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Old
05-28-2012, 12:45 AM
  #326
Morozov
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
Like I mentioned earlier, Pens shouldn't expect to fill all of their team needs by trading J.Staal. He's a good talent that could walk with getting anything in return for him. I get not needing another offensive dman. Subsitute him for Harrison. Cheap and very reliable dman (I'm sure plenty of Pens fans are going to freak out because they don't recognize who he is..).

And yeah, Pens need a RH shot, but to say no to Jokinen because he's a lefty is dumb. The guy would be playing on your first line.. Why do you guys think all of your team needs need to be filled through trading J.Staal? There is free agency.. Parenteau, Whitney..

Sullivan and Asham are off the books as of right now, right? And Cooke and Dupuis have one more year left, right? There are going to be holes and opportunities to get that RH hander. Jokinen IS a good player who WOULD improve this team..
Pens fans don't expect to fill all of their team needs by trading Staal, but they certainly expect to fill some of them, which your offer does not do.

People aren't turning Jokinen down just because he's a lefty, they're turning him down because he isn't a fit for DB's system. You need to get this through your head, that isn't a slight on Jokinen, that's how DB's teams play. Plenty of talented wingers have come and gone poorly here, they aren't poor players, they just don't fit in here.

Nobody is saying Jokinen isn't a good player so you don't need to be trying to tell people otherwise. Your offer doesn't satisfy what the Pens would want, time for you to get over that.

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05-28-2012, 12:45 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I don't think you get it. I'm not talking about talent. I'm talking about style of play. Why do you think that guys like Fedotenko, Ponikarovski, Sykora, Satan, and others get benched here and go elsewhere and contribute but yet the likes of Dupuis and Craig Adams get quality minutes over others...

So calm down with the YOU trust me crap when you don't even comprehend what our needs our and how our staff plays people.
Oye.. If you place Jokinen in the same category as those players while they played for the Pens, then you perception of Jokinen is way off.

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05-28-2012, 12:51 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
Like I mentioned earlier, Pens shouldn't expect to fill all of their team needs by trading J.Staal. He's a good talent that could walk with getting anything in return for him. I get not needing another offensive dman. Subsitute him for Harrison. Cheap and very reliable dman (I'm sure plenty of Pens fans are going to freak out because they don't recognize who he is..).
If they don't fill needs for Staal, there's no reason to deal him, it's as simple as that.

Staal's potential impact for a season plus playoff run > "your guys who don't fit our needs" for a few years. Argue it to you're blue in the face, we won't agree.

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05-28-2012, 12:51 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
If you don't comprehend what I said above, I can't explain it to you anymore. It doesn't have anything to do with Jokinen's point totals. It has to do with what Bylsma looks for in his wingers. When they don't do what he wants, they sit. Jokinen would sit plain and simple.

Cal Clutterbuck would be a premier winger in Bylsma's system. Just how **** is with Bylsma.

It's like some fan's can't comprehend this and want to argue Jokinen's 12 goals and supreme talent are so great that we're going to smash a square peg into a round hole even though Bylsma has clearly demonstrated in the past that if you don't play the wing like how he wants it played you don't play.

So instead of asking me if I watch the NHL at all, maybe you should start watching the Pens. Then you would clearly know this.
All the players you mentioned earlier have done nothing since leaving the Penguins. So who are these highly talented wingers that Bylsma's been benching again?

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05-28-2012, 12:53 AM
  #330
Jules Winnfield
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Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
Oye.. If you place Jokinen in the same category as those players while they played for the Pens, then you perception of Jokinen is way off.
Fedotenko, Ponikarovski, Sykora, and Satan all had more goals prior to their Bylsma benchings than Jokinen did last year.

We don't need a shootout specialist that can't help in the post-season.

You can argue this all you want but you're not going to win this debate on trying to sell a player that wouldn't fit well in Bylsma's system. We've seen it OVER and OVER and OVER with Bylsma's system and what he wants and who plays.

I just don't understand why you don't get it. It's like we're not telling you that Jokinen is a bad player or something. We're telling you we don't want to take another chance with a player like that in the organization because the odds are he's going to get benched.

I'm sure Shero will trade Staal to a team that listens and has players that fit our needs. Not just trade him to someone who keeps trying to argue why their players fit our team so well when they don't even clearly know our team needs by arguing this over and over again.

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05-28-2012, 12:55 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
All the players you mentioned earlier have done nothing since leaving the Penguins. So who are these highly talented wingers that Bylsma's been benching again?
Fedotenko played pretty damn well in this year's playoffs.

Ponikarovski and Sykora have been decent for the Devils this year. Sykora did well after coming back from a bad shoulder injury.

Satan had a decent playoff run for the Bruins after he left us.

So yes they have all contributed after leaving the Pens.

Ponikarovski had over 20 goals in Toronto before coming to us and looked like complete dog dung in Bylsma's system. Looks pretty decent now playing with Kovy.

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05-28-2012, 12:59 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Fedotenko played pretty damn well in this year's playoffs.

Ponikarovski and Sykora have been decent for the Devils this year. Sykora did well after coming back from a bad shoulder injury.

Satan had a decent playoff run for the Bruins after he left us.

So yes they have all contributed after leaving the Pens.

Ponikarovski had over 20 goals in Toronto before coming to us and looked like complete dog dung in Bylsma's system. Looks pretty decent now playing with Kovy.
All of those guys have had their best seasons in recent years playing with the Penguins. I thought the Pens system made them look so terrible and that elsewhere they were highly talented offensive players? None of those guys played in big roles for any team since leaving the Penguins so maybe they just weren't that good?

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05-28-2012, 01:04 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Fedotenko played pretty damn well in this year's playoffs.

Ponikarovski and Sykora have been decent for the Devils this year. Sykora did well after coming back from a bad shoulder injury.

Satan had a decent playoff run for the Bruins after he left us.

So yes they have all contributed after leaving the Pens.

Ponikarovski had over 20 goals in Toronto before coming to us and looked like complete dog dung in Bylsma's system. Looks pretty decent now playing with Kovy.
Come on.. Ponikarovski and Satan haven't even cracked the 15 goal mark since leaving Pittsburgh..

If Pens management really thinks Jokinen wouldn't be able to contribute at all, then they won't make the deal. I just don't agree. No harm done. Everyone smile.

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05-28-2012, 01:09 AM
  #334
Jules Winnfield
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Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
Come on.. Ponikarovski and Satan haven't even cracked the 15 goal mark since leaving Pittsburgh..
And 200 NHLers scored more goals than Jokinen last season...

I'm sure Shero isn't salivating to add him to the lineup.

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05-28-2012, 01:11 AM
  #335
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It is true, the Hawks have taken home the top prize more recently than the Penguins. And yet I don't act like my team is without flaws like you.
We recognize our flaws. In fact, we were explicit in naming one of them (an RH threat for the PP) which outlined why your proposal wasn't attractive enough to make us want to deal Staal.

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05-28-2012, 01:13 AM
  #336
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We recognize our flaws. In fact, we were even explicit in naming one of them (an RH threat for the PP) which outlined why your proposal wasn't attractive enough to make us want to deal Staal.
The only thing I've heard attractive enough for your crowd is Bobby Ryan.. and I don't see any Anaheim fans running in to give you Bobby Ryan for Jordan Staal.

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05-28-2012, 01:19 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
The only thing I've heard attractive enough for your crowd is Bobby Ryan.. and I don't see any Anaheim fans running in to give you Bobby Ryan for Jordan Staal.
I like Sharp too.

Oh, I know nobody's running to give us actual real live scoring wingers, because it's nice to pretend that they could get a contributing young player from a contender for a collection of disposable assets. Just like Dallas fans thought Goligoski for Neal was off-base. Turns out it was...they had to add.

I've also been on record as saying I'd be intrigued by a deal involving Coyle or Bjugstad, because they replace some of what Staal brings while addressing our need for a skilled RH shot.

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05-28-2012, 01:59 AM
  #338
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The way a couple posters are trying to justify trade proposals makes me think Carolina and Chicago would reallt like to have JS?


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05-28-2012, 07:48 AM
  #339
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It's convenient to use career stats when the player on the opposite side broke out big-time offensively last year, isn't it?
You should pick one side of the road and drive on it vs. crossing over to both sides.

Look, you refused to even attempt a comparison between the two because you clearly don't know Bolland's game. You kept citing "hard evidence" but provided none. I gave you both an analysis, which showed you don't have a handle on even base concepts, and then actually pointed to relevant hard evidence.

It shows their production - your key reference point - is very similar over their careers. Yes, Staal had the better year this past year, nobody questions it. But, as you often point out, he had a more offensive role so no real surprise. And will he sustain it or backslide a la Dubinsky?

But even with Staal's breakout year in the regular season and playoffs, there is still little difference in career regular season production. But a huge one, as I have maintained, in the postseason.

Your spin is both all to predicable and all too amusing.

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05-28-2012, 08:45 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
First of all, Staal has not been used in a checking role for quite sometime, except for a couple dozen games spread over the last couple of years. Any Pens fan who understands assignments and roles will echo that. With Malkin and Crosby's injuries he has been asked to play a more traditional scoring role. Checking duties went to Dupuis, Park, Jeffrey, Vitale etc.

As far as Jeffrey, again you are throwing crap agt the wall and hoping it makes sense. He never played as a scoring pivot in WBS. He was the third line center, then he was moved into the top 6 his final season as a winger. So where you got the idea he played as a scoring center, beats me.

Finally, you are still beating around the bush that your post was hypocritical. I'm still trying to figure out how you can justify trying to call me out on "devaluing Sutter" then in the next breathe you blow off Jeffrey, and it is plain as day you know little about him.

So again I can't look at Sutter from a point production stand point and feel he isn't a big upgrade over Jeffrey in that manner, but you can tell me Jeffrey will never do this or that, even though you know next to nothing about him.
Ok, let me simplify it for you. Yes, Staal played a more offensive role but to say he still wasn't used as the primary match-up against top lines, is simply not correct. He most certainly was. It was not the traditional shutdown role in that they needed offense too but if you think he wasn't out there against top lines, you weren't paying attention.

On Jeffrey which is it? You said he was being groomed to be a checking line center. Yet, he only played that role in his first AHL season. Thereafter he led the team in scoring and by your own account played a scoring role in his last season. Yeah, he was moved to wing but he also centered the top line for a time. That's why I said it's not a lock that he can play a shutdown C role in the NHL, as he came into his pro career as a scorer and was also asked to score in the AHL as his career progressed.

As far as Sutter you started out by making silly comments like he might have a tough time transitioning into the Pens' system. I pointed out that m2m wouldn't be an issue for him as he played it under Maurice. You want to claim I don't know what I'm talking about? So Sutter has proven himself in the NHL and in the same system, yet you think Jeffrey who is a favorite of yours but doesn't have Sutter's track record will produce about the same? Given everything I've outlined, it's a real stretch to think Jeffrey will just step in and produce at Sutter's past levels, and Sutter would be getting a significant upgrade in wingers.

Your primary point came down to point production. I stated that was ignoring other aspects of the role and hypocritical in that Staal's point totals at 3C were always minimized because of various factors. But you want to judge Sutter mostly on point totals. It's really not that hard to understand.

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05-28-2012, 09:18 AM
  #341
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And 200 NHLers scored more goals than Jokinen last season...

I'm sure Shero isn't salivating to add him to the lineup.
So...Martin has an off year and Carolina fans are supposed to ignore that and accpet that he would instantly become one of our best dmen, but Jokinen has so-so year and Pens fans laugh him off. Ok.

I stand by my opinion that Jokinen would instantly be one of your best wingers.

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05-28-2012, 09:27 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
So...Martin has an off year and Carolina fans are supposed to ignore that and accpet that he would instantly become one of our best dmen, but Jokinen has so-so year and Pens fans laugh him off. Ok.

I stand by my opinion that Jokinen would instantly be one of your best wingers.
3rd best, maybe 4th if Dupuis can repeat what he did last year (Jokinen definitely has more talent than Duper but he fits the system perfectly).

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05-28-2012, 09:27 AM
  #343
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I stand by my opinion that Jokinen would instantly be one of your best wingers.
There are a lot of off-base valuations being thrown around here but that's not one of the examples. Jokinen would be down the list of their wingers and certainly not one of their best. Neal and Kunitz are significantly better and Dupuis is better. He would be one of the better playmaking wingers but still wouldn't play in the top 6 there even with Sullivan leaving an opening.

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05-28-2012, 09:35 AM
  #344
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Ok, let me simplify it for you. Yes, Staal played a more offensive role but to say he still wasn't used as the primary match-up against top lines, is simply not correct. He most certainly was. It was not the traditional shutdown role in that they needed offense too but if you think he wasn't out there against top lines, you weren't paying attention.

On Jeffrey which is it? You said he was being groomed to be a checking line center. Yet, he only played that role in his first AHL season. Thereafter he led the team in scoring and by your own account played a scoring role in his last season. Yeah, he was moved to wing but he also centered the top line for a time. That's why I said it's not a lock that he can play a shutdown C role in the NHL, as he came into his pro career as a scorer and was also asked to score in the AHL as his career progressed.

As far as Sutter you started out by making silly comments like he might have a tough time transitioning into the Pens' system. I pointed out that m2m wouldn't be an issue for him as he played it under Maurice. You want to claim I don't know what I'm talking about? So Sutter has proven himself in the NHL and in the same system, yet you think Jeffrey who is a favorite of yours but doesn't have Sutter's track record will produce about the same? Given everything I've outlined, it's a real stretch to think Jeffrey will just step in and produce at Sutter's past levels, and Sutter would be getting a significant upgrade in wingers.

Your primary point came down to point production. I stated that was ignoring other aspects of the role and hypocritical in that Staal's point totals at 3C were always minimized because of various factors. But you want to judge Sutter mostly on point totals. It's really not that hard to understand.
It's gotten more than a little comical how you have beaten so far around the bush about your hypocrisy... It's as if you think if you make up enough BS, you will finally be right. In essence you have no idea about Jeffrey, his game, what roles he played in WBS or in the NHL, but you didn't let that stop you from making definitive statements about him.

As I said, just stop. The more you post, the more it shows how little you know about Staal and Jeffrey.

I never pretended to know much about Sutter's game, but you continue to embarrass yourself and make things up about two players I clearly know more about than you. That shouldn't even be up for debate, given how much misinformation you have spread about both of them in your last few posts to me.

According to you, Jeffrey was in the A this season. He hasn't been in the A since late 2010. You continue to throw out BS about Jeffrey and the role Staal has played for the last two seasons. I can assure you I have a much better grasp of the Pens system, roles and assignments than you. Yet you continue to get yourself deeper and deeper in BS trying to save face.

Again, stop pretending you know the roles Jeffrey and Staal played... You are losing credibility with each post.

I'm still waiting for my answer about how you can justify what you said about Jeffrey, while trying to call me out for thinking Sutter's production wouldn't be a huge upgrade over what Jeffrey can do.

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05-28-2012, 09:35 AM
  #345
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There are a lot of off-base valuations being thrown around here but that's not one of the examples. Jokinen would be down the list of their wingers and certainly not one of their best. Neal and Kunitz are significantly better and Dupuis is better. He would be one of the better playmaking wingers but still wouldn't play in the top 6 there even with Sullivan leaving an opening.
I disagree. Neal is better than Jokinen. Nunitz might be better than Jokinen, but that's it. Just my opinion.

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05-28-2012, 09:42 AM
  #346
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The only thing I've heard attractive enough for your crowd is Bobby Ryan.. and I don't see any Anaheim fans running in to give you Bobby Ryan for Jordan Staal.
What you need to understand is the reason we want Ryan or a player of his caliber for Staal. Whoever gets Staal in a trade, assuming we trade him, is going to get a guy who they use in their top 6. Staal also very well may become a #1C, can't say he will or won't, but there is a lot of promise there. Staal also has a combination of attributes that you don't see very often, size, stregth, defensive beast, scores big goals, etc.

We in return would like a guy who would play top 6. So that has to be a winger, who can play the way DB likes. Ryan is a perfect fit. Plays DB style, is a right shot, and would contribute right away.....much like Staal would do for his new team. So we are not saying it has to be Ryan, it just has to be someone who brings a similar value to us.

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05-28-2012, 09:47 AM
  #347
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I never pretended to know much about Sutter's game, but you continue to embarrass yourself and make things up about two players I clearly know more about than you. That shouldn't even be up for debate, given how much misinformation you have spread about both of them in your last few posts to me.

According to you, Jeffrey was in the A this season. He hasn't been in the A since late 2010. You continue to throw out BS about Jeffrey and the role Staal has played for the last two seasons. I can assure you I have a much better grasp of the Pens system, roles and assignments than you. Yet you continue to get yourself deeper and deeper in BS trying to save face.

Again, stop pretending you know the roles Jeffrey and Staal played... You are losing credibility with each post.

I'm still waiting for my answer about how you can justify what you said about Jeffrey, while trying to call me out for thinking Sutter's production wouldn't be a huge upgrade over what Jeffrey can do.
Never said he was in the AHL this season. What are you rambling on about? I wrote in "his last season" not last season. Holy smoke.

Oh I see, I know what kind of system Pitt runs while you have no clue about Carolina's or Sutter, yet I'm the one without credibility. Classic. Simple question for you. Was Jordan Staal, even with his increased role, the primary match-up against opponents' top lines?

Again still waiting? You are projecting a player's future in a shutdown role who hasn't proven himself in the NHL vs. a guy who not only has but in a very similar system. Apple. Orange. Plus when you examine only Sutter's point production while excusing Staal's on the 3rd line due to mitigating circumstances, that is hypocritical. Do yourself a favor - read, think and then post.

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Originally Posted by jeromeo87 View Post
I disagree. Neal is better than Jokinen. Nunitz might be better than Jokinen, but that's it. Just my opinion.
Kunitz is decidedly better but I'm not sure about Nunitz. He does make some pressure putts.

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05-28-2012, 09:49 AM
  #348
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Exactly. So let's say he WANTS to sign in Carolina. CAR offers Jokinen, McBain, and 1st.. Pitts would rather keep J.Staal for one more year and let him walk, rather than acquire those assets?
Would rather have suttter instead of Jokinen. Don't wanna face
Staal
Staal
Sutter
As the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd line centers and shero wouldn't either probably.

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05-28-2012, 09:59 AM
  #349
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So...Martin has an off year and Carolina fans are supposed to ignore that and accpet that he would instantly become one of our best dmen, but Jokinen has so-so year and Pens fans laugh him off. Ok.

I stand by my opinion that Jokinen would instantly be one of your best wingers.
A guy that only looks good when he's doing shootouts will "instantly be one of your best wingers". Have you ever watched a penguins game in your life? Because i watched pretty much every game this year.
James neal 40 goals this year and like 84 points
Chris kunitz 25 goals
Dupuis getting paid 1.5 million and had 59 points
Matt cooke 19 goals (i'll take that from a 3rd liner rather then a 1st or 2nd line jokinen getting 12 goals)


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05-28-2012, 10:15 AM
  #350
Mr Jiggyfly
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Never said he was in the AHL this season. What are you rambling on about? I wrote in "his last season" not last season. Holy smoke.

Oh I see, I know what kind of system Pitt runs while you have no clue about Carolina's or Sutter, yet I'm the one without credibility. Classic. Simple question for you. Was Jordan Staal, even with his increased role, the primary match-up against opponents' top lines?

Again still waiting? You are projecting a player's future in a shutdown role who hasn't proven himself in the NHL vs. a guy who not only has but in a very similar system. Apple. Orange. Plus when you examine only Sutter's point production while excusing Staal's on the 3rd line due to mitigating circumstances, that is hypocritical. Do yourself a favor - read, think and then post
You said "last season" in the A. Don't try to twist things. You also rambled on about him being a scoring center when he has never played that role in the A or NHL. You rambled on about Staal still playing a checking line role, when he has not done that since 2010. Again, you are trying to make things up to save face, nothing more.

I don't have to know or understand Carolina's system. I am comparing point production, which is all I was concerned with. Other players have handled the checking line role just fine for the Pens while Staal has been placed in a scoring role.

If Staal is traded, his point production needs replaced, not his checking line duties, which he hasn't performed in nearly two seasons. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp. You just continue to rant on about Sutter and how I undervalued him. You keep missing the point, but don't let that stop you from talking him up...

And again, you are still going in circles. You made a definitive statement that Jeffrey will never be a consistent scorer or shutdown pivot. Yet you clearly don't even know what league or role he has been playing in. But you are somehow an expert on Jeffrey's potential?

The smell of hypocrisy is emanating from your posts and you continue to type out any nonsense you can to avoid having to man up about it.

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