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Old
05-27-2012, 02:33 PM
  #201
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Yes the hawks should give up their top prospect a 40 pt dman who just turned 21 and one of their core for staal?

Pass

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05-27-2012, 02:34 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Are you seriously questioning the difference between playmaker and passing? Sure, a playmaking pass is intended to set up a goal but what about breakout passes or or passes through the neutral zone to a winger or passes to work the perimeter? Come on really? This isn't an advanced concept.
Those would be plays.

But hey, if I were trying to drum up advantages for a guy who was obviously inferior, I might start classifying two things as one too.

"Staal's a better goal-scorer. He's also a better shooter!"

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05-27-2012, 02:36 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Those would be plays.

But hey, if I were trying to drum up advantages for a guy who was obviously inferior, I might start classifying two things as one too.

"Staal's a better goal-scorer. He's also a better shooter!"
better release too. He's also a better penalty killer and better short handed and better down a man.

Thats like 5 things. This isn't even close anymore. Staal is also an assistant captain most games. So Staal is a better leader.

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05-27-2012, 02:36 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
better release too. He's also a better penalty killer and better short handed.

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05-27-2012, 02:43 PM
  #205
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Wait... a debate between Jordan Staal and Dave freakin' Bolland?

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05-27-2012, 02:46 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Staal's rookie year playoffs were excellent as was his 6-game output this year. Bolland produces more in the playoffs vs. the regular over the course of his career whereas Staal produces less. That is inarguable but feel free, as I think you're another who hasn't seen much of Bolland.

Are you seriously questioning the difference between playmaker and passing? Sure, a playmaking pass is intended to set up a goal but what about breakout passes or or passes through the neutral zone to a winger or passes to work the perimeter? Come on really? This isn't an advanced concept.

So you think the breakdown is hilarious? No worries, given the questions you raised. Feel free to add your own. Maybe you can rate which guy has more of a winning smile?
Good to see you can tell how much I've seen of a player just through guessing. I've seen Bolland play 50 games the last three years. It's hard not to catch a bunch of Blackhawks games on tv. In the same way it's hard not to catch a bunch of Pens games. Therefore you don't see me automatically calling out "oh you haven't seen him enough!"

I said for the center position, breakout passing is not an essential part of this breakdown. Sure, Bolland might be better at it but really how often does a center make a breakout pass through the zone. Passing while in the neutral zone is important yes. Personally I dont think any of us really know how good Staal is at it. His line for the last three years (sans the end of this year, when he was playing less of a forechecking style) has been a dump and chase and set up the forecheck. That's what the line was best at, and among the top lines in the NHL doing it. So they weren't exactly asked to make short passes through the neutral zone or stretch passes to try and spring people. Personally I think his passing isunderrated because of this fact. He is just as solid a passer as Bolland in that regard, or at least close enough to the point where it doesnt matter. What he does lack is creativity in the offensive zone. I fully give Bolland an advantage there.

If you don't think Staal steps his game up in the playoffs though, I have no idea what to say to you about that then. Not to say that Bolland doesn't, but we're really splitting hairs here if we're saying one does and the other doesn't.

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05-27-2012, 02:47 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, I haven't. But when the hard evidence supports one side, the burden of proof should be on the other.

The fundamental problem with your evaluation is that you weight each attribute equally, as though "better goal scorer" and "better playmaker" even out, even though Staal is a far superior goal-scorer, while Bolland's pure playmaking (and passing, ha!) doesn't translate into any tangible advantage because Staal is big and strong enough to get himself into spots where a simple pass will get the job done, rather than having to thread the needle.
Ok, so how much on average have you watched Bolland? Not just a Hawks game but paid attention to what he does? I'm willing to wager without looking it up you don't know if he's a RHS or LHS. No, I didn't weigh everything equal for if I had, then it would be a dead heat given the number of categories but I picked Staal ahead of Bolland. Of course, you and some of your fellow fans think it's heresy to mention them in the same breath.

And yes, there is a difference between a passer and playmaker at center. You can be a good head-man passer but not a good playmaking passer. There are many good examples of guys like that.
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Originally Posted by PenguinTommy View Post
If Jordan's traded, there will be SOOOOOOO many surprised faces. Especially some Canes fans here, who are coming here to say it's overpayment to every proposal, because Pens fans said they would ask for Skinner and Sutter + 8th overall is not enough
Agreed but the surprise will be on the Pens side. I have yet to read one compellingly good proposal. Almost all are one-sided and some downright hilarious,e.g. Detroit, NYR, Chicago Carolina, etc. Yes, the Pens will look for an overpayment but an overpayment is only made if you have the compelling need. Sure, all it takes is one team but still some of the valuations are just insane.

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Those would be plays.

But hey, if I were trying to drum up advantages for a guy who was obviously inferior, I might start classifying two things as one too.

"Staal's a better goal-scorer. He's also a better shooter!"
Wow, you really are serious.

By most accounts playmaking has to do with setting up chances. You really think every breakout pass or head-man pass is intended to a be scoring chance vs. simply getting out of the zone? That's rhetorical by the way.

On a bigger scale, I rated Staal higher. Yet you continue to whine. All the while adding nothing to the discussion about Bolland's ability. Interesting. Telling. And funny to boot.

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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Wait... a debate between Jordan Staal and Dave freakin' Bolland?
No debate at all. Everyone agrees Staal is better but a couple posters apparently feel it's insulting to say the gap isn't significant.

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05-27-2012, 02:48 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Wait... a debate between Jordan Staal and Dave freakin' Bolland?
Yep. And here we thought Chicago needed a #2 center.

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05-27-2012, 02:50 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
No debate at all. Everyone agrees Staal is better but a couple posters apparently feel it's insulting to say the gap isn't significant.
Well it is...

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05-27-2012, 02:57 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Good to see you can tell how much I've seen of a player just through guessing. I've seen Bolland play 50 games the last three years. It's hard not to catch a bunch of Blackhawks games on tv. In the same way it's hard not to catch a bunch of Pens games. Therefore you don't see me automatically calling out "oh you haven't seen him enough!"

I said for the center position, breakout passing is not an essential part of this breakdown. Sure, Bolland might be better at it but really how often does a center make a breakout pass through the zone. Passing while in the neutral zone is important yes. Personally I dont think any of us really know how good Staal is at it. His line for the last three years (sans the end of this year, when he was playing less of a forechecking style) has been a dump and chase and set up the forecheck. That's what the line was best at, and among the top lines in the NHL doing it. So they weren't exactly asked to make short passes through the neutral zone or stretch passes to try and spring people. Personally I think his passing isunderrated because of this fact. He is just as solid a passer as Bolland in that regard, or at least close enough to the point where it doesnt matter. What he does lack is creativity in the offensive zone. I fully give Bolland an advantage there.

If you don't think Staal steps his game up in the playoffs though, I have no idea what to say to you about that then. Not to say that Bolland doesn't, but we're really splitting hairs here if we're saying one does and the other doesn't.
You questioned Bolland's increased performance in the playoffs. It's well known and if you don't know that, then my conclusion was reasonable. Staal on average, other than the two postseasons I cited produce at the same level he does in the regular season. That doesn't mean he isn't good in the playoffs. But compared to their regular seasons, Bolland has historically elevated his game more. Why is that such a tough concept to understand.

In terms of ranking their passing, you and I both know that playmaking doesn't equal passing. You initially took issue with what I wrote and now are basically agreeing but with caveats.

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Well it is...
Outstanding insight. Debate team member in school?

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05-27-2012, 03:22 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
better release too. He's also a better penalty killer and better short handed and better down a man.

Thats like 5 things. This isn't even close anymore. Staal is also an assistant captain most games. So Staal is a better leader.
Staal's a better skater and less of an injury concern to. Bolland brings an in your face style which Staal doesn't really have though Staal's more physical.

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05-27-2012, 03:27 PM
  #212
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Staal's a better skater and less of an injury concern to. Bolland brings an in your face style which Staal doesn't really have though Staal's more physical.
The injury concern is fair one and I'd agree. Skating though, not so sure. Staal skates well for a big guy and Bolland isn't a speed merchant himself. Bolland does have better quickness though both straight line and laterally which makes his transitional D better. They do have different styles but I gave Staal the edge there based on how he uses his physicality with and without the puck.

Regardless of what criteria is used, the difference is just not huge other than in name recognition which favors Staal. But good to see someone actually making good observations between the two vs. a knee-jerk response without providing any real insight.

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05-27-2012, 03:31 PM
  #213
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Staal does take a few strides to get up to speed but he can really fly for his size once he gets going.

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05-27-2012, 03:33 PM
  #214
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Staal does take a few strides to get up to speed but he can really fly for his size once he gets going.
I agree and he has very powerful strides (like all the NHL Staals) but the difference in initial quickness is somewhat marked.

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05-27-2012, 03:51 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Ok, so how much on average have you watched Bolland? Not just a Hawks game but paid attention to what he does? I'm willing to wager without looking it up you don't know if he's a RHS or LHS. No, I didn't weigh everything equal for if I had, then it would be a dead heat given the number of categories but I picked Staal ahead of Bolland. Of course, you and some of your fellow fans think it's heresy to mention them in the same breath.
I watch Bolland about as much as I watch any 3rd line center in the league, which is to say whenever his team plays my team, plus a few scattered games throughout the year and playoffs. I don't put a player on iso-cam and scrutinize every play, though I'm sure you do.

In other words, I've seen more than enough to gauge his worth, and I've seen nothing that would suggest to me that the hard evidence is misleading in any way. More tellingly, the response from Chicago posters regarding their willingness to deal Bolland in return for a 2nd line center - namely Staal - does little to support the idea that Staal wouldn't be a significant upgrade.

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And yes, there is a difference between a passer and playmaker at center. You can be a good head-man passer but not a good playmaking passer. There are many good examples of guys like that.
In the interests of arguing in earnest, it would have been better to combine them. Likewise Staal's shooting/goal-scoring/nose for the net/sniping.

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On a bigger scale, I rated Staal higher. Yet you continue to whine. All the while adding nothing to the discussion about Bolland's ability. Interesting. Telling. And funny to boot.
Huh? I took issue with your assertion about Bolland's playmaking, and explained how Staal's other advantages translated into better tangible results, which is really the meat of the issue. Arguing about other superfluous parts of Bolland's game serves no purpose here.

The whole point here, in case you missed it, was that Hawks fans are trying to package Bolland in a deal for Staal because they want a 2nd line center. If the gap between the two weren't significant, there would be no need for such a trade.

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05-27-2012, 03:56 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
The injury concern is fair one and I'd agree. Skating though, not so sure. Staal skates well for a big guy and Bolland isn't a speed merchant himself. Bolland does have better quickness though both straight line and laterally which makes his transitional D better. They do have different styles but I gave Staal the edge there based on how he uses his physicality with and without the puck.

Regardless of what criteria is used, the difference is just not huge other than in name recognition which favors Staal. But good to see someone actually making good observations between the two vs. a knee-jerk response without providing any real insight.
Except of course the biggest difference, which is production. Bolland simply isn't nearly as effective offensively as Staal.

Apparently that's immaterial compared to lateral skating, though, when evaluating a player's worth.


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05-27-2012, 04:04 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
In the interests of arguing in earnest, it would have been better to combine them. Likewise Staal's shooting/goal-scoring/nose for the net/sniping.

Huh? I took issue with your assertion about Bolland's playmaking, and explained how Staal's other advantages translated into better tangible results, which is really the meat of the issue. Arguing about other superfluous parts of Bolland's game serves no purpose here.
Fact is I took the initiative to come up with categories by which to compare them and you mistakenly claimed I equally weighted the categories. I didn't. You initially said you weren't going to spend the time looking up stats. As I stated in my earlier post, people can quibble with my observations but you somehow think nitpicking and misunderstanding the distinction between passing and playmaking somehow makes it a huge significant advantage for Staal?

Plus in case you missed it, I concluded Staal was the better player but if you want to argue that Staal is better with the puck (or whatever description you want) than Bolland, more power to you.

I also see you like to use the term "hard evidence." What exactly do you mean. Or why don't you apply "hard evidence" to how Bolland and Staal do in the postseason since that's a bone of contention apparently?

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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Except of course the biggest difference, which is production. Bolland simply isn't nearly as effective offensively as Staal.
That would be more "hard evidence" I presume? Please do elaborate, I have little doubt it will only get more entertaining.

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05-27-2012, 04:14 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Fact is I took the initiative to come up with categories by which to compare them and you mistakenly claimed I equally weighted the categories. I didn't. You initially said you weren't going to spend the time looking up stats. As I stated in my earlier post, people can quibble with my observations but you somehow think nitpicking and misunderstanding the distinction between passing and playmaking somehow makes it a huge significant advantage for Staal?

Plus in case you missed it, I concluded Staal was the better player but if you want to argue that Staal is better with the puck (or whatever description you want) than Bolland, more power to you.

I also see you like to use the term "hard evidence." What exactly do you mean. Or why don't you apply "hard evidence" to how Bolland and Staal do in the postseason since that's a bone of contention apparently?


That would be more "hard evidence" I presume? Please do elaborate, I have little doubt it will only get more entertaining.
This is going nowhere. Why would Chicago be willing to deal Bolland++ if Staal wasn't a significant upgrade? There is in fact a big difference between the two players at this point in their careers.

Staal is coming off a far superior playoff performance. While Bolland had an awful regular season and a so-so playoffs with 3 assists. There's a reason why he's getting run out of town by many in the media and fans.

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05-27-2012, 04:15 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Let's examine these bolded points. With shutdown C's like Sutter and Bolland it all comes down to points but if seemingly if anyone does that with J. Staal the Pens posting cavalry comes out the woodwork citing everything from intangibles to pro-rated stats. So I guess you're good with evaluating Staal's trade value purely on points? Yeah, thought not. Hypocritical indeed.

Noe, on to Sutter in the Pens system to your other point. Why would he have a tough time translating his skills into the Pens system? Because of the vaunted m2m scheme? No problem, he's played most of his NHL for Maurice who used the same defensive scheme and a very similar puck possession and cycling offensive scheme.

Sutter would also have much better wingers than who he played with last year in Nodl, Bowman or Dwyer. Nothing is guaranteed but that's a much better stated case than your how do intangibles translate. By the way, the whole lack of guarantee also applies to Jordan Staal you know.

Once again, since you missed it before apparently, there is no doubt you've seen more of Jeffrey. However, he is being transitioned from a scoring C and PP point to a checking role in the NHL so let's not act like he is a lock. Even in WSB as recently as this past year, he played the same role.

Note--I'm not advocating for this trade merely sticking to the original comment that your values are off.
First of all don't project what others have said about Staal on me, that is lame.

I've already said I am very confident in the fact Jeffrey can replace Staal's duties on the third line, especially when I know that players like Park, Dupuis, Vitale and Jeffrey have been mostly playing as the third pivot over the last 18 months, not Staal. It is pretty obvious why that comes into play with my argument.

Staal has barely played as a shutdown pivot since PK Subban stepped on his foot. So this team has been winning without Staal playing as a shutdown center. They even went on a 10 game win streak when he was out two winters ago. They don't need Staal in that role to be successful. That is proven.

Staal has mostly been in a scoring role when he has been in the lineup over the last two seasons. Which is exactly why I am worried about Jeffrey and a top 6 winger being able to replace his production. I'm not worried about replacing his defensive game, because he hasn't played that role in two years.

So when I compare Bolland and Sutters numbers, production wise, they aren't going to be a huge upgrade over what I feel Jeffrey can provide. 30-35 points, again, is not an unreasonable number for Jeffrey.

And no, Jeffrey was never a scoring center. He played on the third and fourth lines. Again you are talking about something you don't know. He hasnt even been in WBS since two years ago.. You are rambling on about things that simply aren't true.

See, I actually knew Staal wasn't playing as a shutdown center anymore, I knew Jeffrey wasn't playing as a scoring center, because I watch this team, you obviously don't.

Trying to make blanket statements like Jeffrey will never be ____ is hypocritical, no matter how you try to BS your way out of it.

This brings me right back to my overall argument, in no way, shape or form is Sutter more valuable to the Pens than Jeffrey and a legit top 6 winger.


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05-27-2012, 04:24 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Fact is I took the initiative to come up with categories by which to compare them and you mistakenly claimed I equally weighted the categories. I didn't. You initially said you weren't going to spend the time looking up stats. As I stated in my earlier post, people can quibble with my observations but you somehow think nitpicking and misunderstanding the distinction between passing and playmaking somehow makes it a huge significant advantage for Staal?
Then maybe you could explain what purpose they served? Presumably, you were wanting to use them to show why Bolland was comparable to Staal. All you did was list their respective strengths, which proves nothing in terms of their relative value.

Quote:
I also see you like to use the term "hard evidence." What exactly do you mean. Or why don't you apply "hard evidence" to how Bolland and Staal do in the postseason since that's a bone of contention apparently?
As much as you want to ignore it because it's blatantly in Staal's favour, the difference in production matters. It's clear that the strengths in Staal's offensive game translate into better results for him than Bolland, especially recently.

So if Bolland's advantages don't translate into better results, what kind of advantage are they?

Bolland's been more productive in the playoffs than Staal over the course of their careers, but this past playoffs certainly casts that advantage into doubt.

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05-27-2012, 04:25 PM
  #221
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So when I compare Bolland and Sutters numbers, production wise, they aren't going to be a huge upgrade over what I feel Jeffrey can provide. 30-35 points, again, is not an unreasonable number for Jeffrey.

And no, Jeffrey was never a scoring center. He played on the third and fourth lines. Again you are talking about something you don't know.

See, I actually knew Staal wasn't playing as a shutdown center anymore, I knew Jeffrey wasn't playing as a scoring center, because I watch this team, you obviously don't.

Trying to make blanket statements like Jeffrey will never be ____ is hypocritical, no matter how you try to BS your way out of it.

This brings me right back to my overall argument, in no way, shape or form is Sutter more valuable to the Pens than Jeffrey and a legit top 6 winger.
You know who Sutter centered? Nodl and Dwyer. Put him with Cooke and Kennedy and his numbers will almost certainly increase.

Staal has been given more responsibility offensively as he played on the 2nd line. However, he was still the match-up option against other teams top lines. Let's not go overboard here. You realize you don't have to on the 3rd line to be used in a checking role?

Regarding Jeffrey, I'm talking about the AHL where he centered a scoring line not a checking line. Obviously he's been in the bottom 6 in the NHL.

And yes, keep stating your overall argument. I'm not arguing it. Yet again, I simply said your valuations were off and they are.

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05-27-2012, 04:28 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
This is going nowhere. Why would Chicago be willing to deal Bolland++ if Staal wasn't a significant upgrade? There is in fact a big difference between the two players at this point in their careers.

Staal is coming off a far superior playoff performance. While Bolland had an awful regular season and a so-so playoffs with 3 assists. There's a reason why he's getting run out of town by many in the media and fans.

Who is running Bolland out of town? Jesse Rogers? The guy that thought the hawks were going to trade for Jeff finger? That guy?

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05-27-2012, 04:28 PM
  #223
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Except of course the biggest difference, which is production. Bolland simply isn't nearly as effective offensively as Staal.
Is that "hard evidence" you used?

Try this, using your own standards and criteria.

Regular Season PPG - Career
Bolland .52
Staal .58

Postseason PPG - Career
Bolland .76
Staal .49

Increase/Decrease over Regular Season
Bolland +.24
Staal -.09

Hmmm....I guess it's time to get your spin cycle going.

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05-27-2012, 04:36 PM
  #224
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With regards to Staal's production, did I not read (in one of the previous topics) that some Penguin fans expect Staal to put up 60-70 points on the 3rd line next year, even with Crosby/Malkin healthy?

If that's correct, and that's the expectation, then you're not going to find a trade that replaces Staal's production. Because very few players hit 60 points in the first place, and those that do generally play more than 3rd line minutes.

If that's the expectation, you're better off keeping Staal and hoping he can meet those expectations.

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05-27-2012, 04:41 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Is that "hard evidence" you used?

Try this, using your own standards and criteria.

Regular Season PPG - Career
Bolland .52
Staal .58

Postseason PPG - Career
Bolland .76
Staal .49

Increase/Decrease over Regular Season
Bolland +.24
Staal -.09

Hmmm....I guess it's time to get your spin cycle going.
It's convenient to use career stats when the player on the opposite side broke out big-time offensively last year, isn't it?

I mean, that way you could argue that Sam Gagner's a better offensive player than Max Pacioretty if you were so inclined. Seems representative of their respective talents at this point.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
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