Originally Posted by Captain Tripps View Post
Richards' "breakout season" was his third year in the League.

Staal has played 6 years in the League, and has produced similar numbers every year. I would be very surprised if he were able to repeat Mike Richards' feat.
I wouldn't. Players, regardless of when they started in the NHL, often break out in their early-to-mid-20s.

Staal's defensive game just happened to be refined enough to earn him an NHL spot right off the bat

Quote:
If Staal is good for 45 ES/SH points per year, than he has to produce around 20 PP points to be on the level of Richards. Which is absolutely ridiculous, considering that that would put him at the top of League PP producers.
That's a straw man. Staal was on pace for 50 ES points this year playing with Dupuis and Sullivan. 45 ES points is a low-ball, all things considered.

There's little reason to think Staal couldn't put up ~50 ES points and ~15 PP points in another situation.

Quote:
Staal is not going to get the same value as Richards. I'm not suggesting that you'll have to settle for Jussi Jokinen and our 2013 2nd, but he is not getting a top prospect, a top 6 forward and a 1st round pick. Not with his resume and only 1 year remaining.
If not, then it's an easy no.


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05-27-2012, 12:09 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Crosberry87 View Post
That deal sucks.

I'd rather go with Carolina. Sutter>Bolland and 8th overall > 18th overall. Saad doesnt make up the difference. Chicago has to add ALOT to that deal. In fact, the Pens cant honestly trade Staal to Chicago without getting at least one of Kane, Sharp, Seabrook in return.
No, probably but there will be no adding of saad, no.

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05-27-2012, 12:24 PM
  #124
Cullksinikers
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The Hawks might give you Bolland, Pirri/Morin, 2nd, Bickell, and Stalberg for Staal, Tangradi, and Adams.

No way I want to give up Saad, Sharp, Seabrook, or Kane. Each one of those subtractions creates a noticeable hole. Even losing Bolland sucks. Kruger isn't ready for a top-nine slot, in my opinion.

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05-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #125
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Saad-Toews-Kane
Sharp-Staal-Hossa
Carcillo-Kruger-Shaw
Tangradi-Adams-Mayers
Bollig

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