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Old
05-27-2012, 11:30 AM
  #126
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wow! tempting!

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05-27-2012, 11:34 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Cullksinikers View Post
The Hawks might give you Bolland, Pirri/Morin, 2nd, Bickell, and Stalberg for Staal, Tangradi, and Adams.

No way I want to give up Saad, Sharp, Seabrook, or Kane. Each one of those subtractions creates a noticeable hole. Even losing Bolland sucks. Kruger isn't ready for a top-nine slot, in my opinion.
Not a chance that happens. It significantly weakens the Pens lineup for next year and likely in the future.

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05-27-2012, 11:36 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Honour Over Glory View Post
People assume a lot of guys would be "playing wing" if they were on the Pens. Guess what, if that was the solution, Staal wouldn't be going anywhere...now would he?

I like the Bolland, Saad + 1st deal if the Hawks take Paul Martin, Eric Tangradi, and Craig Adams in the deal as well, Pens will gladly take Stalberg also.

Kunitz, Malkin, Neal
Stalberg, Crosby, Dupuis
Cooke, Bolland, Kennedy
Bickell, Vitale, Veilleux
got news for you. penguins tried Staal on the wing. didn't work. Giroux has played on the wing before. it worked.

not every center can play on the wing, but a lot are able to. Giroux is one of those and Staal isn't.

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05-27-2012, 11:41 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by superhenderson13 View Post
got news for you. penguins tried Staal on the wing. didn't work. Giroux has played on the wing before. it worked.

not every center can play on the wing, but a lot are able to. Giroux is one of those and Staal isn't.
It did work Staal's rookie year.

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05-27-2012, 11:44 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Yes it does, and yes he is.

Now = Jokinen & Sutter, plus the room for shoring up the defense with both prospects coming up and an addition of a vet stay at home type with Martin being sent the other way.

Future = Sutter & 8th pick prospect, plus additions of our own defensive prospects moving up.

You saying Staal is very replaceable isn't helping your cause, it tells me you undervalue what he's actually worth. He's not a 3rd line shut down center only, only forced upon him due to center depth.

If you start talking about him as a #1 lite/#2c then I might actually take you seriously. How many of those are available, and how many are that young, and finally, how much are they worth?

One of either Malkin or Crosby go down and the Pens still can go about business, but you take him away and insert Sutter, you now are looking for a #2 center if one of them are out for the season. There's so many reasons why Staal is irreplaceable. What good are more wingers if their center depth isn't there?

This is so much about people like you who take Crosby & Malkin being here for granted(spoiled) that you would overlook Staal as a top center in this league.

He's not easily replaceable, period.
I fully believe that if he was given more icetime with legit top 6 wingers that he could easily put up points as a #1 center. I wouldn't call him a #1 yet, but I think most agree that he's easily a #2, and young enough that there's still time to grow his offensive game (which has been getting better). But unless we trade one of Crosby or Malkin he's never going to get that chance. But that still doesn't mean he's invaluable to a cup run, or that his current role on the Pens is irreplaceable.

I agree completely with you that Staal has tons of value. But his role on the Pens doesn't equal his value. He's a 3c here with some crappy PP time and tons of PK time. That's not his fault that he's stuck behind 2 of the best centers in the game, but it is reality. We can find that in FA (Moore, Gaustad, Kelly, Stoll, etc) for 2-3.5m vs Staal's 5m+ that his next contract will fetch (if he's willing to re-sign).

Yes center depth is great, however when you're talking about depth for Crosby or Malkin, it doesn't really matter. In the regular season sure, but we need both of them to be healthy if we're going to go deep. Our team is built around having the best two centers in the game. Without one of them, Staal is nice to have, but we're still not winning the cup.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
And "assets" don't simply make a team better, ipso facto. If Kulemin came over and kept performing to his current standard at his current cap hit, we would be a worse team because he'd be eating up money that could be put to better use in FA.

Nah. Because they're players coming off down years, their cap hits are often exceeding their play, and they don't currently provide anything that can't be acquired in FA with the same money.

See, you can find 7 goal scorers for 2.3 mil per in FA, and you can find inconsistent physical defensemen for 3.6 mil per in FA too.
And if he potted 30 as he did the year before (with a cap hit of ~2.5)? I doubt he'll do that regularly, but it's clearly not impossible for him either. He's also young and has size (6,1 - 220) and is very sound defensively. As for Schenn, sure he's not Pronger back there, but as a physical defensive Dman who's still very young he's not bad. Not worth his 3.6, but not worthless either. His physicality is also something the Pens don't have outside of Orpik, and Engelland (who will never be more than a bottom pairing D). There's some options in FA that we could get instead for around the same money. I wouldn't say they're better, just different. Schenn's age means he has potential to still get better.

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The dynasty Oilers had Gretzky and Messier. Would they have had a great chance to win Cups based on those two alone? Of course. This does not mean that the Oilers wouldn't want to retain the likes of Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Fuhr, etc., because even though a team has a good chance to win with 2 fantastic players, it has a better chance to win with a great supporting cast.

This is a very basic concept.
Actually I think this point works against you. You're saying depth wins, then point to the Oilers and say they needed those two wingers... The Pens have a good supporting cast even if you remove Staal. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, MAF. Remove Staal and replace him with Sutter and Jokinen, or Kulemin and Schenn, and add in Kunitz and that's not a bad lineup, and one that's more evenly balanced than just having the big 3 down the middle with 2 legit top 6 wingers.

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05-27-2012, 11:46 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by superhenderson13 View Post
got news for you. penguins tried Staal on the wing. didn't work. Giroux has played on the wing before. it worked.

not every center can play on the wing, but a lot are able to. Giroux is one of those and Staal isn't.


29 goals and 42 points playing mostly wing as an 18 year old = doesn't work.

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05-27-2012, 11:54 AM
  #132
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For the record, I'd do Jokinen, Sutter, 8th for Staal, Martin, 20th.

Of course, I was willing to do McBain, Sutter, 8th for just Staal and Martin, so the Jokinen deal actually works more in Carolina's favor.

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05-27-2012, 11:55 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
And a Selke nominated centre is more appealing than a bunch of pieces of equal value. Quality > Quantity.

Would Yzerman deal Stamkos for "pieces" ? Unless 50+ goal scorers are a common commodity, then he'd keep him. Same thinking applies to Staal. There aren't many, if any, players like Staal up for trade.
No, he wouldn't. If presented with a cap or related issue, he'd move Prince Vinny for pieces and do everything in his power to keep Stamkos.

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05-27-2012, 11:56 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
For the record, I'd do Jokinen, Sutter, 8th for Staal, Martin, 20th.

Of course, I was willing to do McBain, Sutter, 8th for just Staal and Martin, so the Jokinen deal actually works more in Carolina's favor.
if you really think that would be the best offer of any team interested and Shero would pull the trigger on that, then...i don't even...

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05-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
And I've addressed that. Multiple times. The last time was about 10 posts ago, in fact. If Shero believes he can re-sign Staal, he won't put Staal up for trade, so there's no "Staal or Assets" choice.
I'm not entirely sure about that. Shero CAN resign Staal. The issue is the on ice value for whatever the price will be. If Staal wants 6.5M, several teams will give it to him. Push comes to shove, I think Shero will too. BUT, I think he's going to listen regardless to see if there's a return of assets (and future cap space) that positions his team better.

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05-27-2012, 11:59 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I can't believe the heat Martin is taking. He's a really good player, had great corsi numbers again this season. The hate is unwarranted.
Paul Martin would be exhibit A in any prosecution of the relevance of corsi numbers.

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05-27-2012, 12:02 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Paul Martin would be exhibit A in any prosecution of the relevance of corsi numbers.
yeah advanced stats are dumb. Look at baseball, those things didn't catch on. No one uses them.

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05-27-2012, 12:03 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Dr Frasier Crane View Post
It's my opinion that that will not be possible. Staal will either be re-signed this summer or traded. I don't see him playing our his current deal with us.
This is what I was just driving at. Shero CAN resign Staal, no matter what. It may take more than he wants, but, push comes to shove, and he'll hold his nose on the price, resign Staal, and deal with the consequences later. At the same time, I think Shero is going to listen to offers pretty much no matter what (unless Staal is willing to sign for like 5.5M). What he can resign Staal for (say 6M versus mid 6M or so) may factor into how willing he is to pull the trigger.

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05-27-2012, 12:04 PM
  #139
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I'm not entirely sure about that. Shero CAN resign Staal. The issue is the on ice value for whatever the price will be. If Staal wants 6.5M, several teams will give it to him. Push comes to shove, I think Shero will too. BUT, I think he's going to listen regardless to see if there's a return of assets (and future cap space) that positions his team better.
And that's the rub. As often as it's been stated that Shero would move Staal only for an overpayment, Staal's agent's job is to ensure his deal is an overpayment and he'll leverage the situation. Unless Staal is moved up to 2C or shifted to wing in the top 6, $6.M a huge overpayment for a 3C.
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yeah advanced stats are dumb. Look at baseball, those things didn't catch on. No one uses them.
Yeah, nobody uses OPS or WHIP routinely.

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05-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #140
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Not a chance that happens. It significantly weakens the Pens lineup for next year and likely in the future.
It also weakens the hawks lineup tremendously.

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05-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Honestly why even propose this? There have been MANY better proposals TOR for Staal alone, but for some reason everyone's gonna forget those (and from other teams) and agree to this terrible deal?

If TOR want's Staal it's 5th + Kuni +, and the Pens aren't adding.
THIS is how it will play out if there are discussions, and my thinking is that the '+' component from Shero's perspective will be a little more than Bozak, which is what I suspect Burke will hope is doable.

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05-27-2012, 12:07 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
And that's the rub. As often as it's been stated that Shero would move Staal only for an overpayment, Staal's agent's job is to ensure his deal is an overpayment and he'll leverage the situation. Unless Staal is moved up to 2C or shifted to wing in the top 6, $6.M a huge overpayment for a 3C.
its not a huge overpayment for a 50 point player who averages 20 minutes a night, is your #1 penalty killer, most defensively responsible forward, has 30 goal talent, and is 23.

Stop blanketting him at a 3C when he's clearly not a typical #3 center.



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Yeah, nobody uses OPS or WHIP routinely.
I hope that means you caught my sarcasm.

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05-27-2012, 12:08 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
yeah advanced stats are dumb. Look at baseball, those things didn't catch on. No one uses them.
Baseball it works well because it's batter vs. pitcher as individuals. It remains to be seen in a teammate driven sport whether advanced stats work as well as in baseball.

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05-27-2012, 12:08 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
It did work Staal's rookie year.
Yeah, but they'd never try him again on Malkin's wing . . .

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05-27-2012, 12:11 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by H a w k s View Post
Baseball it works well because it's batter vs. pitcher as individuals. It remains to be seen in a teammate driven sport whether advanced stats work as well as in baseball.
did I say CORSI was perfect or all these advanced stats are "all-telling?" No. Trust me, I've forgotten more about baseball statistics than you've ever known so save the lecture. My point is, a lot of people still don't accept simple things like OBP and FIP when even though they are not perfect, theyre clearly better than BA and ERA. Same goes here, these stats aren't perfect but theyre clearly better than alternative "eye tests" and such but just like in baseball, it'll take a long time for people to accept anything.

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05-27-2012, 12:11 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I understand your point perfectly, and my example illustrates as much.

Not so fun when it's your team giving up a great young player for a lesser talent coming off a down year, based on a dubious "you simply have no idea how X will perform for your team", is it?



Like Kennedy not outperforming Skinner, it's a pretty safe bet based on history.

And "assets" don't simply make a team better, ipso facto. If Kulemin came over and kept performing to his current standard at his current cap hit, we would be a worse team because he'd be eating up money that could be put to better use in FA.



The dynasty Oilers had Gretzky and Messier. Would they have had a great chance to win Cups based on those two alone? Of course. This does not mean that the Oilers wouldn't want to retain the likes of Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Fuhr, etc., because even though a team has a good chance to win with 2 fantastic players, it has a better chance to win with a great supporting cast.

This is a very basic concept.



Nah. Because they're players coming off down years, their cap hits are often exceeding their play, and they don't currently provide anything that can't be acquired in FA with the same money.

See, you can find 7 goal scorers for 2.3 mil per in FA, and you can find inconsistent physical defensemen for 3.6 mil per in FA too.

Know what you can't find in FA? A huge playoff-proven center with elite defense and who produced at a 65 point pace last year.



I wouldn't. Players, regardless of when they started in the NHL, often break out in their early-to-mid-20s.

Staal's defensive game just happened to be refined enough to earn him an NHL spot right off the bat



That's a straw man. Staal was on pace for 50 ES points this year playing with Dupuis and Sullivan. 45 ES points is a low-ball, all things considered.

There's little reason to think Staal couldn't put up ~50 ES points and ~15 PP points in another situation.



If not, then it's an easy no.
If Staal's stats get to be pro-rated Bolland's ought to be too. In 2010-2011 he was pro-rated for around 50 points. This year he was pro-rated for 40. He has the same issue as Staal in that our coach refuses to move him out of the third line center role because he's so good at it even though he could make for a good 2 Center. He put up 47 points in 2008-2009 and he has very excellent playoff stats (you call Staal a proven playoff warrior, but Bolland is as well. He has one more point in 24 less games.. isn't the big thing about Staal that he helps you win the Cup when the truth is in the playoffs throughout their career Bolland has played the same role as Staal has and done better at this point in their careers.

I'm not saying Bolland > Staal. Everything indicates that it'd be Bolland++ for Staal not the other way around. However, to act like Bolland can't come in and play the same role for the Penguins as Staal- a role in which he has excelled in at the highest stage as he helped bring Chicago its only Cup in the last 50 years is pure ignorance. Some Pittsburgh fans have concluded that a great third line center replacement + Top Winger Prospect

Here's what Hockeys Future had to say about Saad for those that don't like that he was a 2nd round pick a year ago..
"31. Brandon Saad-LW-Chicago Blackhawks. Height 6'2, Weight 211.
Brandon Saad plummeted to 43rd overall at the 2011 NHL Draft but was still able to make the Blackhawks' opening night roster with a revelatory training camp performance. He was dominant after returning to the OHL, where the versatile winger skated in all situations and was named the Saginaw Spirit's captain. He produced 1.73 points per game in an abbreviated junior season, amassing 34 goals, 42 assists in 44 games. Saad joined Team USA at the World Junior Championships, but struggled to produce along with the rest of the team against stiffer competition. At 6'1 and 202 pounds, Saad is strong on the puck and has a nose for the net. He has good speed and thinks the game well, allowing him to regularly find gaps in coverage in which to unleash his hard, accurate shot. In addition to two early regular season games, Saad also drew into Chicago's playoff line-up for two games after his junior season ended. He is all but assured to stick with the Blackhawks for the 2012-13 season."

So Saad addresses a major need for Pittsburgh to stay relevant (high upside winger prospect that can give them somebody to put next to Crosby or Malkin and be productive) who is NHL ready (or else why would he play in 2 playoff games and be considered "all but assured to stick with the Blackhawks for the 2012-13 season". And then throw in an additional mid-first round which will give Pittsburgh another big prospect for the system who will be able to come in and provide a cheap contract with potential for results as they lose depth due to re-signing Crosby/Malkin.

Keep in mind Bolland is signed for two years at a cheaper rate than Staal who is a pending UFA and will likely want a big payday and there is a very strong possibility will want a bigger role than being a 3C the rest of his career. Staal has a career high 50 points. You guys can't laud everyone else for speculations and then say that Staal is a 70 point first line center and for one year of him teams need to trade a package like the one that brought Richards in because you think Staal may be as good as him eventually. Richards was locked in forever at a good cap hit and possessed a much stronger and proven resume.


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05-27-2012, 12:13 PM
  #147
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And if he potted 30 as he did the year before (with a cap hit of ~2.5)? I doubt he'll do that regularly, but it's clearly not impossible for him either. He's also young and has size (6,1 - 220) and is very sound defensively. As for Schenn, sure he's not Pronger back there, but as a physical defensive Dman who's still very young he's not bad. Not worth his 3.6, but not worthless either. His physicality is also something the Pens don't have outside of Orpik, and Engelland (who will never be more than a bottom pairing D). There's some options in FA that we could get instead for around the same money. I wouldn't say they're better, just different. Schenn's age means he has potential to still get better.
That would be great, but we can't trade for Kulemin assuming that'll be the case. The fact of the matter is that he scored 7 goals last season and made 2.3 mil per last year. I'll start giving Kulemin his '10-'11 value when the rest of HF gives Paul Martin his '10-'11 value.

And Schenn was bad last year. For how that affects his value, see above.

Quote:
Actually I think this point works against you. You're saying depth wins, then point to the Oilers and say they needed those two wingers... The Pens have a good supporting cast even if you remove Staal. Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, MAF. Remove Staal and replace him with Sutter and Jokinen, or Kulemin and Schenn, and add in Kunitz and that's not a bad lineup, and one that's more evenly balanced than just having the big 3 down the middle with 2 legit top 6 wingers.
No, I'm not. I'm saying that very good players make teams with great players even better. And none of the players offered to us in these deals are very good, nor are they a good bet to become very good.

That's the point. The trades Philly made got them quality depth, because in return for Carter and Richards they got young, blue-chip assets on the upswing. We're getting offered reclamation projects and middle-of-the-road prospects.

Surely you can see the difference.

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05-27-2012, 12:15 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That would be great, but we can't trade for Kulemin assuming that'll be the case. The fact of the matter is that he scored 7 goals last season and made 2.3 mil per last year. I'll start giving Kulemin his '10-'11 value when the rest of HF gives Paul Martin his '10-'11 value.

And Schenn was bad last year. For how that affects his value, see above.



No, I'm not. I'm saying that very good players make teams with great players even better. And none of the players offered to us in these deals are very good, nor are they a good bet to become very good.

That's the point. The trades Philly made got them quality depth, because in return for Carter and Richards they got young, blue-chip assets on the upswing. We're getting offered reclamation projects and middle-of-the-road prospects.

Surely you can see the difference.
Schenn was a blue chip asset. The 8th overall had upside. Simmonds was a good young player with upside who hadn't gone to the next level. Same for Voracek. Those two took the next step this season, but it was far from a sure thing.

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05-27-2012, 12:18 PM
  #149
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There are not 29 teams that would be in a bidding war for Jordan Staal. Many teams don't have the need for another 2 center that would require them to spend significant assets to get him. Many other teams near the bottom of the standings aren't going to be seeking to trade significant assets for a guy who is a UFA after next year and will likely leave if their team isn't that good. It's actually a fairly narrow list of teams that would be willing to trade significant assets for Staal. I'm sure everyone would love him for free but he's obviously not being given away for just any package.

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05-27-2012, 12:21 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by H a w k s View Post
It also weakens the hawks lineup tremendously.
Does it? You upgrade from Bolland to Staal, replace Stalberg with Saad and you get 2 players to put on your 4th line one of who has decent upside.


Bolland might have the edge in playoff numbers but to be fair for a few of those runs he was playing with guys like Ladd, etc who are better than your standard 3rd liners.

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