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05-27-2012, 11:37 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
The organization doesn't have depth, it has potential. We have forth liners playing the third line and third liners (who can sometimes step up) playing regularly on the 2nd line. We don't even have a true first line. On defense, we have 4 players who, regardless of how good they are, were forced to play too many minutes because there isn't anyone else available in the organization, except cast-offs from other organizations acquired via the waiver wire and tryouts.

This team overachieved--they did great for what they had and who they are. There is a core to build around, but there's still work to be done.
In fairness how many teams have a true first line?

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05-27-2012, 11:40 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Bipolar View Post
if sauer doesn't come back, he could pretty much plug that hole
I think you are either overestimating how far McIlrath has come along or underestimating how good Sauer was. I don't see Mc being an even exchange for Sauer...not just yet anyway.

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05-27-2012, 11:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by gravey9 View Post
Aside from Kreider, I'm not expecting another impact rookie forward to push for a spot next season. At least no one else with top 6 potential.

The forwards most likely to push are JAM, Hrivik, Yogan and Wellman. Are any top 6? Doubtful.

Beyond that, there's St. Croix, Miller, Fasth and Fogarty - and they're all two years away... at least.

If the Rangers decide they need to vastly improve their top 6 forwards next season, it means a trade or FA is coming. Hopefully a more durable, sturdy gamebreaker than Gabby. (parise? ryan? nash - no thank you.)

That said, I would argue the best move by far to improve the offense is not a forward - but the addition of Justin Schultz. A true offensive defenseman with premiere SKATING and VISION would absolutely change the whole complexion of the team in an instant. I think this should be the #1 priority.
You may be right...but the problem is he's not our property (so he doesn't really fit in this thread) and we can't pay more for him than anyone else. So sure, the Rangers could very well be an appealing destination for him...but so are other places.

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05-27-2012, 11:43 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I think you are either overestimating how far McIlrath has come along or underestimating how good Sauer was. I don't see Mc being an even exchange for Sauer...not just yet anyway.
If McIlrath makes the team it will be because he has become as good as Sauer. If he's not as good as Sauer yet, I don't see him making the team

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05-27-2012, 11:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Bipolar View Post
If McIlrath makes the team it will be because he has become as good as Sauer. If he's not as good as Sauer yet, I don't see him making the team
I will be extremely happy if he has improved his game that much in this short period of time. Honestly I would be thrilled if he's even good enough to play 10 minutes a game on the third pair. I mean the kid just turned 20 last month. It might take him another year or three to put his game together.

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05-27-2012, 02:21 PM
  #56
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I would love to see what Thomas and Miller bring next year along w/Yogan as forwards. As for the D look for Erixon and McIlrath make a major push to be on the roster. I would also love to see the Rangers make a play for David Jones, Chris Kelly and see what it would take to get Jarome Iginla, he has on e year left on his $7 mill contract or Bobby Ryan!

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05-27-2012, 03:16 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
From what I've watched (5 or so MJ games, 2 Whale games), McIlrath could basically step in and be Stu Bickel now.

He could play in a pinch but it would not be great for his confidence and long-term development. Or the team's immediate fortunes.

We need to sign at least 1 more NHL 4-5 Dman.
Could and should aren't the same thing. He needs to play 20 mins/game and be in the top 4 to fully develop. Sign some journeyman to play 5-10 mins or Bickel for that role. If McIlrath is really that good, bring him up late in the season. But start him in the A and let him play big minutes vs other teams top lines...

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05-27-2012, 05:03 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
In fairness how many teams have a true first line?
Good teams find players that work well together on the first line. And have enough left over so that first line doesn't get all the attention from the opposing team.

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05-27-2012, 05:08 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by mooskating View Post
idk... if mcilrath is ready i don't see a need for rupp. if he can be moved imo he will be regardless of torts unfounded love for him
Move Rupp for what? A draft pick? He has his uses--regardless of whether McIlrath is ready or not. And you certainly don't want a first round draft pick being a team's fighter, players--especially defenseman--don't learn how to become NHL players from the penalty box.

Rupp is not the problem and he's not going anywhere.

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05-27-2012, 05:30 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
Good teams find players that work well together on the first line. And have enough left over so that first line doesn't get all the attention from the opposing team.
I'm not sure that's really the definition of a real first line though. My point is most teams don't have a "true" first line. Honestly I'm fine with us not having 3 first line guys on the team and more concerned about us having 6 legitimate top 6 players.

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05-27-2012, 05:37 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by RonGreschner View Post
I would love to see what Thomas and Miller bring next year along w/Yogan as forwards. As for the D look for Erixon and McIlrath make a major push to be on the roster. I would also love to see the Rangers make a play for David Jones, Chris Kelly and see what it would take to get Jarome Iginla, he has on e year left on his $7 mill contract or Bobby Ryan!
Iginla will retire a Flame, plain and simple. Just like Ryan Smyth is going to retire an Oiler. Just like Shane Doan will retire a "Jet"/Coyote; these guys have played in the same market for their entire careers (in Smyth's case, for the most part) and have been very vocal in expressing their love for their respective cities. Also I want no part of that massive contract regardless of how long the term is, on top of being almost 35 years old and has been pondering retirement for some time already. Bobby Ryan I wouldn't mind persuing, but it depends on what Anaheim wants for Schultz if we are legitimately targeting him and/or Ryan. If we're going after one, chances are we won't have enough of what they want to go after the other or we won't be willing to give them what they do want.

Who the hell is David Jones..? Cursory glance shows he hasn't played a single full season in the NHL since coming in to the league in 2007 and has been riddled with (some pretty serious) injuries. We need people that are going to - and this may sound crazy - play for us regularly on something other than the 3rd line. The entire team is comprised of 3rd/4th liners and grinders, let's try getting someone who's actually a top-6 player that thinks "shoot first" instead of this nonsensical "everyone gets to touch the puck" style.

What good is Chris Kelly going to do for this team? Nearly 500 games and less offense and size than Brandon Dubinsky. Again, we don't need more 3rd/4th line grinders/energy guys, we need someone with a "shoot first" mentality and will add legitimate scoring depth.

Our biggest hole is our offense and, as always, that is what needs to be addressed first and foremost and, as always, is what exactly will be ignored first and foremost.

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05-27-2012, 05:44 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
I'm not sure that's really the definition of a real first line though. My point is most teams don't have a "true" first line. Honestly I'm fine with us not having 3 first line guys on the team and more concerned about us having 6 legitimate top 6 players.
I don't think we're that far apart--the problem the team seems to have is that every time it appears the missing piece has been found (moving Hagelin to the first line--where he clicked with Richards and Gabby or earlier in the season when Arty moved to wing and clicked with Stapan and Gabby), it opened up another hole. Perhaps having Krieder for the season will fill that hole, but it's also possible that having him in him in the top six moves Hagelin down to the third line--which is probably where he belongs.

In the end, it seems to boil down to the fact that the Rangers have too many holes in their top 9 forwards--there are too many marginal third liners, who sometimes end up playing on the top six because there is/are holes in the top six. The bottom line is the Rangers have found a system that works for the players they have, but in the end there just isn't enough skill to take them much further than they got this year. Something has to change and I'm sure Sather feels the same way. We'll just have to wait and see how drastic it will be.

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05-27-2012, 05:56 PM
  #63
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Iginla will retire a Flame, plain and simple. Just like Ryan Smyth is going to retire an Oiler. Just like Shane Doan will retire a "Jet"/Coyote; these guys have played in the same market for their entire careers (in Smyth's case, for the most part) and have been very vocal in expressing their love for their respective cities. Also I want no part of that massive contract regardless of how long the term is, on top of being almost 35 years old and has been pondering retirement for some time already. Bobby Ryan I wouldn't mind persuing, but it depends on what Anaheim wants for Schultz if we are legitimately targeting him and/or Ryan. If we're going after one, chances are we won't have enough of what they want to go after the other or we won't be willing to give them what they do want.

Who the hell is David Jones..? Cursory glance shows he hasn't played a single full season in the NHL since coming in to the league in 2007 and has been riddled with (some pretty serious) injuries. We need people that are going to - and this may sound crazy - play for us regularly on something other than the 3rd line. The entire team is comprised of 3rd/4th liners and grinders, let's try getting someone who's actually a top-6 player that thinks "shoot first" instead of this nonsensical "everyone gets to touch the puck" style.

What good is Chris Kelly going to do for this team? Nearly 500 games and less offense and size than Brandon Dubinsky. Again, we don't need more 3rd/4th line grinders/energy guys, we need someone with a "shoot first" mentality and will add legitimate scoring depth.

Our biggest hole is our offense and, as always, that is what needs to be addressed first and foremost and, as always, is what exactly will be ignored first and foremost.
David Jones is a big, strong, physical power forward that has scored 27 goals in 10-11 and 20 in 11-12.

He suffered some injuries, that's not an indication of what will be.

The guy may come at a bargain. He's 27. He has a lot of potential.

Adding an extra 20+ goals to this lineup and adding more size, grit, and net presence in the process would be a help.

There aren't many other realistic options.

No big trades will happen. No big FA signings.

The roster that finished #1 in the Conference. And finished with the most ROW. Plus Kreider, Jones, Dubinsky, and Schultz would add much needed scoring depth.

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05-27-2012, 06:10 PM
  #64
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In regards to rookies who could come in and make the roster - I think we need to make a distinction. Hagelin, McDonagh, Stepan and Kreider all have been able to make the jump over the AHL because they played college hockey.

There are fewer examples of prospects coming from junior hockey and stepping in quickly. More often than not junior prospects are younger, have played against physically weaker/smaller players and thus seem to need some time in the AHL to adjust.

The bigger kids like Yogan, McIlrath and Miller can probably handle the jump physically... but all may become more complete players with more development time.

Realistically, we're looking at a one year gap with all of our prospects not named Erixon and Kreider.

This is precisely why it's such a unique moment for management. Do they go for it next season and possibly move some younger assets? Do they take a shot and move a few guys just heading into their prime because they may never be more than top 9 talent?

The hardest decisions in the next season or two will surround players like Del Zotto, Stepan, Prust, Boyle, Dubinsky, Hagelin - assessing whether or not we move them because they can be replaced by cheaper options coming up through the prospect ranks.

While the cap era forces teams to hold onto their prospects longer. It also makes 25 year old 3rd line players on the verge of free agency, hard to keep on the team they were drafted by. It's just not cost effective to give the Dubinskies 4 mil a year. How long can you keep together a 12 million dollar 3rd line with a 63 mil payroll cap?

Really fascinating time for the Rangers over the next two seasons as their youth comes into their prime... and more youth knocks on the door in 2014.

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05-27-2012, 07:35 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
David Jones is a big, strong, physical power forward that has scored 27 goals in 10-11 and 20 in 11-12.

He suffered some injuries, that's not an indication of what will be.

The guy may come at a bargain. He's 27. He has a lot of potential.

Adding an extra 20+ goals to this lineup and adding more size, grit, and net presence in the process would be a help.

There aren't many other realistic options.

No big trades will happen. No big FA signings.

The roster that finished #1 in the Conference. And finished with the most ROW. Plus Kreider, Jones, Dubinsky, and Schultz would add much needed scoring depth.
Prior to his 27-goal season, he had played 1 full season..except across the span of 3 seasons. Just because he's a "realistic" option doesn't mean we should jump all over him just for the sake of getting what's available in hopes of him potting ~20 for us on top of staying healthy. The injuries are no indication of what he may be, but it sure is an indication that he hasn't stayed healthy for the last 6-7 years. Could and was the same said about Gaborik's health history? Of course, but I highly doubt Jones is as effective as Gaborik is at what he specializes in.

Short and sweet is he would be fighting for a spot on the 3rd/4th lines, which is exactly the type of players we shouldn't be actively trying to acquire. Why did we get John Scott, to buff up our tough guy identity? And what did he do? Nothing. Why? Because we already have Rupp, Prust, Boyle (to some extent), Cally, etc. Jones and Dubinsky are almost identical in size and have been about equal in production relative to games played. Crazy idea, why don't we utilize Dubi how we would utilize Jones? Or teach the big bodies on the team how to effectively use their size?

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05-27-2012, 08:03 PM
  #66
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They need more size and grit for the playoffs if they don't have any huge gamebreakers like a Malkin, Datsyuk, Stamkos, even Kopitar.

That's why someone like a Jones is essential.

But as prospects, the only one who fits this mold is Yogan and I just worry about his health.

Hrivik should be signed this offseason and could be a nice prospect/20 goal sniper.

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05-27-2012, 08:04 PM
  #67
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I understand the concern.

But David Jones would not be battling for a fourth line role. And he's nothing like Rupp.

The guy can score. Goals don't have to be pretty.

Every player gets hurt. You can't always avoid injury. He had a knee injury and a shoulder injury. It wasn't a head injury or a genetic issue.

Its not jumping on him because he's the only realistic option. He's good option. He has a lot of potential to improve. He's still young at 27.

They're not breaking the bank or selling the farm or half the roster for Nash or Parise. As much as i want Ryan or Parise, its not happening.

Jones would be an upgrade to Fedotenko and Mitchell. He can play in the top six/top nine.

You have to look at the overall depth improvement.

A full year of Kreider and Hagelin. A return of form for Dubinsky. Add Jones. Add Schultz. That's solid offensive depth added.

With Miller on the way.

I believe there will be some natural progression from our young players.


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05-27-2012, 08:19 PM
  #68
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If Yogan is spending prime development years on the 4th line of this team, I'm going to lose my mind.

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05-27-2012, 09:58 PM
  #69
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I don't know if I'm ready to guarantee Kreider a roster spot just yet. If he has a bad camp, especially if we add a winger from elsewhere, he could end up in Hartford.

If McIlrath makes the team we'll end up in the same situation we were this year, IMO. Relying far too heavily on our top defensive guys.

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05-27-2012, 10:00 PM
  #70
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I don't know if I'm ready to guarantee Kreider a roster spot just yet. If he has a bad camp, especially if we add a winger from elsewhere, he could end up in Hartford.

If McIlrath makes the team we'll end up in the same situation we were this year, IMO. Relying far too heavily on our top defensive guys.
You're insane if you think he even sniffs Hartford out of camp, not a chance in hell.

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05-27-2012, 10:21 PM
  #71
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You're insane if you think he even sniffs Hartford out of camp, not a chance in hell.
If they make a play for someone like Rick Nash or any top 6 forward without losing anyone else, Kreider's going to have to earn a spot on the team.

The reason players like Stepan and Hagelin never went back to Hartford was because they're very solid away from the puck and they rarely turn it over. Kreider's got a ways to go, and it won't shock me if Torts doesn't want to deal with the growing pains if he has other sources of scoring to rely on.

Callahan and Del Zotto both made trips down to Hartford after establishing themselves a lot more than Kreider has established himself.

To just assume he's made the team when he's never even played a regular season game is foolish.

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05-27-2012, 10:24 PM
  #72
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Top 4 two-way defenseman who chips in 30-40 points a year and is more than solid defensively. Think McD without elite defensive play
That sounds like a poor man's MDZ. Giving up 2 2nds I hope he's more than that.

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05-27-2012, 11:17 PM
  #73
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If they make a play for someone like Rick Nash or any top 6 forward without losing anyone else, Kreider's going to have to earn a spot on the team.

The reason players like Stepan and Hagelin never went back to Hartford was because they're very solid away from the puck and they rarely turn it over. Kreider's got a ways to go, and it won't shock me if Torts doesn't want to deal with the growing pains if he has other sources of scoring to rely on.

Callahan and Del Zotto both made trips down to Hartford after establishing themselves a lot more than Kreider has established himself.

To just assume he's made the team when he's never even played a regular season game is foolish.
Fine we agree to disagree. Tortorella specifically said he will teach him defense in his press conference. There is no f-ing way he starts in Hartford.

To say he doesn't necessarily have a spot on the roster after he played in playoff games and improved to the point he was one of the better forwards on the team is more foolish.

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05-28-2012, 12:40 AM
  #74
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They could sign Parise and another top 6 forward and Kreider still makes the team out of camp. That much is certain imo. I'm not saying he's a lock for the first line...but there's 0 chance he's not on the team this fall if he's still playing hockey.

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05-29-2012, 06:01 PM
  #75
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I watched Yogan play with the Whale this year and it was CLEAR that he needs a year at the AHL level he was good, not dominant. IMO needs a year with the Whale to develop and learn the pro game.

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