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05-27-2012, 01:01 PM
  #176
WarriorofTime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Trading the guy who led our team in scoring this past post-season must be the solution to our playoff woes, right?

Maybe you should trade Toews for Stephen Weiss. He's cheaper, allowing your team to spend more money elsewhere and actually address the reasons why you haven't done anything the last two years.
Well then going by your criteria the Hawks shouldn't trade Bolland. He's been a great playoff performer the last four seasons. He was the reason the Hawks battled from 3-0 down in 2011 to force a game 7 (six points in four games, stopped the Sedins cold in their tracks, Hawks went 3-1). Nice job comparing Staal to Toews. Pretty much sums up what Pittsburgh fans think Staal's value is.

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05-27-2012, 01:06 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Who said anything about stats? Not me. You can tell by one's argument (that includes mine too) whether someone has extensively watched a player. Save your time, and no offense but it's abundantly clear you haven't seen enough Bolland or Saad to offer a meaningful opinion.
Why should I break down all the subjective reasons why Staal is significantly better than Bolland when the hard evidence supports my position? If somebody wants to argue that Spezza isn't a significant step down from Crosby, I'm not going to the trouble of outlining all the reasons he's off-base.

Fact is, if Staal weren't significantly better than Bolland, Hawks fans wouldn't be clamoring for a 2nd line center, because they'd already have one.

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05-27-2012, 01:09 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Well then going by your criteria the Hawks shouldn't trade Bolland. He's been a great playoff performer the last four seasons. He was the reason the Hawks battled from 3-0 down in 2011 to force a game 7 (six points in four games, stopped the Sedins cold in their tracks, Hawks went 3-1). Nice job comparing Staal to Toews. Pretty much sums up what Pittsburgh fans think Staal's value is.
Great, they should. Everybody's happy.

/Bolland for Staal discussion

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05-27-2012, 01:12 PM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Why should I break down all the subjective reasons why Staal is better than Bolland when the hard evidence supports my position? If somebody wants to argue that Spezza isn't a significant step down from Crosby, I'm not going to the trouble of outlining all the reasons he's off-base for him.
Using Crosby vs. Spezza as a parallel to Staal vs. Bolland comparison is asinine. I think my question has been answered through your hyperbole and absence of anything to indicate you've seen enough of Bolland to form an opinion. Nothing wrong with it but very hard to make an assessment otherwise in my book.

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/Bolland for Staal discussion
But that was never the discussion. It was Bolland + Saad+ 1st for Staal. Hardly the same now is it?

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05-27-2012, 01:13 PM
  #180
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Nikolai Kulemin + Carl Gunnarsson for Jordan Staal and a 3rd round pick.

Kulemin - Played like a 3rd line forward this past season, produced like a 4th liner but has realistic 2nd line upside at LW.
Gunnarsson - Extremely reliable and consistent top 4 defenceman. Tremendous hockey IQ and vision. Good stick and two-way game.


Last edited by Four1 Lead: 05-27-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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05-27-2012, 01:22 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Using Crosby vs. Spezza as a parallel to Staal vs. Bolland comparison is asinine. I think my question has been answered through your hyperbole and absence of anything to indicate you've seen enough of Bolland to form an opinion. Nothing wrong with it but very hard to make an assessment otherwise in my book.
Translation:

"I am not required to do any breakdown of my own to support my position, even though mine is the position counter to the hard evidence. But...if you don't do the breakdown I've demanded (and haven't done myself), your position is without merit."

That about right?

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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
But that was never the discussion. It was Bolland + Saad+ 1st for Staal. Hardly the same now is it?
Jesus.

/any deal with Staal and Bolland as the principal parts

You know, since Bolland's practically Staal anyway, it looks like Chicago has their own 2C solution in house.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 05-27-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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05-27-2012, 01:24 PM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Nikolai Kulemin + Carl Gunnarsson for Jordan Staal and a 3rd round pick.

Kulemin - Played like a 3rd line forward this past season, produced like a 4th liner but has realistic 2nd line upside at LW.
Gunnarsson - Extremely reliable and consistent top 4 defenceman. Tremendous hockey IQ and vision. Good stick and two-way game.
Not enough.

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05-27-2012, 01:26 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Nikolai Kulemin + Carl Gunnarsson for Jordan Staal and a 3rd round pick.

Kulemin - Played like a 3rd line forward this past season, produced like a 4th liner but has realistic 2nd line upside at LW.
Gunnarsson - Extremely reliable and consistent top 4 defenceman. Tremendous hockey IQ and vision. Good stick and two-way game.
Toronto was 2nd worst in GA this year. If Gunnarson's as good defensively as you claim, they need more of him, not less.

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05-27-2012, 01:27 PM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Nikolai Kulemin + Carl Gunnarsson for Jordan Staal and a 3rd round pick.

Kulemin - Played like a 3rd line forward this past season, produced like a 4th liner but has realistic 2nd line upside at LW.
Gunnarsson - Extremely reliable and consistent top 4 defenceman. Tremendous hockey IQ and vision. Good stick and two-way game.
Almost any way you dice it, your 1st has to be included.

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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I'm not entirely sure about that. Shero CAN resign Staal. The issue is the on ice value for whatever the price will be. If Staal wants 6.5M, several teams will give it to him. Push comes to shove, I think Shero will too. BUT, I think he's going to listen regardless to see if there's a return of assets (and future cap space) that positions his team better.
That's only assuming he wants money. If it's about his role on the Pens then it's possible that Shero can't sign him. They could turn him into a winger like Marleau, and that might work...

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Trading the guy who led our team in scoring this past post-season must be the solution to our playoff woes, right?
The fact that he led the team in scoring was our issue, and clearly illustrates how insignificant he is to our team. Sure he put up 9 pts in 6 games. But we were still out in the first round. Showing that our playoff hopes live and die with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF.

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05-27-2012, 01:32 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
The fact that he led the team in scoring was our issue, and clearly illustrates how insignificant he is to our team. Sure he put up 9 pts in 6 games. But we were still out in the first round. Showing that our playoff hopes live and die with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF.
It illustrates nothing. With Martin playing like he's got pockets full of eggs and Fleury throwing slow rollers in his own net, we won't be winning, period.

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05-27-2012, 01:32 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I never said any of that. There was that little back-and-forth between two Penguin fans on whether Jokinen + Sutter + 8th for Staal + Martin + 20th was a better offer than what had been proposed thus far. I simply commented that I'd do the Jokinen deal, but added the McBain deal was probably more in Pittsburgh's favor.
well I'd do Tyler Kennedy and Casey Pierro-Zabotel for Jeff Skinner but since thats outside the realm of likelihood, it is probably not worth mentioning.

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05-27-2012, 01:33 PM
  #187
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Toronto was 2nd worst in GA this year. If Gunnarson's as good defensively as you claim, they need more of him, not less.
Gunnarsson is the most consistent defenceman the Leafs have had for quite some time.

He's far from flashy but very affective and reliable. You need to watch him play to understand the value he has.

The Leafs are going to be adapting to the Randy Carlyle system. It's more focused on defensive play and grit. The thinking is that this system will lower the GA rate. Though Gunnarsson is a fan favourite and a rock, you have give to get.

Kulemin and Gunnarsson adds a top 6 forward and a top 4 defenceman. Both around 25 years of age.

Kulemin is Toronto's best defensive forward and Gunnarsson is Toronto's best defensive defenceman.

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05-27-2012, 01:33 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
The fact that he led the team in scoring was our issue, and clearly illustrates how insignificant he is to our team. Sure he put up 9 pts in 6 games. But we were still out in the first round. Showing that our playoff hopes live and die with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF.
clearly Stamkos sucks then

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05-27-2012, 01:34 PM
  #189
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Let's re-read the article about Staal for Bolland speculation ...

Quote:
Bolland alone won’t get Staal. Not even close. But Bolland and hot prospect Brandon Saad might get the Penguins to the table. Saad is a Pittsburgh native and very popular in that area. A package of Bolland, Saad, another prospect and a first-round pick or two might get Staal to Chicago.

The Penguins undoubtedly would want to trade Staal to a Western Conference team and the Hawks likewise, with Bolland heading the other way. Maybe it takes another player from the Hawks roster but the Penguins might not want that kind of salary additions assuming Crosby gets big dollars. If they insist on including Nick Leddy or Niklas Hjalmarsson, the Hawks should still do it.
So for the re-cap ... Bolland + Leddy + Saad + another prospect + 2 1st rounder

For me, it's Rick Nash return ... maybe some GMs value Staal the same as Nash??? Maybe???


I have no clue, who is the guy who wrote that article, but at least he's called The Insider.

Just for the comparision .. some Toronto fan came in and offered Kulemin + Schenn.

I am not gonna talk about the value of Staal, but to me, it looks like his value is massively high.. he's very rare commodity, he's complete package.. I doubt GMs see him as good 2nd line center.. I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT !!!

It's a kind of player who won't be able to get in the next 3-5 years. If he's available, Shero will have f***ing busy summer.

If Jordan's traded, there will be SOOOOOOO many surprised faces. Especially some Canes fans here, who are coming here to say it's overpayment to every proposal, because Pens fans said they would ask for Skinner and Sutter + 8th overall is not enough

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05-27-2012, 01:37 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Gunnarsson is the most consistent defenceman the Leafs have had for quite some time.

He's far from flashy but very affective and reliable. You need to watch him play to understand the value he has.

The Leafs are going to be adapting to the Randy Carlyle system. It's more focused on defensive play and grit. The thinking is that this system will lower the GA rate. Though Gunnarsson is a fan favourite and a rock, you have give to get.

Kulemin and Gunnarsson adds a top 6 forward and a top 4 defenceman. Both around 25 years of age.

Kulemin is Toronto's best defensive forward and Gunnarsson is Toronto's best defensive defenceman.
That was my nice way of saying it's not nearly enough.

We don't need defensive forwards, and Gunnarson, while a nice player, isn't the calibre (or type - we need more bruisers) of defenseman we'd need.

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05-27-2012, 01:39 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That was my nice way of saying it's not nearly enough.

We don't need defensive forwards, and Gunnarson, while a nice player, isn't the calibre (or type - we need more bruisers) of defenseman we'd need.
Kulemin + Gunnarsson + Colborne for Jordan Staal and a 3rd rounder (2013).

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05-27-2012, 01:43 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Kulemin + Gunnarsson + Colborne for Jordan Staal and a 3rd rounder (2013).
The return would have to include a blue-chip young asset who's a virtual sure thing to make an impact on an ELC (think Brayden Schenn) or a winger who would make a comparable impact to Staal to make it worthwhile (think Ryan or Sharp).

I don't believe the Leafs have the disposable assets to get it done.

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05-27-2012, 01:46 PM
  #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mika Zibanejad View Post
Kulemin + Gunnarsson + Colborne for Jordan Staal and a 3rd rounder (2013).
Again, no. Torono is never getting Staal without the 5th overall coming back.

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05-27-2012, 02:03 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
Quote:
The fact that he led the team in scoring was our issue, and clearly illustrates how insignificant he is to our team. Sure he put up 9 pts in 6 games. But we were still out in the first round. Showing that our playoff hopes live and die with Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF.
clearly Stamkos sucks then
Yes clearly... because that's exactly what I said.

Stamkos like, Crosby and Malkin are the engine that drives the team. The best players are expected to lead the team. When they don't your team isn't going to do much. The whole team **** the bed, but to point at Staal and say "well he led the team in scoring, so we can't trade him..." is retarded. It doesn't matter if he leads the team in scoring if Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF play like crap, as we still won't go anywhere. However if Staal plays like crap (or isn't on the team) yet the rest play how they should, then it doesn't matter... Our playoff hopes all rest with those 4. Staal's performance (good or bad) might be enough to tilt a close series, but unless the rest come to play it won't matter.

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05-27-2012, 02:12 PM
  #195
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Yes clearly... because that's exactly what I said.

Stamkos like, Crosby and Malkin are the engine that drives the team. The best players are expected to lead the team. When they don't your team isn't going to do much. The whole team **** the bed, but to point at Staal and say "well he led the team in scoring, so we can't trade him..." is retarded. It doesn't matter if he leads the team in scoring if Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF play like crap, as we still won't go anywhere. However if Staal plays like crap (or isn't on the team) yet the rest play how they should, then it doesn't matter... Our playoff hopes all rest with those 4. Staal's performance (good or bad) might be enough to tilt a close series, but unless the rest come to play it won't matter.
well Stamkos had an amazing season, the team did nothing, clearly they need a new "engine." And complimentary players are all replaceable and shouldn't be valued. I guess Neal should be dumped for anything too

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05-27-2012, 02:13 PM
  #196
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Yes clearly... because that's exactly what I said.

Stamkos like, Crosby and Malkin are the engine that drives the team. The best players are expected to lead the team. When they don't your team isn't going to do much. The whole team **** the bed, but to point at Staal and say "well he led the team in scoring, so we can't trade him..." is retarded. It doesn't matter if he leads the team in scoring if Crosby, Malkin, Letang and MAF play like crap, as we still won't go anywhere. However if Staal plays like crap (or isn't on the team) yet the rest play how they should, then it doesn't matter... Our playoff hopes all rest with those 4. Staal's performance (good or bad) might be enough to tilt a close series, but unless the rest come to play it won't matter.
It has been. One particularly important series comes to mind...

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05-27-2012, 02:15 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Translation:

"I am not required to do any breakdown of my own to support my position, even though mine is the position counter to the hard evidence. But...if you don't do the breakdown I've demanded (and haven't done myself), your position is without merit."

That about right?
Nope, not right at all. Not to be a dick but you asked and set yourself up for this.

As I've stated before Staal is better overall than Bolland but the margin is not all that significant.

Staal's advantages: better goal scorer, more physical, better along the boards, better intrazone defender. slightly better on draws.

Bolland's advantages: better playmaker, better passer, better defender in transition, steps up game more overall in playoffs vs. regular season.

Didn't take any time looking at stats, which is your preferred method, but rather I base it on observation. One can always quibble with some of the conclusions but you are not one of those as you've already acknowledged you haven't seen enough of Bolland to offer a subjective opinion.

In the final analysis though, Chicago and Pittsburgh aren't great trade partners as the Hawks have more pressing needs elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinTommy View Post
If Jordan's traded, there will be SOOOOOOO many surprised faces. Especially some Canes fans here, who are coming here to say it's overpayment to every proposal, because Pens fans said they would ask for Skinner and Sutter + 8th overall is not enough
Agreed but the surprise will be on the Pens side. I have yet to read one compellingly good proposal. Almost all are one-sided and some downright hilarious,e.g. Detroit, NYR, Chicago Carolina, etc. Yes, the Pens will look for an overpayment but an overpayment is only made if you have the compelling need. Sure, all it takes is one team but still some of the valuations are just insane.


Last edited by StormCast: 05-27-2012 at 02:22 PM.
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05-27-2012, 02:20 PM
  #198
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Nope, not right at all. Not to be a dick but you asked and set yourself up for this.

As I've stated before Staal is better overall than Bolland but the margin is not all that significant.

Staal's advantages: better goal scorer, more physical, better along the boards, better intrazone defender. slightly better on draws.

Bolland's advantages: better playmaker, better passer, better defender transition, steps up game in playoffs vs. regular season.

Didn't take any time looking at stats, which is your preferred method, but rather I base it on observation. One can always quibble with some of the conclusions but you are not one of those as you've already acknowledged you haven't seen enough of Bolland to offer a subjective opinion.

In the final analysis though, Chicago and Pittsburgh aren't great trade partners as the Hawks have more pressing needs elsewhere.
Wait, did you really just list "steps up game in playoffs" for Bolland and not for Staal? Uhhh WUT??

Also you put better playmaker and passer as two separate things? From the center position they're quite similar aspects of the game.

That breakdown is hilarious.

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05-27-2012, 02:29 PM
  #199
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Wait, did you really just list "steps up game in playoffs" for Bolland and not for Staal? Uhhh WUT??

Also you put better playmaker and passer as two separate things? From the center position they're quite similar aspects of the game.

That breakdown is hilarious.
Staal's rookie year playoffs were excellent as was his 6-game output this year. Bolland produces more in the playoffs vs. the regular over the course of his career whereas Staal produces less. That is inarguable but feel free, as I think you're another who hasn't seen much of Bolland.

Are you seriously questioning the difference between playmaker and passing? Sure, a playmaking pass is intended to set up a goal but what about breakout passes or or passes through the neutral zone to a winger or passes to work the perimeter? Come on really? This isn't an advanced concept.

So you think the breakdown is hilarious? No worries, given the questions you raised. Feel free to add your own. Maybe you can rate which guy has more of a winning smile?

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05-27-2012, 02:31 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Nope, not right at all. Not to be a dick but you asked and set yourself up for this.

As I've stated before Staal is better overall than Bolland but the margin is not all that significant.

Staal's advantages: better goal scorer, more physical, better along the boards, better intrazone defender. slightly better on draws.

Bolland's advantages: better playmaker, better passer, better defender transition, steps up game in playoffs vs. regular season.

Didn't take any time looking at stats, which is your preferred method, but rather I base it on observation. One can always quibble with some of the conclusions but you are not one of those as you've already acknowledged you haven't seen enough of Bolland to offer a subjective opinion.

In the final analysis though, Chicago and Pittsburgh aren't great trade partners as the Hawks have more pressing needs elsewhere.
No, I haven't. But when the hard evidence supports one side, the burden of proof should be on the other.

The fundamental problem with your evaluation is that you weight each attribute equally, as though "better goal scorer" and "better playmaker" even out, even though Staal is a far superior goal-scorer, while Bolland's pure playmaking (and passing, ha!) doesn't translate into any tangible advantage because Staal is big and strong enough to get himself into spots where a simple pass will get the job done, rather than having to thread the needle.

That's the difference between Staal and Bolland, and that's why Chicago has Bolland and is still looking for a 2C.

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