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Old
05-27-2012, 03:11 AM
  #126
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So.... Sekera was pitted against team's top lines...... can someone post how many minutes he played with the Sabres top line> (vanek-pominville early..... SEF line later).

Just because he gets better competition doesn't mean he was the shutdown dman. If the Goose line was out playing against team's lines with Sekera that doesn't mean it was because HE was the one Ruff was looking to. Sekera played excellent last year and was the team's option for shutting down oppositing fast/skilled players (Like Kessel/Ovechkin) because he is faster than Myers. Ehrhoff brought this team to another level and I really liked the Sulzer-Ehrhoff line. Hopefully Weber is the 7th and our dmen are Myers, Regher, Sulzer, Ehrhoff, Sekera, McNabb..... thats a nicelooking d core for 4-5 years (minus Regher)

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05-27-2012, 03:44 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
uh... Sekera played with the same forwards as Ehrhoff...



correction : You win games by scoring more goals then the other team. Sekera's GF/GA differential was better then Ehrhoff's. And while Myers was the best, he just didn't do it under the more difficult circumstances. Myers did it with the pampered minutes.

not sure what "captain" has to do with this debate (its not really a debate, it's me presenting the facts, and you looking rather silly to everyone)

by the way i watched Langway play and you should not be shocked because you are missing something your stats dont show....HEART, DRIVE, CLUTCH, CHEMISTRY, LEADERSHIP
Scott Stevens.....I dont care what is corsi is and it shouldnt matter I draw my conclusions based on ON ICE PLAY.

this is not MONEYBALL

you just looked at a list of Norris trophy winners didn't you if you are old enough to have watched Langway play... i'd be shocked (i never saw him play). if you are that old, and still have these amateur opinions about hockey... well... sorry there is no hope for you.

Chris Phillips, Anton Volchenkov, Tim Gleason, Braydon Coburn, Robyn Regehr, Vlasic, Lydman... i guess these guys aren't very good with their lack of offense...

Sekera scored 29 pts last year ... putting him in the same scoring range as McDonaugh and Girardi this year (i bet you aren't even aware how good those 2 are)

you might be surprised....
Sekera PTs per 60 ES = 0.64
Among other defensemen who see top QOC...that .60 is Better than/or close to:
Phaneuf : .72
Gorges : .63
Girardi : .54
Boychuk : .67
Suter : .74
Jaybo : .60
Gleason : .63
Michalek : .62
Lydman : .63

Ask Vancouver if Ehrhoff was their #1 defensemen last year. He led them in pts (50+), he got the most minutes, the most shifts... he would meet all your criteria for a #1 defensemen.... meanwhile, all intelligent hockey fans know that Hamhuis-Bieksa was their #1... not Ehrhoff or Edler.

Hamhuis-Bieksa is the top pair, Edler-Ehrhoff was the "offensive" 2nd pair.
dude you really dont know how to read stats....points per 60 minutes means squat, if you play less minutes it allows you to have less points but at then end of the day it does not matter points per 60 it matters points for how many minutes you actually play. if you play 10 minutes a game and scored 25 points for the season your points per 60 will seem like you are Bobby Orr. BUT if you take a player who plays 22 minuters per game and scores 48 points he will have a lower points per 60. You will end up with the wrong player. JAME you would take the 25 point player based on his points per 60?

In theory I understand what you are trying to say but players stats are based on TOI
this is what counts
GOALS ASSISTS WINS LOSES STANLEY CUPS



by the way i watched Langway play(i even had his rookie card) and you should not be shocked because you are missing something your stats dont show....HEART, DRIVE, CLUTCH, CHEMISTRY, LEADERSHIP, PHYSICAL PLAY
can you show me where those stats are?
Scott Stevens.....I dont care what is corsi is and it shouldnt matter I draw my conclusions based on ON ICE PLAY.

this is not MONEYBALL when they hand out the Norris trophy the ones I bolded count most.


I am not going to slander you like you do me, they are great tools but you cannot play moneyball with the game hockey, you will lose, there is more to a player, like the bolded. Everyone slagged on Satan because he scored goals when it did not count but Drury scores goals when it counts. Where is this stat?

EDIT, curious can you show me Brad Marsh´s stats? He made it 16 years in the NHL on heart alone.


Last edited by heartsabres*: 05-27-2012 at 04:13 AM.
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05-27-2012, 08:55 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Myers most common d partner was Leopold
Myers most common forward linemates:
Pommer, Leino, Stafford, Roy, Vanek,
Sekera's most common d partner was Regehr
Roy, Pommer, Leino, Stafford, Vanek
This is a product of those forwards getting the most ice time. Did Sekera play significantly more than Myers with the Goose line? If he was playing against other top lines then I would guess that would be a yes.

But again, if Sekera was so good and so valuable to this team, why do they falter without Myers and Ehrhoff but look fine without Sekera?

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05-27-2012, 09:21 AM
  #129
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Is it just me , or are some posters blurring the lines between ...

Sekera WAS (meaning this past season) our best defenseman...

And

Sekera IS our best defenseman...


Some seem to be arguing against the second statement, when that statement was never part of the original fact finding post by Jame.



Just weird....

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05-27-2012, 09:44 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
dude you really dont know how to read stats....points per 60 minutes means squat, if you play less minutes it allows you to have less points but at then end of the day it does not matter points per 60 it matters points for how many minutes you actually play. if you play 10 minutes a game and scored 25 points for the season your points per 60 will seem like you are Bobby Orr. BUT if you take a player who plays 22 minuters per game and scores 48 points he will have a lower points per 60. You will end up with the wrong player. JAME you would take the 25 point player based on his points per 60?

In theory I understand what you are trying to say but players stats are based on TOI
this is what counts
GOALS ASSISTS WINS LOSES STANLEY CUPS



by the way i watched Langway play(i even had his rookie card) and you should not be shocked because you are missing something your stats dont show....HEART, DRIVE, CLUTCH, CHEMISTRY, LEADERSHIP, PHYSICAL PLAY
can you show me where those stats are?
Scott Stevens.....I dont care what is corsi is and it shouldnt matter I draw my conclusions based on ON ICE PLAY.

this is not MONEYBALL when they hand out the Norris trophy the ones I bolded count most.


I am not going to slander you like you do me, they are great tools but you cannot play moneyball with the game hockey, you will lose, there is more to a player, like the bolded. Everyone slagged on Satan because he scored goals when it did not count but Drury scores goals when it counts. Where is this stat?

EDIT, curious can you show me Brad Marsh´s stats? He made it 16 years in the NHL on heart alone.
I don't think any of us disagree with you that there is more to a player than stats. However, the only tenuous argument I can string together from your posts is that you think Ehrhoff is better because he had more points than Sekera (stats, cough) and because he dropped the gloves this season once or twice.

However, you're not arguing what Jame is saying (or showing you), you're simply arguing around his arguments, and in some cases, deliberately contradicting statistics.

No, stats never tell the whole story, but when you look at them with a reasoned eye, they don't lie either.

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05-27-2012, 09:57 AM
  #131
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Did my eyes deceive me or was Rod Langway brought into this debate?

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05-27-2012, 10:04 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dma0034 View Post
So.... Sekera was pitted against team's top lines...... can someone post how many minutes he played with the Sabres top line> (vanek-pominville early..... SEF line later).

Just because he gets better competition doesn't mean he was the shutdown dman. If the Goose line was out playing against team's lines with Sekera that doesn't mean it was because HE was the one Ruff was looking to. Sekera played excellent last year and was the team's option for shutting down oppositing fast/skilled players (Like Kessel/Ovechkin) because he is faster than Myers. Ehrhoff brought this team to another level and I really liked the Sulzer-Ehrhoff line. Hopefully Weber is the 7th and our dmen are Myers, Regher, Sulzer, Ehrhoff, Sekera, McNabb..... thats a nicelooking d core for 4-5 years (minus Regher)
When Sekera played with Regehr they were our shutdown pairing. We started the season with Myers/Regehr in that role. Even had a stretch with Leo/Regehr in that role due to injuries.


Last edited by joshjull: 05-27-2012 at 10:10 AM.
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05-27-2012, 10:50 AM
  #133
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http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/1...too-literally/
http://www.hockeywilderness.com/2011...ed-destruction

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/n...i-ratings.html
Here is Jame, he has an Agenda for his Buffalo sabres blog
http://www.examiner.com/article/sabr...ers-defensemen



I could post 100 websites that say Corsi ratings are not used to determine how good a player is but just a tool.


Agenda?

By the way according to Corsi, San Jose was the best team in 2011. Can you explain that Jame? Did they go out in the first round? Did the win the presidents trophy? statsmonster!

I am done here, point proven, Corsi is a tool, it does not decide anything unless you dont care about the actual hockey game. Shaking my head


Last edited by heartsabres*: 05-27-2012 at 11:07 AM.
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05-27-2012, 10:58 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Is it just me , or are some posters blurring the lines between ...

Sekera WAS (meaning this past season) our best defenseman...

And

Sekera IS our best defenseman...


Some seem to be arguing against the second statement, when that statement was never part of the original fact finding post by Jame.



Just weird....
So let me get this clear, you would gladly trade away Myers for Sekera if Sekera was on another team? I guess you would throw in draft picks if you had to.

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05-27-2012, 11:15 AM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So let me get this clear, you would gladly trade away Myers for Sekera if Sekera was on another team? I guess you would throw in draft picks if you had to.
Putting words in other peoples mouths.

Also, Jame (And most of us) have agreed or stated that stats like Corsi or QoC et al are not the end all be all but should be taken in CONTEXT to get a clearer look at the big picture.

I wouldn't trade Myers or Ehrhoff for Sekera. But last season, and only judging by last season, not potential or past performance or anything else, last year Sekera was our best blueliner.

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05-27-2012, 11:32 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So let me get this clear, you would gladly trade away Myers for Sekera if Sekera was on another team? I guess you would throw in draft picks if you had to.
You're trying to change the argument now, it's about who played best last season, and it was sekera

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05-27-2012, 11:34 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
Putting words in other peoples mouths.

Also, Jame (And most of us) have agreed or stated that stats like Corsi or QoC et al are not the end all be all but should be taken in CONTEXT to get a clearer look at the big picture.

I wouldn't trade Myers or Ehrhoff for Sekera. But last season, and only judging by last season, not potential or past performance or anything else, last year Sekera was our best blueliner.
So the guy BOLDED sekera is and was I am imagining this and putting words in his mouth or I see the best defenceman doesn´t hold the most value.

Sekera WAS (meaning this past season) our best defenseman...

And

Sekera IS our best defenseman...

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05-27-2012, 11:34 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So let me get this clear, you would gladly trade away Myers for Sekera if Sekera was on another team? I guess you would throw in draft picks if you had to.
Nope ... Your not clear ... And judging by 90% of your posts since joining HFBoards, I don't know if you ever are. Or maybe 95% of the posters here look at the broad topic of hockey much differently than you.




Just weird ...

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05-27-2012, 11:38 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
So the guy BOLDED sekera is and was I am imagining this and putting words in his mouth or I see the best defenceman doesn´t hold the most value.

Sekera WAS (meaning this past season) our best defenseman...

And

Sekera IS our best defenseman...
I see where the misunderstanding is now.

He wasn't claiming Sekera is and was our best defenseman.

He was stating that some people are arguing "Sekera was our best defenseman" and that some people are arguing "Sekera is currently our best defenseman."

The claim he made was that Jame is arguing the former, not the latter. But if I'm reading that wrong he can feel free to correct me.

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05-27-2012, 11:43 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by BuiltTagonTough View Post
I see where the misunderstanding is now.

He wasn't claiming Sekera is and was our best defenseman.

He was stating that some people are arguing "Sekera was our best defenseman" and that some people are arguing "Sekera is currently our best defenseman."

The claim he made was that Jame is arguing the former, not the latter. But if I'm reading that wrong he can feel free to correct me.
Ya thats what Im seeing

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05-27-2012, 11:47 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Sekera WAS (meaning this past season) our best defenseman...

And

Sekera IS our best defenseman.
....
If Sekera WAS our best defenseman last season, the team would have suffered more when he was out than when Myers or Ehrhoff were out. No matter how you want to spin it, Myers and Ehrhoff are/were better and more valuable. Sekera played very well, but if he really played like our best defenseman, he would have been more important. Myers and Ehrhoff have more impact, therefore were better. It's not as complicated as you guys are trying to make it.

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05-27-2012, 12:34 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
If Sekera WAS our best defenseman last season, the team would have suffered more when he was out than when Myers or Ehrhoff were out. No matter how you want to spin it, Myers and Ehrhoff are/were better and more valuable. Sekera played very well, but if he really played like our best defenseman, he would have been more important. Myers and Ehrhoff have more impact, therefore were better. It's not as complicated as you guys are trying to make it.
I'm fairly sure when it was just Ehrhoff out the team had a winning record, not sure about Myers.

It was when they were both out that the team crumbled. Any team losing 2 of their top 3 defensemen is going to struggle, and the impact will be moreso than just losing one.

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05-27-2012, 12:38 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
Ya thats what Im seeing
BTT and Scarygood .... You get it....

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05-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/1...too-literally/
http://www.hockeywilderness.com/2011...ed-destruction

http://www.sportshoopla.com/forums/n...i-ratings.html
Here is Jame, he has an Agenda for his Buffalo sabres blog
http://www.examiner.com/article/sabr...ers-defensemen



I could post 100 websites that say Corsi ratings are not used to determine how good a player is but just a tool.


Agenda?

By the way according to Corsi, San Jose was the best team in 2011. Can you explain that Jame? Did they go out in the first round? Did the win the presidents trophy? statsmonster!

I am done here, point proven, Corsi is a tool, it does not decide anything unless you dont care about the actual hockey game. Shaking my head
yes it is.

what are tools used for?

ignoring all the "tools" for understanding performance is your choice

it's weird that you refuse to use the tools at your disposable...


Last edited by Jame: 05-27-2012 at 12:58 PM.
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05-27-2012, 12:54 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
If Sekera WAS our best defenseman last season, the team would have suffered more when he was out than when Myers or Ehrhoff were out. No matter how you want to spin it, Myers and Ehrhoff are/were better and more valuable. Sekera played very well, but if he really played like our best defenseman, he would have been more important. Myers and Ehrhoff have more impact, therefore were better. It's not as complicated as you guys are trying to make it.
Please see the team's record with and without Matt Ellis from 2008-2012.

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05-27-2012, 12:55 PM
  #146
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Has Mirtle done his advanced stat analysis yet? It was a month old this time last year and I can't seem to find his 2012 rankings...

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05-27-2012, 12:59 PM
  #147
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Please see the team's record with and without Matt Ellis from 2008-2012.
Matt Ellis is a God you hear me!? A God!


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05-27-2012, 01:01 PM
  #148
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Matt Ellis is a God you hear me!? A God!

Obviously
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05-27-2012, 01:07 PM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heartsabres View Post
dude you really dont know how to read stats....points per 60 minutes means squat, if you play less minutes it allows you to have less points but at then end of the day it does not matter points per 60 it matters points for how many minutes you actually play. if you play 10 minutes a game and scored 25 points for the season your points per 60 will seem like you are Bobby Orr. BUT if you take a player who plays 22 minuters per game and scores 48 points he will have a lower points per 60. You will end up with the wrong player. JAME you would take the 25 point player based on his points per 60?
again, i would look at the entire picture, and understand as much about the context of the statistics as possible... that's why i know what i am talking about

per 60 means a lot, its a very good indicator... the fact that every single stat that doesn't support your opinion "means squat" to you, is quite telling

good job using an example that makes no sense (25 pt/10 min per game defensemen). even if such anexample existed, try to remember how i've insisted that CONTEXT is critical when using advanced stats.



Quote:
In theory I understand what you are trying to say but players stats are based on TOI
this is what counts
GOALS ASSISTS WINS LOSES STANLEY CUPS
good point, well thought out... you got me



Quote:
by the way i watched Langway play(i even had his rookie card) and you should not be shocked because you are missing something your stats dont show....HEART, DRIVE, CLUTCH, CHEMISTRY, LEADERSHIP, PHYSICAL PLAY
can you show me where those stats are?
Scott Stevens.....I dont care what is corsi is and it shouldnt matter I draw my conclusions based on ON ICE PLAY.
make sure you stay inside the lines when drawing your conclusions

Quote:
this is not MONEYBALL when they hand out the Norris trophy the ones I bolded count most.
agred. points count too much in the Norris voting

Quote:
I am not going to slander you like you do me, they are great tools but you cannot play moneyball with the game hockey, you will lose, there is more to a player, like the bolded. Everyone slagged on Satan because he scored goals when it did not count but Drury scores goals when it counts. Where is this stat?
it's under Game Winning or Game Tying Goals... or you can look at goals by period, goals when trailing, goals when leading, etc...

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05-27-2012, 01:12 PM
  #150
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Obviously
Brilliant.

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