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Spacek/Gill confirm Martin is garbage coach, Gauthier senile old man, Cunney a puppet

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Old
05-26-2012, 09:57 PM
  #301
Whitesnake
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
For that statistic to be meaningful, you have to compare the fraction of Russian players who never played here to North American born players who never played here. And I'd pick a reasonable cutoff, 100 games of NHL experience, rather than 0. It's a difficult comparison.
You do know that the NA players that never plays here REALLY mean that they were not good enough 'cause fo them, there are no real alternatives. Which you can't say it's the case for Russians and some other Euros.

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05-26-2012, 10:17 PM
  #302
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So Trotz and Polie suspended them for sweet nothing... ? You really think these two guys are dummies ?
Poile suspended them for breaking curfew. There was an 11pm curfew that they didn't respect. He wanted to send a clear message to them.

Trotz opted to keep both of them out for a 2nd game. The team had rallied behind the GM and delivered him a win because they endorsed the message. That even if you are the two leading scorers, you need to follow the team's rules. But Trotz made a mistake keeping them out for a 2nd game.

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05-26-2012, 10:39 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Poile suspended them for breaking curfew. There was an 11pm curfew that they didn't respect. He wanted to send a clear message to them.

Trotz opted to keep both of them out for a 2nd game. The team had rallied behind the GM and delivered him a win because they endorsed the message.
Nice narrative. IMHO, it's more like "they got away with it" rather than "the team rallied".

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05-26-2012, 11:58 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Problem is that when you start comparing Martin to what we had...was it that hard to be better than any of those guys? I mean, for how many years have we had rookies after rookies? And then the great Bob Gainey coached that team. So saying Martin was the best we had, doesn't mean he was great. It means....he was the best we had. So the team took a nosedive....well again with another rookie, and a rookie who might not be as good as some thought he was. And then strangely, Martin had all the excuses in the world as far as injuries are concerned, yet Cunneyworth could not have used the same excuses?

Don't get me wrong. Martin was not as awful as some things he is. But to maybe think that you'd even go as far as re-hiring him back? Or just saying that he would be one of the best coaches in the league? Don't think so. Yet, if I'M another team....I would be tempted to give him a shot. Martin deserves another shot WAY MORE than Gauthier should.....again though....that's not necessarily a great thing to say for Jacques....
The debate will be endless and there are good points on both sides, but for me, you don't fire a coach 4 pts out of the playoff spot after a great run of wins ... and the team was looking like it was going to shape up. We went to the ECF with a team sitting 10th at the all star break 2 years ago, it had been done before ... Don't know what difference it made to put randy ... let martin coach through the season and see what happens. The evidence points out at letting martin finish the season. Now that hardly makes him a better coach than mr. x or Y , but there has to be some sympathy towards martin for working with who he worked and how. He made a lot of players better, and that includes A.kos and Carey price , by letting him on the bench watch halak. That's all hard decisions, hard paths to walk through ... and frankly I admire that he did what he did with the conviction that it was the best thing for the club - probably the very same thing that cost him his job - .

the way the team was put up by gauthier in the summer + the dumb camp with too many games in a row to make money instead of getting the roster to gel ... all that is hardly martin's fault and its what I think caused, for the most part, our poor start of the season.

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05-27-2012, 12:55 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
The debate will be endless and there are good points on both sides, but for me, you don't fire a coach 4 pts out of the playoff spot after a great run of wins ... and the team was looking like it was going to shape up. We went to the ECF with a team sitting 10th at the all star break 2 years ago, it had been done before ... Don't know what difference it made to put randy ... let martin coach through the season and see what happens. The evidence points out at letting martin finish the season. Now that hardly makes him a better coach than mr. x or Y , but there has to be some sympathy towards martin for working with who he worked and how. He made a lot of players better, and that includes A.kos and Carey price , by letting him on the bench watch halak. That's all hard decisions, hard paths to walk through ... and frankly I admire that he did what he did with the conviction that it was the best thing for the club - probably the very same thing that cost him his job - .

the way the team was put up by gauthier in the summer + the dumb camp with too many games in a row to make money instead of getting the roster to gel ... all that is hardly martin's fault and its what I think caused, for the most part, our poor start of the season.
I was NEVER for the firing of Martin. I wasn't a Martin fan but kept wanting to let him finish the year and see after. Made no sense to fire him then. And absolutely made no sense to replace him with a unilingual coach when most sane people knew exactly how it would turned out to be. Pierre Gauthier meets Jean Charest, when 2 people make decisions while not having a single clue of the turn of events immediatley after. Dumb and dumber.

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05-27-2012, 01:03 AM
  #306
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Yeah, where are the Habs ever going to find a guy who will miss 20 games, score 20 odd goals and make 7 million dollars each of hte next 2 years?

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05-27-2012, 02:05 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I was NEVER for the firing of Martin. I wasn't a Martin fan but kept wanting to let him finish the year and see after. Made no sense to fire him then. And absolutely made no sense to replace him with a unilingual coach when most sane people knew exactly how it would turned out to be. Pierre Gauthier meets Jean Charest, when 2 people make decisions while not having a single clue of the turn of events immediatley after. Dumb and dumber.
couldn't have pictured it better ,

the only thing that bugs me is that gauthier and gainey seemed to have been 2 control freaks ... and honestly I wonder how he/they let the coaches coach, the scouts scout ... how intrusive was he/were they when martin was coaching ... and when randy was ?

is it possible that we haven't seen the best of them - martin and randy - ? because they werent given the chance to coach to the level they are able to ... each having their own vision... compromised by the social disorder of one single man?


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05-27-2012, 09:27 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Martin is one of the best things that has happened to this team in years. The immediate nosedive we took right after his firing proves that. If he was around in 2008 we could have won the cup.
Nice work on that one.

Quote:
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this," is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one."

Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.

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05-27-2012, 09:56 AM
  #309
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Nice work on that one.
Right, but in this case, it's actually applicable.

I don't care if people want to say Gauthier was the one coaching, or Molson for all I care. At the end of the day, RC was the one behind the bench, and our team really looked bad amd worse under him.

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05-27-2012, 10:01 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by THE HOFF View Post
but there has to be some sympathy towards martin for working with who he worked and how. He made a lot of players better, and that includes A.kos and Carey price , by letting him on the bench watch halak.
I don't think he made either Kostitsyn or Price better players... of course there is no way to prove it either way but part of his problem was how he mishandled players.

Do you remember when Kostitsyn asked, 'what do I need to work on to get more ice time,' and there was no response. It was actually quoted in an interview about a year ago. There were many who dismissed that conversation as trivial at the time but now Spacek has come out and basically confirmed that view.

So if he wasn't communicating, exactly how did he make his players better. If sitting them down and letting them figure it out for themselves is the approach... then that is not coaching.

Maybe the timing of Martin's release was poor but the decision was not.

As a side note, I see that you are one of those who keeps deluding himself that "Martin got us to the Eastern Conference Finals." It is really difficult to take anyone seriously, including hockey broadcasters, who continues to support that position.

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05-27-2012, 11:58 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I was NEVER for the firing of Martin. I wasn't a Martin fan but kept wanting to let him finish the year and see after. Made no sense to fire him then. And absolutely made no sense to replace him with a unilingual coach when most sane people knew exactly how it would turned out to be. Pierre Gauthier meets Jean Charest, when 2 people make decisions while not having a single clue of the turn of events immediatley after. Dumb and dumber.
Some people are disconnected big time from reality...

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05-27-2012, 12:10 PM
  #312
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None specific, but there's certainly talks that Russians are getting underdrafted -- mind you it's a lot because of the KHL "flight risk".



In fairness Parise is the more complete player, but I totally want to see the Habs go after Semin. He could do wonders on DD's wing as a soft-minutes exploitation scorer.
Russia always has players at or near the top of the talent pool. The problem, historically, and there is more than enough evidence to support this, is that their high end players are more interested in personal goals than team ones. Unless they're given star treatment they threaten to bolt for the KHL. Part of it is their agents fault and there were rumors of Russian mafia, but in the end, Russians are risky to draft. Of the ones we drafted (lets leave Kovalev out of it) how many didn't become a distraction or problem of some sort... I don't disagree with how Martin treated Sergei. I do disagree with how PG and BG dealt with it, he was a distraction yes, but to give away an RFA with that much talent for nothing is inexcusable.

DO NOT WANT SEMIN.... or any other Russians for that matter.

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05-27-2012, 12:21 PM
  #313
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Russia always has players at or near the top of the talent pool. The problem, historically, and there is more than enough evidence to support this, is that their high end players are more interested in personal goals than team ones. Unless they're given star treatment they threaten to bolt for the KHL. Part of it is their agents fault and there were rumors of Russian mafia, but in the end, Russians are risky to draft. Of the ones we drafted (lets leave Kovalev out of it) how many didn't become a distraction or problem of some sort... I don't disagree with how Martin treated Sergei. I do disagree with how PG and BG dealt with it, he was a distraction yes, but to give away an RFA with that much talent for nothing is inexcusable.

DO NOT WANT SEMIN.... or any other Russians for that matter.

Semin was one of the Caps best forwards in the playoffs this year. If anything he's been working harder than Ovi.

The thing is, Russians rarely grow up dreaming of playing in the NHL. A few love it, but for most, it's about the money. Other Europeans are different in that they are exposed to the NHL more, and their own leagues won't pay them as well as the KHL, so even role players have financial incentives to try North America.

The Habs record with Russians is no more mixed than it is with Canadians or Americans. Why do we have most of our scouts in the US after David Fischer, and now Kristo staying an extra year in college when it may stall his development?

Yes you have to be careful with Russians, for one most will get significant offers from the KHL (can you really blame some for wanting to go home if they will get paid as much or more?), second there is some adaptation issues as most start learning English at a later age than other Europeans (but even this is a generalization that isn't always true).

Russians generally enjoy Montreal for what it's worth. Markov was one of our best draft picks. Kovalev, for all his issues, had the second best seasons of his career in Montreal. Most of the biggest disappointments were Russians drafted or signed in the late 90s and early 00s when the Habs scouting was terrible across the world, not just in Russia.

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05-27-2012, 01:38 PM
  #314
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I don't think he made either Kostitsyn or Price better players... of course there is no way to prove it either way but part of his problem was how he mishandled players.

Do you remember when Kostitsyn asked, 'what do I need to work on to get more ice time,' and there was no response. It was actually quoted in an interview about a year ago. There were many who dismissed that conversation as trivial at the time but now Spacek has come out and basically confirmed that view.

So if he wasn't communicating, exactly how did he make his players better. If sitting them down and letting them figure it out for themselves is the approach... then that is not coaching.

Maybe the timing of Martin's release was poor but the decision was not.

As a side note, I see that you are one of those who keeps deluding himself that "Martin got us to the Eastern Conference Finals." It is really difficult to take anyone seriously, including hockey broadcasters, who continues to support that position.
It is just as difficult to take anyone seriously who continues to support that Martin had no influence on it either.

Without Halak and Cammy, we don't get past the first round. I don't think anybody would deny that. However, this doesn't mean Martin didn't help the whole team move forward as well.

Every one played a role, even Perry Pearn.

Martin's handling of certain players was poor. I never shied away from criticizing it. But in terms of structure, he did help some players, like AK, who improved quite a bit defensively. Same for Eller. At the same time, I didn't like the way he used those guys most of the time.

But let's not pretend like the man was a poison and did nothing here.

You're contradicting yourself by saying the timing of his release was poor but the decision wasn't.
If the timing was poor, then the decision to release him was bad.
I understand your thought behind it, but it wasn't the right decision unless you wanted us to fall down the standings and trade some of our depth away.
Also, this decision may end up being even worse if we replace him with a coaching-moron like Carbo.

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05-27-2012, 02:08 PM
  #315
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Why are we rechewing cud? There's a new management and hopefully a new era. Martin is gone, Gauthier is gone. Neither is in a position to do the Habs any harm. Now let Bergevin make hay with the draft choices left him by the Habs' dismal finish and Gauthier's clutch of second rounders. Who knows, Gauthier may have been doing the Habs a favor in the long run?

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05-27-2012, 03:10 PM
  #316
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Spacek made Gauthier sound like an out of touch dictator. However I think the thread title is misleading especially for Martin. He said martin was not a communicator, and that his style didn't fit the club, but he also said that he didn't mind him either.

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05-27-2012, 03:40 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Poile suspended them for breaking curfew. There was an 11pm curfew that they didn't respect. He wanted to send a clear message to them.

Trotz opted to keep both of them out for a 2nd game. The team had rallied behind the GM and delivered him a win because they endorsed the message. That even if you are the two leading scorers, you need to follow the team's rules. But Trotz made a mistake keeping them out for a 2nd game.
If you ask me the mistake they made was letting Radulov come back that late into the season.

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05-27-2012, 04:25 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Why are we rechewing cud? There's a new management and hopefully a new era. Martin is gone, Gauthier is gone. Neither is in a position to do the Habs any harm. Now let Bergevin make hay with the draft choices left him by the Habs' dismal finish and Gauthier's clutch of second rounders. Who knows, Gauthier may have been doing the Habs a favor in the long run?
Quebecers love to chasticise.

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05-27-2012, 08:57 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Why are we rechewing cud? There's a new management and hopefully a new era. Martin is gone, Gauthier is gone. Neither is in a position to do the Habs any harm. Now let Bergevin make hay with the draft choices left him by the Habs' dismal finish and Gauthier's clutch of second rounders. Who knows, Gauthier may have been doing the Habs a favor in the long run?
Funny part is that some who kept bashing the bashers for the Gainey-Gauthier era are already questioning Bergevin for moves he didn't even make yet....while the season hasn't even started yet....

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05-27-2012, 09:14 PM
  #320
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Funny part is that some who kept bashing the bashers for the Gainey-Gauthier era are already questioning Bergevin for moves he didn't even make yet....while the season hasn't even started yet....
WHat moves are being questioned? The Dudley move? I hope not. All moves made to date have been credible moves.....granted they have not been blockbuster trades or anything.....but moves to solidify Habs management.

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05-27-2012, 09:53 PM
  #321
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Nice work on that one.
Other factors such as what? We had the same team, but instantly started losing. We weren't even just losing, we started getting blown out. Every game we played was close, but we were being pasted on a regular basis. That was all on the coaching. We tried to open it up, only to find that we only had 2 players on the team who could score goals, so we got dominated, quite heavily. You can't pull off factors like injury or trade either because

A) We were just as injured under Martin
B) we didn't start unloading until well after we were out of contention

Of course the year before we had pretty much the same team and comfortably made the playoffs, and were right in the thick of things this season before the coaching change. You can call it a fallacy all you want, but the facts all point to one thing, and that was downgrading from exceptional coaching to poor coaching on a team that was already not very good on paper.

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05-27-2012, 09:57 PM
  #322
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interesting note on e. staal "the guy wanted out of there"

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05-27-2012, 10:56 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Other factors such as what? We had the same team, but instantly started losing. We weren't even just losing, we started getting blown out. Every game we played was close, but we were being pasted on a regular basis. That was all on the coaching. We tried to open it up, only to find that we only had 2 players on the team who could score goals, so we got dominated, quite heavily. You can't pull off factors like injury or trade either because

A) We were just as injured under Martin
B) we didn't start unloading until well after we were out of contention

Of course the year before we had pretty much the same team and comfortably made the playoffs, and were right in the thick of things this season before the coaching change. You can call it a fallacy all you want, but the facts all point to one thing, and that was downgrading from exceptional coaching to poor coaching on a team that was already not very good on paper.
Again, Martin being a better coach than RC doesn't mean JM was the best thing happening to the Habs in years. Please...

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05-27-2012, 10:59 PM
  #324
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Again, Martin being a better coach than RC doesn't mean JM was the best thing happening to the Habs in years. Please...
He was the only coach that's been able to get this team to show up night after night for almost 20 years, and by far the most difficult team to play against we've seen. No team was able to walk over over, and that all changed over night. If we had a coach of Martin's caliber earlier we could have won a cup, instead we had guys who were not qualified to coach in the NHL like Therrien and Carbo.

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05-27-2012, 11:11 PM
  #325
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
He was the only coach that's been able to get this team to show up night after night for almost 20 years, and by far the most difficult team to play against we've seen. No team was able to walk over over, and that all changed over night. If we had a coach of Martin's caliber earlier we could have won a cup, instead we had guys who were not qualified to coach in the NHL like Therrien and Carbo.
And how many cup Martin has so far in his coaching career in the NHL?

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