HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Anaheim Ducks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Sami Vatanen

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-27-2012, 11:32 AM
  #276
justheducks
Registered User
 
justheducks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: OC, California
Posts: 1,288
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to justheducks
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Cat View Post
The list of young players who not only got a "real chance" but thrived under Carlyle's system is a hell of a lot more impressive than your list of rejects.
yeah for 2 out of 6 years? Give me a break! RC would not play any young player and IF they got a chance it was 4 minutes a game on the 4th line or as the 7th Dman and then he used the "he needs more playing time so we are going to send him to the AHL and see what he can do" and then you wouldn't see them back.
I would love to see your "list" of young players that benefited drastically under RC...

justheducks is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 11:43 AM
  #277
Kalvinators
Go Ducks!
 
Kalvinators's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Latvia
Country: Latvia
Posts: 9,928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
yeah for 2 out of 6 years? Give me a break! RC would not play any young player and IF they got a chance it was 4 minutes a game on the 4th line or as the 7th Dman and then he used the "he needs more playing time so we are going to send him to the AHL and see what he can do" and then you wouldn't see them back.
I would love to see your "list" of young players that benefited drastically under RC...
Dan Sexton and Cam Fowler

Kalvinators is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 12:43 PM
  #278
Gibson Les Palms
ImperiumDuckusSacrum
 
Gibson Les Palms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,205
vCash: 50
Fowler played extremely well with Carlyle in 2011. Scoring 40 points as a rookie dman is very impressive, and I give Carlyle some credit for that. It's not like we a side of Cam that we never saw once BB got here.

I have every bit of confidence that Vatanen would develop well with Randy too. Plus, he was a dman at one time and he knows what it's like.

Gibson Les Palms is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 12:55 PM
  #279
Vipers31
Advanced Stagnostic
 
Vipers31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bergisch Gladbach
Country: Germany
Posts: 13,074
vCash: 500
Yeah, while I'm happy with Boudreau and believe it was time to part with Randy, the former gets too much praise for the way his style helps young players, and the latter gets too little in comparision. I really don't think there were many actually talented players that Caryle held back - there will always be bubble players that end up contributing on another team, as some of the guys mentioned here (Carter, Chipchura, Lapierre), but Carlyle didn't have the amount of young and actually very talented players to fill the roster with that Boudreau will likely have. Obviously, I hope he'll prove to be great for the development of most of them, but I'd wait a little to proclaim he's that much better at it than Carlyle.

Vipers31 is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 01:42 PM
  #280
Spicy Porkins
Porkins the White
 
Spicy Porkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: He is risen!
Posts: 12,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
yeah for 2 out of 6 years? Give me a break! RC would not play any young player and IF they got a chance it was 4 minutes a game on the 4th line or as the 7th Dman and then he used the "he needs more playing time so we are going to send him to the AHL and see what he can do" and then you wouldn't see them back.
I would love to see your "list" of young players that benefited drastically under RC...
I have to wonder if you only started watching the team last season. This is not intended to be an exhaustive list.

Beauchemin, Getzlaf, Perry, Penner, Kunitz, Lupul, Huskins, Miller, Ebbett, Ryan, Beleskey, Sexton, Fowler, and McMillan, all rookies who were given significant ice time and trust under Carlyle.

In addition, you have Moen, Pahlsson, McDonald, DiPenta, Parros, Brookbank, Thornton, and Brown, as younger players who either had career seasons or finally blossomed into regular NHLers under Carlyle.

But yeah, Ryan Carter not getting a 5th chance to be useful sure does look bad by comparison.

Spicy Porkins is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 04:17 PM
  #281
Paul4587
Moderator
 
Paul4587's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
Agreed. I can't tell you how excited I am for younger players coming up like Etem, DSP, Vatanen, Holland, Palmieri etc. because they will actually get a real chance under BB. I never got the whole "doghouse" thing under RC. I mean look at the players that were in the doghouse that are making pretty big contributions on other teams...
-Maxim Lappy
-Ryan Carter (has been huge for NJ)
-Chip in Pho had a good season
-McGratton in Nashville.
Those are just a few of what we are talking about with RC.
I am really looking forward to seeing what the kids can do in preseason/training camp.

*Notice how I didn't include Schultz*
Those guys were scrubs here and are now scrubs somewhere else. Carters career PPG is worse this year in NJ than it was here, he's simply having a good playoff run at the moment, just like he was good for us in the playoffs in the 08-09 season filling in on Teemu's line because Ebbett and Christensen couldn't cut it. And he was given plenty of chances here but he wasn't smart enough to be anything more than a 4th liner.

Carlyle was huge in the development of Getzlaf, Penner, Perry, McDonald (to an extent, he broke out under Carlyle), Kunitz, Fowler, Beauchemin & Moen amongst others, he gets way top much crap about not giving young talent opportunities.

Paul4587 is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 06:40 PM
  #282
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 29,649
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by justheducks View Post
yeah for 2 out of 6 years? Give me a break! RC would not play any young player and IF they got a chance it was 4 minutes a game on the 4th line or as the 7th Dman and then he used the "he needs more playing time so we are going to send him to the AHL and see what he can do" and then you wouldn't see them back.
I would love to see your "list" of young players that benefited drastically under RC...
Getzlaf
Perry
Ryan
Kunitz
Beauchemin
Fowler
Huskins

...just to name a few. Carlyle had great success with young players. That is, young players that are legit NHL players. I don't understand the claim from people that Boudreau will, in any way, be better for our young players. Where is the evidence of that? I'm actually a little concerned, after seeing how differently Fowler was playing under Carlyle and Gordon vs. Boudreau. It's a small sample size, but there was a definite loss in effectiveness from Fowler under Boudreau.

Boudreau has more to prove to me, in that regards, than Carlyle. In my opinion, Carlyle has proven he can get results from the youth. I think there are other things Carlyle needs to show moving ahead in his career, such as being able to find new ways to get his team to win hockey games with different rosters. But developing youth, and getting them on the right path to being effective NHL players? I would feel completely comfortable with Carlyle handling our best young players, because he's done a great job of it in the past.

Sojourn is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 06:48 PM
  #283
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 19,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I don't understand the claim from people that Boudreau will, in any way, be better for our young players. Where is the evidence of that? I'm actually a little concerned, after seeing how differently Fowler was playing under Carlyle and Gordon vs. Boudreau. It's a small sample size, but there was a definite loss in effectiveness from Fowler under Boudreau.
He did it in Washington.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought DSP looked significantly better under Boudreau than Carlyle. Same goes for Bonino.

Exit Dose is online now  
Old
05-27-2012, 07:00 PM
  #284
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 29,649
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
He did it in Washington.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought DSP looked significantly better under Boudreau than Carlyle. Same goes for Bonino.
Bonino, I'll grant you, but DSP? I don't think that's fair to Carlyle, Boudreau wasn't there to deal with DSP when he was first breaking into the NHL. Getting used to the speed of the game, and beginning to learn the nuances of the NHL game? That was under Carlyle. By the time Boudreau took over, DSP was already improving and showing more confidence.

As for Washington, I think the success he had there is a bit overrated. There were times I felt like he just didn't have control over his better players. Look at all the crap that was thrown Semin's way, and Ovechkin's, and Green's and let's be honest... a lot of it was deserved.

Sojourn is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 07:04 PM
  #285
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 19,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Bonino, I'll grant you, but DSP? I don't think that's fair to Carlyle, Boudreau wasn't there to deal with DSP when he was first breaking into the NHL. Getting used to the speed of the game, and beginning to learn the nuances of the NHL game? That was under Carlyle. By the time Boudreau took over, DSP was already improving and showing more confidence.

As for Washington, I think the success he had there is a bit overrated. There were times I felt like he just didn't have control over his better players. Look at all the crap that was thrown Semin's way, and Ovechkin's, and Green's and let's be honest... a lot of it was deserved.
From what I've heard, that environment was fostered by their owners and GM, not Boudreau. Supposedly, that's why Hunter gave them the finger and went back to juniors.

Exit Dose is online now  
Old
05-27-2012, 07:13 PM
  #286
Eddie Shack
Bamboo Harvester
 
Eddie Shack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Anaheim, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 9,455
vCash: 500
I think they are both good coaches and am not here to dump on RC. But I found it interesting how many players (including most younger ones) in different interviews later in the season, commented on how their game improved because of the confidence shown in them by the coaching staff. I took it to be a subtle shot at RC in most of those comments.

RC was and is a good coach. But his shelf life here had expired. It was time for him to move on.

Eddie Shack is online now  
Old
05-27-2012, 07:34 PM
  #287
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 29,649
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
From what I've heard, that environment was fostered by their owners and GM, not Boudreau. Supposedly, that's why Hunter gave them the finger and went back to juniors.
That makes it far too easy to give credit for Boudreau for the good, but to ignore the bad. If that was, in fact, the case, I'd give even less credit to Boudreau for the good, because if he had such little control over the players, the good isn't necessarily because of him.

I obviously don't know the whole truth, but I just see more question marks surrounding Boudreau's success with youth than Carlyle's. Time will tell how things go for Boudreau away from that environment.

Sojourn is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 07:48 PM
  #288
Exit Dose
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Cerritos, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 19,616
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
That makes it far too easy to give credit for Boudreau for the good, but to ignore the bad. If that was, in fact, the case, I'd give even less credit to Boudreau for the good, because if he had such little control over the players, the good isn't necessarily because of him.

I obviously don't know the whole truth, but I just see more question marks surrounding Boudreau's success with youth than Carlyle's. Time will tell how things go for Boudreau away from that environment.
It wasn't all the players, just Ovy and Semin.

Exit Dose is online now  
Old
05-27-2012, 08:06 PM
  #289
Gibsons Finest
R-E-L-A-X
 
Gibsons Finest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,838
vCash: 500
Boudreau was also an offensive players coach when he started, and it worked. Then they overreacted and he tried to turn into a hard-nosed defensive coach, which didn't have a ton of success. That's where the problems came from.

Also not sure how you can't be a fan of his track record. Ovi exploded to being the best player in the league under him, Nicklas Backstrom also developed great under him, Brooks Laich became a very good second line player, Mike Green became one of the best offensive defensemen the league has seen in years, Fleischmann was developing well and then they traded him, Carlson developed quite well too. There is no reason to not be pleased with his track record, I'd say it's as good, if not better, than Carlyle's.

Gibsons Finest is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 08:14 PM
  #290
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 29,649
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPeyton View Post
Boudreau was also an offensive players coach when he started, and it worked. Then they overreacted and he tried to turn into a hard-nosed defensive coach, which didn't have a ton of success. That's where the problems came from.

Also not sure how you can't be a fan of his track record. Ovi exploded to being the best player in the league under him, Nicklas Backstrom also developed great under him, Brooks Laich became a very good second line player, Mike Green became one of the best offensive defensemen the league has seen in years, Fleischmann was developing well and then they traded him, Carlson developed quite well too. There is no reason to not be pleased with his track record, I'd say it's as good, if not better, than Carlyle's.
I don't see Ovechkin as a particularly good example. He was a 1st overall pick. He entered the league in dominating fashion. Big things were expected of him, and it's not like Ovechkin struggled and then Boudreau entered the picture and turned things around. To me, that's like giving the coaches in Pittsburgh credit for Crosby playing well. When players enter the league and put up 100+ points in their rookie season, how much influence do you think the coach really has in that player's success?

Sojourn is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 08:35 PM
  #291
Gibsons Finest
R-E-L-A-X
 
Gibsons Finest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
I don't see Ovechkin as a particularly good example. He was a 1st overall pick. He entered the league in dominating fashion. Big things were expected of him, and it's not like Ovechkin struggled and then Boudreau entered the picture and turned things around. To me, that's like giving the coaches in Pittsburgh credit for Crosby playing well. When players enter the league and put up 100+ points in their rookie season, how much influence do you think the coach really has in that player's success?
Not a lot, but that's by far the worst example, and he deserves some credit, Ovi went from a very good player to easily the league's best under him. But, yeah, obviously that's not his shining point. But he clearly did pretty good developing guys there. Carlyle doesn't have a success story like Mike Green, who went from being an ok defenseman prospect to a 30-goal defenseman(his career high in junior was only 14, he's eclipsed that 3 times in the NHL).

Gibsons Finest is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 09:03 PM
  #292
Paul4587
Moderator
 
Paul4587's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPeyton View Post
Carlyle doesn't have a success story like Mike Green, who went from being an ok defenseman prospect to a 30-goal defenseman(his career high in junior was only 14, he's eclipsed that 3 times in the NHL).
Francois Beauchemin went from a 25 year old complete unknown with 12 games in the NHL to a guy logging 27 minutes per game on arguably the best cup winning team post lockout under Carlyle.

Boudreau gave Mike Green (a former first round pick who was a PPG defenseman his last year of juniors btw) the freedom to basically do whatever he wanted on a team that was absolutely stacked offensively with a great PP, of course he's going to put up huge numbers in that type of environment. Nevermind the fact that Green was at best average defensively and couldn't replicate his success in the postseason when things tightened up defensively.

Boudreau deserves a lot of credit for developing the Caps guys but Carlyle's track record at developing young players to date is just as good as Boudreau's. If you want to give Boudreau the credit for guys like Backstrom, Semin & Ovechkin then you have to give Carlyle credit for how Getzlaf, Perry & Ryan have turned out so far.

Paul4587 is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 09:18 PM
  #293
Seanconn*
mission accomplished
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Manhattan
Country: United States
Posts: 4,267
vCash: 500
Really hope Vatanen gets a chance to strut his stuff next season. 3 offensive defenseman is quite a lot... But maybe he will surprise us defensively... Also, I think Fowler is going to surprise us defensively as well.

Also, considering the ducks are likely to draft a dman in the 2012 draft... They might draft someone able to play immediately... Like Fowler... Although the ducks would have to luck out and draft Murray for that to happen, I think.

Seanconn* is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 09:26 PM
  #294
Gibsons Finest
R-E-L-A-X
 
Gibsons Finest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
Francois Beauchemin went from a 25 year old complete unknown with 12 games in the NHL to a guy logging 27 minutes per game on arguably the best cup winning team post lockout under Carlyle.

Boudreau gave Mike Green (a former first round pick who was a PPG defenseman his last year of juniors btw) the freedom to basically do whatever he wanted on a team that was absolutely stacked offensively with a great PP, of course he's going to put up huge numbers in that type of environment. Nevermind the fact that Green was at best average defensively and couldn't replicate his success in the postseason when things tightened up defensively.

Boudreau deserves a lot of credit for developing the Caps guys but Carlyle's track record at developing young players to date is just as good as Boudreau's. If you want to give Boudreau the credit for guys like Backstrom, Semin & Ovechkin then you have to give Carlyle credit for how Getzlaf, Perry & Ryan have turned out so far.
Forgot about Beauch, so that's true. I give Burke credit with that one too, though, I heard weight issues were one of Beauchemin's bigger problems. And, IMO, Green's still more impressive. Former first rounder, but still not that highly regarded. Does great in the AHL under Boudreau, then explodes in the show under Boudreau. It's more than doing whatever he wanted, they guy wasn't very good defensively and was still a major Norris candidate. Surrounded by great offensive talent or not, what Green did was incredible.

Gibsons Finest is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 09:40 PM
  #295
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 29,649
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ryan Getzlaf View Post
Forgot about Beauch, so that's true. I give Burke credit with that one too, though, I heard weight issues were one of Beauchemin's bigger problems. And, IMO, Green's still more impressive. Former first rounder, but still not that highly regarded. Does great in the AHL under Boudreau, then explodes in the show under Boudreau. It's more than doing whatever he wanted, they guy wasn't very good defensively and was still a major Norris candidate. Surrounded by great offensive talent or not, what Green did was incredible.
Why does Burke get credit? From what I understand, it was Murray who wanted Beauchemin.

Sojourn is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 09:52 PM
  #296
Gibsons Finest
R-E-L-A-X
 
Gibsons Finest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Why does Burke get credit? From what I understand, it was Murray who wanted Beauchemin.
From what I remember hearing, once they acquired him Burke told him to hit the exercise bike. But maybe I'm confused. That's why, not for getting him, but for making him lose weight. But, again, I could've heard or remembered wrong.

Gibsons Finest is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 09:57 PM
  #297
Sojourn
Global Moderator
Where's the kaboom?
 
Sojourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 29,649
vCash: 50
Burke would have very little to do with his conditioning. That's the thing the coaches take care of. That's why it was mentioned that the Maple Leafs were not up to Carlyle's conditioning standards.

Sojourn is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 10:08 PM
  #298
Gibsons Finest
R-E-L-A-X
 
Gibsons Finest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Burke would have very little to do with his conditioning. That's the thing the coaches take care of. That's why it was mentioned that the Maple Leafs were not up to Carlyle's conditioning standards.
Like I said, I remember hearing how Burke was the one who told him right away to lose weight. It wasn't even meant as that serious, a bit of an aside, but wow you sure take it that way.

Gibsons Finest is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 10:08 PM
  #299
Sean Garrity
Shut up and Dance!
 
Sean Garrity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Nut
Country: United States
Posts: 9,822
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Burke would have very little to do with his conditioning. That's the thing the coaches take care of. That's why it was mentioned that the Maple Leafs were not up to Carlyle's conditioning standards.
Didn't BB come to Anaheim and say that the Ducks were not up to BB's conditioning standards? I can't remember if I heard that on a broadcast or read that.

Sean Garrity is offline  
Old
05-27-2012, 10:28 PM
  #300
Paul4587
Moderator
 
Paul4587's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,130
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPGallINYAface View Post
Didn't BB come to Anaheim and say that the Ducks were not up to BB's conditioning standards? I can't remember if I heard that on a broadcast or read that.
I doubt that would be the case considering Carlyle is known for being awfully demanding of his players as far as conditioning goes. Carlyle was definitely critical of the Toronto players conditioning levels when he took over from Wilson in Toronto though. He was also openly critical of Bobby Ryan's build and body fat percentage when Ryan first turned pro and had issues with Beauchemin after we re-acquired him from the Leafs.

Paul4587 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.