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Old
05-28-2012, 02:58 PM
  #376
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huh?
Sarcasm.

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05-28-2012, 03:01 PM
  #377
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EDIT: Just saw Edler's a UFA. We're not trading Staal for a UFA.
Really? How many times have we (all of us Pen fans) said that Staal's UFA status means ****, as we would let the opposing GMs talk to Staal about a deal before hand.

Then someone offers us a trade, and your first response is that no we won't touch that as he's a UFA? Really?

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05-28-2012, 03:04 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Edler would be good here, but the benefits Ryan would bring as a big skilled winger who can create for himself and be a RH threat on the left side of the PP fills a bigger need. Losing Martin is addition by subtraction and Despres showed last year that he's more than capable of stepping in and playing well as a big two-way presence on the blueline.

EDIT: Just saw Edler's a UFA. We're not trading Staal for a UFA.
Yeah...no. Kesler has proven a lot more than Staal, has won a Selke, and is locked up for a while on a stellar contract. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about if you think any return Kesler can net Staal will too.

Also, your evaluation of Pitts needs is poor.

Lol. Staal is a UFA for crying out loud.


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05-28-2012, 03:07 PM
  #379
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Yeah...no. Kesler has proven a lot more than Staal, has won a Selke, and is locked up for a while on a stellar contract. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about if you think any return Kesler can net Staal will too.

Also, your evaluation of Pitts needs is poor.

Lol. Staal is a UFA for crying out loud.

Jordan Staal was a big part of the Pens winning the cup in 2009 and what has Kesler done that is comparable?

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05-28-2012, 03:11 PM
  #380
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Jordan Staal was a big part of the Pens winning the cup in 2009 and what has Kesler done that is comparable?
What are you talking about?

Firstly, one playoff run is about irrelevant a thing one could mention when determining the value of a player. Secondly, Malkin and Flower were the biggest contributors to the cup run. Thirdly, Kesler probably would have won the Conn Smythe had the Canucks beaten Boston in Game 7. If not for him, they wouldn't have made it out of the second round.

Kesler has been a 40 goal scorer, a 70+ point player, and has won a Selke. People hope that Staal can one day claim the same.

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05-28-2012, 03:14 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Yeah...no. Kesler has proven a lot more than Staal, has won a Selke, and is locked up for a while on a stellar contract. You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about if you think any return Kesler can net Staal will too.
Staal's 4 years younger and coming off a breakout year. Kesler's coming off a 4 year low.

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Also, your evaluation of Pitts needs is poor.
No, I have a good grip on the needs of a team I watch play 60+ games a year plus playoffs, thanks.

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Lol. Staal is a UFA for crying out loud.

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Then someone offers us a trade, and your first response is that no we won't touch that as he's a UFA? Really?
Had been awhile since I checked Capgeek, and they moved up the years.

Edler's not a bad value for Staal, but if we don't re-sign him, I think we'd be better served moving him for a RH scoring winger and letting our blueline prospects fill out the defense from within. No need to get pissy.

Jesus, people sure get wound up when you tell them they can't have Staal. You'd think he was more than a 3C who'd never scored more than 50 points in a year.

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05-28-2012, 03:15 PM
  #382
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
What are you talking about?

Firstly, one playoff run is about irrelevant a thing one could mention when determining the value of a player. Secondly, Malkin and Flower were the biggest contributors to the cup run. Thirdly, Kesler probably would have wont he Conn Smythe had the Canucks beaten Boston in Game 7. If not for him, they wouldn't have made it out of the second round.
Actually your wrong there. Look back at the series. Crosby owned Philly. The Caps series was Crosby & Malkin. The Canes series was all Malkin. The finals against the Wings, Staal was probably the best forward for the Pens.

Kesler showed up big time against the Preds, but after that series, didnt do very much. If there had of been a Conn Smythe for Van, it should have been Burrows

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05-28-2012, 03:22 PM
  #383
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Actually your wrong there. Look back at the series. Crosby owned Philly. The Caps series was Crosby & Malkin. The Canes series was all Malkin. The finals against the Wings, Staal was probably the best forward for the Pens.

Kesler showed up big time against the Preds, but after that series, didnt do very much. If there had of been a Conn Smythe for Van, it should have been Burrows
If you do not know the difference between your and you're, I have absolutely no respect for you opinion about anything. Especially when you say things like Burrows over Kesler for the Smythe had Van won.

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05-28-2012, 03:27 PM
  #384
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If you do not know the difference between your and you're, I have absolutely no respect for you opinion about anything. Especially when you say things like Burrows over Kesler for the Smythe had Van won.
Sid and Geno had better playoff performances than Kesler in 2011. Staal was our best forward in the Detroit series.

Maybe Kesler wins playoff MVP if Vancouver wins, but it'd be b/c Luongo was shakey, the Sedins were held in check for large stretches and your D is built on depth versus one shutdown type.

Anyways.....to get this back on track. I too would rather go after a package of RHS top 6 wingers, but if you offered Edler and we could sign him longterm just as you could with Staal, I'd take it.

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05-28-2012, 03:27 PM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Edler's not a bad value for Staal, but if we don't re-sign him, I think we'd be better served moving him for a RH scoring winger and letting our blueline prospects fill out the defense from within.
He's not my first choice either. However if something like this goes down, it happens after the GMs have talked to the players/agents to see about extensions (and if Edler/Staal won't sign, it doesn't happen). However Edler will get at least 5m on his next deal. That would mean both Martin and Niskanen pretty much have to go, and still doesn't leave much room for our young D going forward.

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05-28-2012, 03:29 PM
  #386
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He's not my first choice either. However if something like this goes down, it happens after the GMs have talked to the players/agents to see about extensions (and if Edler/Staal won't sign, it doesn't happen). However Edler will get at least 5m on his next deal. That would mean both Martin and Niskanen pretty much have to go, and still doesn't leave much room for our young D going forward.
If we can sign Edler longterm. I say peace to Brooks and Z down the road. Despres/Bortuzzo/Morrow/Harrington is our future.

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05-28-2012, 03:30 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
If you do not know the difference between your and you're, I have absolutely no respect for you opinion about anything. Especially when you say things like Burrows over Kesler for the Smythe had Van won.
Ok, lets let a grammatical error get in the way. What did Kesler do in the Hawks series? Towes shut down Kesler, and Bolland took care of the Sedins. Burrows was probably the best canuck, and got the series winner. Kesler was not even noticeable. As I said above, he crushed the Preds. Against the Sharks, he really wasn't great. He got some points, but didnt dominate. What did he do in the Bruins series?

Did you even watch any of the games?

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05-28-2012, 03:30 PM
  #388
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Staal's 4 years younger and coming off a breakout year. Kesler's coming off a 4 year low.
Kesler was coming off an injury which he never fully recovered from.

Kesler is locked up at $5m a year, has won a selke, has scored 40 goals and has hit 70+ points.

Staal has a career high of 50 points and is a UFA next season.

The fact that you're arguing they would garner the same return should be more than sufficient evidence for me, and anyone else reading, that you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.

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I think I have a pretty good grasp of the team I watch 60+ games a year
Everything you've said would suggest otherwise. The argument above... not knowing the player on your team that this entire discussion is about is an upcoming UFA...

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05-28-2012, 03:33 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
What are you talking about?

Firstly, one playoff run is about irrelevant a thing one could mention when determining the value of a player. Secondly, Malkin and Flower were the biggest contributors to the cup run. Thirdly, Kesler probably would have won the Conn Smythe had the Canucks beaten Boston in Game 7. If not for him, they wouldn't have made it out of the second round.

Kesler has been a 40 goal scorer, a 70+ point player, and has won a Selke. People hope that Staal can one day claim the same.
As Pens GM Ray Shero has said about Staal is that you win championships with him on your team. Staal's defensive work is why Pittsburgh was able to shutdown Detroit in 2009 especially the games at Mellon Arena. When the 27 year old Kesler does something comparable to what the 20 year old Staal did in 2009, then you can pump up Kesler. The NHL is a results orientated business and Kesler has yet to get those results (Cup win) for the Canucks.

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05-28-2012, 03:36 PM
  #390
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Because Edler fills out an organizational need for the Penguins. A 1-2 punch of Crosby/Malkin down the center, and Letang/Edler on the back end is just dirty.

Edler would be of much greater use to Pitt than Ryan would. 45 point, bit hitting, defensively responsible, 100mp/h slapper, PP qb (for your second unit), and he is still very young.

Pitt would want Edler. Plus, Van would probably have to add to Kesler to pry Ryan away.
Disagree whole heartedly! Ryan could play with Crosby right away. This keeps our captain happy, and also creates matchup difficulties for the other team....ie, who do you send your lockdown pair against,Malkin/Neal, or Crosby/Ryan.

Not that the Pens would hate the idea of Edler, but defense is a much bigger organizational strength than wing. I'd rather keep our D as is, or at least insert Despres for someone, and have Ryan.

Also, bringing in Edler creates a bigger log jam for our young D who are NHL ready.

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05-28-2012, 03:37 PM
  #391
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Ok, lets let a grammatical error get in the way. What did Kesler do in the Hawks series? Towes shut down Kesler, and Bolland took care of the Sedins. Burrows was probably the best canuck, and got the series winner. Kesler was not even noticeable. As I said above, he crushed the Preds. Against the Sharks, he really wasn't great. He got some points, but didnt dominate. What did he do in the Bruins series?

Did you even watch any of the games?
Toews shut down Kesler? Then what did Kesler do to Toews? They neutralized each other and canceled each other out. Keslers dominant defensive performance against the Hawks, and shutting down Toews was a big reason we won that series.

Then, Kesler won a series by himself against Nashville. Which was one of the single greatest individual playoff performances in recent memory.

He was good against San Jose. The entire Canucks team was good against San Jose. So he didn't stand out because everyone played fantastic.

And the entire team sucked against Boston.

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05-28-2012, 03:43 PM
  #392
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Disagree whole heartedly! Ryan could play with Crosby right away. This keeps our captain happy, and also creates matchup difficulties for the other team....ie, who do you send your lockdown pair against,Malkin/Neal, or Crosby/Ryan.

Not that the Pens would hate the idea of Edler, but defense is a much bigger organizational strength than wing. I'd rather keep our D as is, or at least insert Despres for someone, and have Ryan.

Also, bringing in Edler creates a bigger log jam for our young D who are NHL ready.
I disagree.

The thing with the top 6 wing position is that the 2 best players in the world are centering those lines. Crosby and Malkin can turn almost any player into a 25+ goal scorer. Offensive output isn't really at the forefront of Pittsburgh's problems. While admittedly their wingers leave something to be desired, that is the whole point behind having nearly 20m at 1 and 2c. You can plug around them and still be outstanding.

Where I see a big need for Pitt is a LH dman for the top 4 who can QB the 2nd unit PP, that has good puck moving skills and can show a serious physical presence.

It would allow Pitt to spread out a little more on the PP, and have 2 outstanding units. Not to mention everything Edler bring in terms of puck moving, puck possession, physicality and 5 on 5 play.

Edit: I dont see D as an organizational strength, with all due respect. I see Pitt as being logjammed with up and coming bottom pairing Dmen.

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05-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Kesler was coming off an injury which he never fully recovered from.

Kesler is locked up at $5m a year, has won a selke, has scored 40 goals and has hit 70+ points.

Staal has a career high of 50 points and is a UFA next season.

The fact that you're arguing they would garner the same return should be more than sufficient evidence for me, and anyone else reading, that you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.
And yet, people get frustrated and start insulting for some reason when they find out they can't have him. Presumably because they're capable of understanding age, potential, and production pace.

It's funny. I always hear from other teams about how their asset isn't devalued because of a down year, yet whenever Paul Martin's brought up, he's apparently worthless. Curious how that works.

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Everything you've said would suggest otherwise. The argument above... not knowing the player on your team that this entire discussion is about is an upcoming UFA...
I knew that Staal was a UFA in 2013, slick. I didn't know Edler was because Capgeek moved up the years, so I was under the impression he was a free agent this year. I don't keep an internal log of the UFA status of every defenseman in the league. Sorry.

You're doing the ad hominem now because of a grammatical error from one poster and an honest UFA mix-up concerning a defenseman on a team in a different conference from another. Nothing like arguing in earnest.

For the record, if you believe a RH threat for the PP isn't a need for the Penguins, come on over to our board and state your case. It will be instructive.

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05-28-2012, 03:44 PM
  #394
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This whole pissing match about Kesler vs. Staal is enough to give you a headache. They're both great players who play a similar style of game.

I'm positive if Shero had a chance to have Kesler on the Pens, he'd cream.

Anyone discounting Kesler is just being plain ignorant. The guy played with a bad injury last year.

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05-28-2012, 03:46 PM
  #395
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Edler+ for Staal+ is a good deal for both teams, however, right now the Pens seem to have a promising group of D prospects with Despres, Morrow and Harrington, while getting a guy like Edler or (like some Pens recommend) trying to sign a guy like Suter would help our team and be a significant upgrade on D. I don't feel that the Pens D is that bad that they need to bring in another impact defenseman.

The team doesn't need defensemen, regardless of what happened in the playoffs, it all had to do with lack of effort, not skill.

Orpik-Letang
Martin-Michalek
Niskanen-Engelland

That's not a bad group of defensemen, they just played bad in the playoffs. They can play way better than they did and I think they will bounce back, even Martin if we don't trade him. It would be nice to get his contract off the books and get Despres in the NHL, but I believe Martin will bounce back.

The Penguins do not have a true impact winger other than James Neal, so I hope you see why we would need an impact winger before we would need an impact defenseman. 3 out of our 4 top 6 wingers are 32+ years old. We have Bennett developing and Tangradi with upside and doubts that he gets a top 6 spot.

With young D, and a shortage of winger prospects, if the Pens absolutely need to trade Staal, they would want an impact winger in return. Nevermind a replacement 3rd line center and a 1st round pick. We can go with Jeffrey (which some non Pens fans think isn't smart, idk why). Pens can sign a shutdown 3rd line, checking line center during free agency. Assuming they hit UFA they can try Dominic Moore, Paul Gaustad, Samuel Pahlsson, Chris Kelley, etc. All good options to be a 3rd line center, what we most likely can't get on the free agent market is an impact top 6 winger, one that Staal could return.

We're not saying Edler for Staal is bad, we're just saying it doesn't fill a need, as many believe Despres is NHL ready. We still haven't traded Martin and we don't know what his future is with the team, we have guys like Morrow and Harrington who are developing into top D prospects.

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05-28-2012, 03:52 PM
  #396
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The thing with the top 6 wing position is that the 2 best players in the world are centering those lines. Crosby and Malkin can turn almost any player into a 25+ goal scorer. Offensive output isn't really at the forefront of Pittsburgh's problems. While admittedly their wingers leave something to be desired, that is the whole point behind having nearly 20m at 1 and 2c. You can plug around them and still be outstanding.
If you had been paying attention, you would've realized that the need for an RH shot isn't primarily for even-strength (though it wouldn't hurt), it's for the PP. We need a skilled right hand shot on the left side to spread out coverage, create, and convert cross-ice passes from Sid/Geno, who are both most comfortable working the right boards. But I don't know my own team, right?

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Where I see a big need for Pitt is a LH dman for the top 4 who can QB the 2nd unit PP, that has good puck moving skills and can show a serious physical presence.
We have Despres to fill that role moving forward.

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Edit: I dont see D as an organizational strength, with all due respect. I see Pitt as being logjammed with up and coming bottom pairing Dmen.
Strait and Bortuzzo are likely bottom-pairing d-men. Despres, Morrow, and Harrington? You'd be in the overwhelming minority, thinking that.

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05-28-2012, 04:00 PM
  #397
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And yet, people get frustrated and start insulting for some reason when they find out they can't have him.
No. I got frustrated when you insisted on arguing that an upcoming UFA with a career high of 50 points would garner the same return as a 40 goal, 70+ point Selke winning player locked up for multiple years at $5m.






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I knew that Staal was a UFA in 2013, slick. I didn't know Edler was because Capgeek moved up the years, so I was under the impression he was a free agent this year. I don't keep an internal log of the UFA status of every defenseman in the league. Sorry.
Fair enough

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You're doing the ad hominem now because of a grammatical error from one poster and an honest UFA mix-up concerning a defenseman on a team in a different conference from another. Nothing like arguing in earnest.
It isn't just him. I do not value opinions of people who cannot write at a grade 8 level. It's just one of my rules.

And you and UFA knowledge was a misunderstanding. I thought you meant Staal. Naturally, were that the case, it too would be justified.




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For the record, if you believe a RH threat for the PP isn't a need for the Penguins, come on over to our board and state your case. It will be instructive.
This is all predicated under the hypothesis that Staal would get you Ryan. He wouldn't. Staal won't net the same return as Kesler. Something I've been saying since this started. So everything predicated from that erroneous assumption on your part is immediately false.

Obviously Pitt has needs on the wing position. Every team in the NHL wants Bobby Ryan. Nobody would argue that he wouldn't fill a need for any team.

I'm arguing that a young top 4 LH dman to anchor your second pairing, qb your second unit allowing you to run 2 pp units of Crosby/Letang and Malkin/Edler, and provide much needed physicality is a bigger need.

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05-28-2012, 04:04 PM
  #398
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We're not saying Edler for Staal is bad, we're just saying it doesn't fill a need, as many believe Despres is NHL ready. We still haven't traded Martin and we don't know what his future is with the team, we have guys like Morrow and Harrington who are developing into top D prospects.
I completely agree. I'd love to have Edler on the Pens but we have a lot of young Dmen that are on the brink of the NHL right now. It's not a need. I'm certain Despres will definitely be logging minutes next season and he makes Martin expendable. If anything, the Pens could use a Gill type defender on the 5-6 pairing that helps on the PK (doesn't have to be included in a Staal trade).

I'd just rather evaluate deals around these potential guys first before a top D like Edler: (Of course with a signed Staal heading back since a few particular "haters" constantly need this pointed out.)

B. Ryan
P. Sharp
T. Hall
E. Kane
Oshie

Each of these guys fit the need of what the Pens lack. A top end RH shot wing that can balance out the PP. Our PP plays almost the entire 2 minutes with 4 forwards and 1 D, with the only RH shot being Letang as the top of the umbrella. Hence, why we stick to plays on the right side/center of the ice for the most part, which makes it easier for teams to guard against, especially come playoff time when you really focus on how to stop the opposing team over a series. Each of these teams could also use more strength down the center, making a deal centered around both players as a starting point a win-win for both teams.

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05-28-2012, 04:07 PM
  #399
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Edler+ for Staal+ is a good deal for both teams, however, right now the Pens seem to have a promising group of D prospects with Despres, Morrow and Harrington, while getting a guy like Edler or (like some Pens recommend) trying to sign a guy like Suter would help our team and be a significant upgrade on D. I don't feel that the Pens D is that bad that they need to bring in another impact defenseman.

The team doesn't need defensemen, regardless of what happened in the playoffs, it all had to do with lack of effort, not skill.

Orpik-Letang
Martin-Michalek
Niskanen-Engelland

That's not a bad group of defensemen, they just played bad in the playoffs. They can play way better than they did and I think they will bounce back, even Martin if we don't trade him. It would be nice to get his contract off the books and get Despres in the NHL, but I believe Martin will bounce back.

The Penguins do not have a true impact winger other than James Neal, so I hope you see why we would need an impact winger before we would need an impact defenseman. 3 out of our 4 top 6 wingers are 32+ years old. We have Bennett developing and Tangradi with upside and doubts that he gets a top 6 spot.

With young D, and a shortage of winger prospects, if the Pens absolutely need to trade Staal, they would want an impact winger in return. Nevermind a replacement 3rd line center and a 1st round pick. We can go with Jeffrey (which some non Pens fans think isn't smart, idk why). Pens can sign a shutdown 3rd line, checking line center during free agency. Assuming they hit UFA they can try Dominic Moore, Paul Gaustad, Samuel Pahlsson, Chris Kelley, etc. All good options to be a 3rd line center, what we most likely can't get on the free agent market is an impact top 6 winger, one that Staal could return.

We're not saying Edler for Staal is bad, we're just saying it doesn't fill a need, as many believe Despres is NHL ready. We still haven't traded Martin and we don't know what his future is with the team, we have guys like Morrow and Harrington who are developing into top D prospects.
I don't like that D core at all. I don't see how you can say it is a strength.

Even if you plug Despres into it, he isn't going to anchor your second pairing going forward like you hope he will. I just don't see Pitt as having a solid D core.

It is about cap management and team structure. The way you're structured now, with 25% of your cap eaten up by 2 players at the center position, you can't really expect to throw in a 5-6m winger and still maintain organizational depth in the bottom 6 and top 4 on D. It just doesn't work like that.

Your cap structure is one where you plug cheap (and hopefully effective) wingers around your superstar centers.

If you want to do what you're talking about, you need to trade Malkin. Not Staal. Pick up a Pahlsson type player to center the 3rd line, and that will structure your team in a manner where you can realistically have elite and expensive wingers while simultaneously maintaining strong depth in the bottom 6 and on D.

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05-28-2012, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I completely agree. I'd love to have Edler on the Pens but we have a lot of young Dmen that are on the brink of the NHL right now. It's not a need. I'm certain Despres will definitely be logging minutes next season and he makes Martin expendable. If anything, the Pens could use a Gill type defender on the 5-6 pairing that helps on the PK (doesn't have to be included in a Staal trade).

I'd just rather evaluate deals around these potential guys first before a top D like Edler: (Of course with a signed Staal heading back since a few particular "haters" constantly need this pointed out.)

B. Ryan
P. Sharp
T. Hall
E. Kane
Oshie

Each of these guys fit the need of what the Pens lack. A top end RH shot wing that can balance out the PP. Our PP plays almost the entire 2 minutes with 4 forwards and 1 D, with the only RH shot being Letang as the top of the umbrella. Hence, why we stick to plays on the right side/center of the ice for the most part, which makes it easier for teams to guard against, especially come playoff time when you really focus on how to stop the opposing team over a series. Each of these teams could also use more strength down the center, making a deal centered around both players as a starting point a win-win for both teams.
You stick to the right side because Crosby QBs the PP from the half boards. It is his MO.

See above post about cap structure.

Only player on that list you could hope to land with Staal is Sharp. And even that I doubt gets done.

Special teams has the word special in front of it for a reason. If you trade one of your most valuable trading assets for nothing more than help on special teams, you would be a terrible general manager.

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