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Old
05-28-2012, 04:17 PM
  #401
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
No. I got frustrated when you insisted on arguing that an upcoming UFA with a career high of 50 points would garner the same return as a 40 goal, 70+ point Selke winning player locked up for multiple years at $5m.
All true. So is the fact that he's coming off a 49 point year over a full season (injuries, yes, though Vigneault disagrees), and the guy he's being compared with is 4 years younger, also elite defensively, and coming off a year where he scored 50 points in 62 games and 9 points in 6 playoff games.

Kesler's contract is a factor, as is the likelihood that anyone trading for Staal would get assurances about a re-sign beforehand.

We both understand the factors at play, we just disagree on how they're weighted. Not surprising, considering the teams we support.

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This is all predicated under the hypothesis that Staal would get you Ryan. He wouldn't. Staal won't net the same return as Kesler. Something I've been saying since this started. So everything predicated from that erroneous assumption on your part is immediately false.
That's your opinion. Again, I disagree.

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I'm arguing that a young top 4 LH dman to anchor your second pairing, qb your second unit allowing you to run 2 pp units of Crosby/Letang and Malkin/Edler, and provide much needed physicality is a bigger need.
Nah. Like I said, Edler's a nice piece, but Despres addresses the size, skill, and two-way play void moving forward, while we have nobody on the team or in the pipeline close to being that RH PP threat.

We actually have a more physical blueline than Vancouver right now, so while it'd be great to add, it's not a pressing need. We're very confident in our defense pipeline, so you're not going to see much support for a deal built around Edler and Staal from a Pittsburgh perspective, even though it's about right value-wise.

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05-28-2012, 04:22 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
All true. So is the fact that he's coming off a 49 point year over a full season (injuries, yes, though Vigneault disagrees), and the guy he's being compared with is 4 years younger, also elite defensively, and coming off a year where he scored 50 points in 62 games and 9 points in 6 playoff games.

Kesler's contract is a factor, as is the likelihood that anyone trading for Staal would get assurances about a re-sign beforehand.

We both understand the factors at play, we just disagree on how they're weighted. Not surprising, considering the teams we support.



That's your opinion. Again, I disagree.



Nah. Like I said, Edler's a nice piece, but Despres addresses the size, skill, and two-way play void moving forward, while we have nobody on the team or in the pipeline close to being that RH PP threat.

We actually have a more physical blueline than Vancouver right now, so while it'd be great to add, it's not a pressing need. We're very confident in our defense pipeline, so you're not going to see much support for a deal built around Edler and Staal from a Pittsburgh perspective, even though it's about right value-wise.
I really dont think it matters what you say. He will find something to argue about.

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05-28-2012, 04:23 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Hottubber View Post
I really dont think it matters what you say. He will find something to argue about.
Could be. I should probably give this thread a break, given how it'll likely all be resolved on July 1st, haha.

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05-28-2012, 04:24 PM
  #404
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I would definitely do Staal for Edler. I see Harrington as trade bait, and Morrow and Despres will be tough to fit in, but it can be done.

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05-28-2012, 04:24 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Could be. I should probably give this thread a break, given how it'll likely all be resolved on July 1st, haha.
its starting to hurt my grade 8 brain

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05-28-2012, 04:25 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You stick to the right side because Crosby QBs the PP from the half boards. It is his MO.

See above post about cap structure.

Only player on that list you could hope to land with Staal is Sharp. And even that I doubt gets done.

Special teams has the word special in front of it for a reason. If you trade one of your most valuable trading assets for nothing more than help on special teams, you would be a terrible general manager.
Malkin and Crosby both share the right half boards. Crosby mostly plays down low and rotates on the half boards with Malkin. Any Pens fan will tell you that Malkin is better to run the PP on the half boards than Crosby is. Crosby is much better down low. Stick to one side is nonsense though. Watch the Flyers PP. They passed at will all over the ice on us and absolutely ***** us.

Again, re-read my post. I said deals "centered around." If we have to add, then we have to add. I didn't say 1 for 1.

You act like I'm solely dealing Staal for special teams help. Fact of the matter is, Malkin finally has a pair of wingers to play with instead of the usual 3rd/4th liners. Getting Crosby someone other than the likes of Dupuis would be nice.

Good job of trying to cut me down though instead of adding to the conversation.

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05-28-2012, 04:29 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Moebius View Post
I would definitely do Staal for Edler. I see Harrington as trade bait, and Morrow and Despres will be tough to fit in, but it can be done.
It would be a mistake for us to trade a guy considered by some to be the best shutdown d in all junior hockey.

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05-28-2012, 04:32 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
All true. So is the fact that he's coming off a 49 point year over a full season (injuries, yes, though Vigneault disagrees), and the guy he's being compared with is 4 years younger, also elite defensively, and coming off a year where he scored 50 points in 62 games and 9 points in 6 playoff games.

Kesler's contract is a factor, as is the likelihood that anyone trading for Staal would get assurances about a re-sign beforehand.

We both understand the factors at play, we just disagree on how they're weighted. Not surprising, considering the teams we support.



That's your opinion. Again, I disagree.



Nah. Like I said, Edler's a nice piece, but Despres addresses the size, skill, and two-way play void moving forward, while we have nobody on the team or in the pipeline close to being that RH PP threat.

We actually have a more physical blueline than Vancouver right now, so while it'd be great to add, it's not a pressing need. We're very confident in our defense pipeline, so you're not going to see much support for a deal built around Edler and Staal from a Pittsburgh perspective, even though it's about right value-wise.
I have said before on this board that I believe Staal will be better than Kesler. I see him as a 70+ point, Selke caliber center.

The whole point though, is that this is a projection. Kesler is already that player, and you and me project and hope Staal becomes that effective.

Then you take into consideration the fact that Staal is a UFA due for a big pay raise, and Kesler is locked up for multiple years at only $5m, and it is clear that Staal does not have the same trade value as Kesler.

You have not made a single discernible argument suggesting otherwise outside of wild proclamations.

You're just wrong, and you insist on arguing despite being clearly wrong.

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05-28-2012, 04:34 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
No thanks. Bolland and a 1st at most.
Has to start with Saad

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05-28-2012, 04:38 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Malkin and Crosby both share the right half boards. Crosby mostly plays down low and rotates on the half boards with Malkin. Any Pens fan will tell you that Malkin is better to run the PP on the half boards than Crosby is. Crosby is much better down low. Stick to one side is nonsense though. Watch the Flyers PP. They passed at will all over the ice on us and absolutely ***** us.

Again, re-read my post. I said deals "centered around." If we have to add, then we have to add. I didn't say 1 for 1.

You act like I'm solely dealing Staal for special teams help. Fact of the matter is, Malkin finally has a pair of wingers to play with instead of the usual 3rd/4th liners. Getting Crosby someone other than the likes of Dupuis would be nice.

Good job of trying to cut me down though instead of adding to the conversation.
Your PP is a large debate. I doubt adding in a winger changes the dynamic like you say it does. Throw in a RH shot, and you will still have Crosby and Malkin working the half boards on the right side.

What you need imo, is to spread out more on the PP. Have 2 viable units, instead of loading up on one. To do that you need another Letang.

Well, fair enough. Like I said, the only player on that list I see you getting is Sharp. I suppose you could probably work a deal to get that done.

Again, Shero talking about Center positions and him reevaluating team structure has to do with cap. Which I mentioned above in one of my posts. It is the biggest thing inhibiting you guys from doing what it is you claim to want to do.

Your current cap structure does not permit elite star wingers if you want to have any depth in your bottom 6 and on D. I don't want to reiterate my points, so please just scroll up and read.

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05-28-2012, 04:39 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
I completely agree. I'd love to have Edler on the Pens but we have a lot of young Dmen that are on the brink of the NHL right now. It's not a need. I'm certain Despres will definitely be logging minutes next season and he makes Martin expendable. If anything, the Pens could use a Gill type defender on the 5-6 pairing that helps on the PK (doesn't have to be included in a Staal trade).

I'd just rather evaluate deals around these potential guys first before a top D like Edler: (Of course with a signed Staal heading back since a few particular "haters" constantly need this pointed out.)

B. Ryan
P. Sharp
T. Hall
E. Kane
Oshie

Each of these guys fit the need of what the Pens lack. A top end RH shot wing that can balance out the PP. Our PP plays almost the entire 2 minutes with 4 forwards and 1 D, with the only RH shot being Letang as the top of the umbrella. Hence, why we stick to plays on the right side/center of the ice for the most part, which makes it easier for teams to guard against, especially come playoff time when you really focus on how to stop the opposing team over a series. Each of these teams could also use more strength down the center, making a deal centered around both players as a starting point a win-win for both teams.
Taylor Hall is a left hand shot. The RH shot players in our top six are Hemsky and Eberle. One wouldn't bring back Staal and the other we would prefer not to trade.

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05-28-2012, 04:42 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by DontToewzMeBro View Post
To The pens
Brandon Saad
D. Bolland
1st

To the Hawks
J.Staal

This was in his blog.
Jesse is an idiot

Horrendous for Hawks

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05-28-2012, 04:48 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
You have not made a single discernible argument suggesting otherwise outside of wild proclamations.

You're just wrong, and you insist on arguing despite being clearly wrong.
No, I have, and it's the most germane one. It's the fact that Kesler is coming off a season where he wasn't nearly as good as Staal, who's also produced at a 64 point pace over the past 117 games the last 2 years (reg. season and playoffs), so he's already playing at a level close to your projection.

Whatever you want to attribute Kesler's down year to (like I said, injuries were given as a reason, but Kesler's own coach doesn't buy it), it happened, and it's unlikely GMs wouldn't take it into consideration when assessing value.

You might not agree with my take, but to suggest that I haven't "made a single discernible argument suggesting otherwise outside of wild proclamations" is false.

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05-28-2012, 04:56 PM
  #414
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I'm just curious how badly the Hawks need a #2 center. I was under the impression that neither Kane nor Sharp was best suited there, and that the fanbase was interested in finding another option.

If they are looking, who are the targets and what do they think they'll have to give up to get them?

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05-28-2012, 04:58 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
No, I have, and it's the most germane one. It's the fact that Kesler is coming off a season where he wasn't nearly as good as Staal, who's also produced at a 64 point pace over the past 117 games the last 2 years (reg. season and playoffs), so he's already playing at a level close to your projection.

Whatever you want to attribute Kesler's down year to (like I said, injuries were given as a reason, but Kesler's own coach doesn't buy it), it happened, and it's unlikely GMs wouldn't take it into consideration when assessing value.

You might not agree with my take, but to suggest that I "made a single discernible argument suggesting otherwise outside of wild proclamations" is false.
Your argument is that an upcoming UFA who projects to be as good as a guy who is locked up at $5m for multiple years has the same value. Based entirely around "Well the UFA had a good year, and the guy locked up to a great contract had a down year coming off an injury".

That is not a "discernible" argument.

Lets put this in incredibly simple terms and remove the variables. Lets say Staal and Kesler are close to being equal. Kesler has 40 goals, 70 points and a Selke, but according to you he had a "down year". So lets ignore that point and assume they are virtually identical. Which they aren't.

Staal is an upcoming UFA, and Kesler is locked up for multiple years at only $5m a year. Less than what Staal will get.

You arguing they have the same value in trade, is with all due respect, stupid. There is nothing to debate about the matter. You're wrong.

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05-28-2012, 05:02 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
So would this past year be 2010? It is WBS, also, just to enlighten you a liitle more.

Again, are you done embarrassing yourself yet?

And no, for the fifth time I told you checking line responsibilities went to other players. Staal was placed in a scoring role, DB doesn't check top lines with his scoring lines. Those resp go to third and fourth liners. How many times do I have to repeat that to you?

If you are done making things up, I'd like an answer to my question now.
Holy crap man. You claimed I stated "last season" when I clearly wrote "his last season." I even linked you to that and your response? You go back to another quote where I talked about his role as recently as last year. Year, not season. See the difference? It was about how recently and that was 2011, or last year. He also did have a short conditioning stint this past season just so you know. Everything I stated about Jeffrey was correct - he was previously a scorer, he played a checking line role in the A, he then played on a scoring line, first at C then at W. I did however make a terrible mistake with a type - WSB vs. WBS.

You also can't seem to grasp the other question about Staal. I'm not talking about a checking line, I'm talking about was he used against other teams top lines. Yes, he was. In key situations he was most certainly used and he also was double shifted at times. He faced the toughest opposition compared to the other C's on the roster. Rant and rage all you want, you're wrong. The biggest difference was on the PK, where he didn't log as many minutes/game as usual.

As for your contention you don't need to know the Canes system. How than can you raise the question of Sutter's "transition" to the Pens system? There would be no transition, as he's used to playing m2s. Thus your entire premise is false and misinformed.

I've answered your question. I don't know how many ways to state it. Maybe just try reading for comprehensive for a change. Go back and read it. If you don't agree, then maybe you claim I wrote something I didn't. Hasn't stop you before.

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05-28-2012, 05:05 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
No thanks. Bolland and a 1st at most.
No, it's really Bolland who needs to be replaced in this deal for it to come closer to working.

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05-28-2012, 05:08 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Lets put this in incredibly simple terms and remove the variables. Lets say Staal and Kesler are close to being equal. Kesler has 40 goals, 70 points and a Selke, but according to you he had a "down year". So lets ignore that point and assume they are virtually identical. Which they aren't.
"According to me"? Come now. His totals dropped by 24 from the previous year and his coach was explicit in his refusal to accept the injury excuse.

Difficult to interpret that as anything other than a down year, I'd say.

Quote:
Staal is an upcoming UFA, and Kesler is locked up for multiple years at only $5m a year. Less than what Staal will get.
Yes, I'm still with you...

Quote:
You arguing they have the same value in trade, is with all due respect, stupid. There is nothing to debate about the matter. You're wrong.
I disagree. Oh well.

Happy posting.

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05-28-2012, 05:11 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Statistics are the only hard evidence, Copernicus. Your "analysis" consisted of a simple listing of what each does well, which, again, proves nothing in terms of their relative value. Your "relevant hard evidence" ignored each's most recent production, which is the most relevant production there is.

You're so dead set on devaluing Staal by suggesting he's a minor step-up from Bolland that you can't bring yourself to acknowledge the truth that most believe the difference between the two is the difference between a good 2C with upside and a good 3C with little scoring line upside - because if people didn't believe that, none of these proposals would exist.

That's why Hawks fans want him instead of Bolland, and why Canes fans want him instead of Sutter. He is a scoring line center, and the other two aren't.
You wanted hard evidence and I gave you hard evidence. I tried to tell you that Pens fans almost always claim you can't do that when looking at Staal's 3C production but you conventionally looked past it. You then dismissed it because you only wanted to look at this past year. Yet Staal upgraded his role and his wings.

Could Bolland produce similar numbers under those circumstances? Who knows but it could well be close given the small gap in career PPG. Jump and down all you like, there simply isn't a huge difference between them and if you knew anything about Bolland you'd have tried to refute it earlier.

I haven't devalued Staal at all. Cite on thing I wrote about his weaknesses that was wrong. And seriously, you're basing the inherent difference between them on what fans have posted oh HF about proposals?

I'm laughing so hard I'm crying. Instant classic, unintentional I'm sure but holy hell man.

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05-28-2012, 05:13 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
"According to me"? Come now. His totals dropped by 24 from the previous year and his coach was explicit in his refusal to accept the injury excuse.

Difficult to interpret that as anything other than a down year, I'd say.



Yes, I'm still with you...



I disagree. Oh well.

Happy posting.
Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, the Sedins all had "down years". Are their values significantly diminished because of this? I put "down year" in quotations because it is a rudimentary statement ignoring multiple variables. Injury, the entire west having "down years", etc etc etc.

I disagree is not a discernible argument.

You have 2 very similar players. One is a UFA at the end of the season who you cannot guarantee even stays with your club, and even if he does will command minimum $6m a year, and the other is locked up at $5m for multiple years.

These two players do not have the same value. There is no universe wherein anyone would value them the same, based simply on a contractual basis. Upcoming UFA's do not have the same value as guys locked up to stellar contracts, as proven in every trade in the history of hockey. As would be told to you by every General Manager in the NHL.

Then you add in the fact that Kesler has proven to be what Staal hopes to become, and it shows you to be even more wrong.

Doesn't matter how you look at it, you're just wrong.

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05-28-2012, 05:15 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by SIDGENO8771 View Post
Has to start with Saad
Then Bolland is out, as well as every other core player.

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05-28-2012, 05:16 PM
  #422
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No, it's really Bolland who needs to be replaced in this deal for it to come closer to working.
Sure, so you want Frolik, Hammer, or someone like that instead..because you wouldn't be getting any other core player for a UFA to be.

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05-28-2012, 05:24 PM
  #423
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Sure, so you want Frolik, Hammer, or someone like that instead..because you wouldn't be getting any other core player for a UFA to be.
Oh....my...

Pens fans, we shouldn't even post in this thread, it's the same argument with Staal, since he's a UFA to be, noone wants him, we should just close this thread.

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05-28-2012, 05:24 PM
  #424
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Holy crap man. You claimed I stated "last season" when I clearly wrote "his last season." I even linked you to that and your response? You go back to another quote where I talked about his role as recently as last year. Year, not season. See the difference? It was about how recently and that was 2011, or last year. He also did have a short conditioning stint this past season just so you know. Everything I stated about Jeffrey was correct - he was previously a scorer, he played a checking line role in the A, he then played on a scoring line, first at C then at W. I did however make a terrible mistake with a type - WSB vs. WBS.
I was referring specifically to the post I quoted; it isn't my problem you can't keep the misinformation you are throwing out there straight. Now you are simply trying to spin things to save face. "as recently as this past year" is hard to take out of context.

You claimed Jeffrey played as a scoring center this past season, past year etc. neither way you spin it is accurate because he hasn't played in WBS since 2010, nor has he ever played as a scoring center in WBS or for the Pens as you tried to claim. Now you are trying to twist things to make it seem like you meant he played in a "scoring role". Please my man...

Also, what he did in WBS has no bearing on the role he played for the Pens, so I have no clue why you even brought it into the conversation.

Also, trying to spin off a whopping two game conditioning stint to bring back your credibility is at best a last desperate attempt to save face and we both know it.

Quote:
I've answered your question.
No, you haven't, actually. You continue to spin things and try to move away from the question with more misinformation.

Its obvious you are making things up about Staal and Jeffrey to fit your own agenda. No matter how many times I have to correct you, you still keep rambling on about how you were accurate.

It has gotten comical how you refuse to admit how little you know about Staal and Jeffrey and how you were right to say Jeffrey will never be this or that.


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05-28-2012, 05:38 PM
  #425
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I was referring specifically to the post I quoted; it isn't my problem you can't keep the misinformation you are throwing out there straight. Now you are simply trying to spin things to save face.

You claimed Jeffrey played as a scoring center this past season, past year etc. neither way you spin it is accurate because he hasn't played in WBS since 2010, nor has he ever played as a scoring center in WBS or for the Pens as you tried to claim. Now you are trying to twist things to make it seem like you meant he played in a "scoring role". Please my man...

Also, what he did in WBS has no bearing on the role he played for the Pens, so I have no clue why you even brought it into the conversation.
It's all there and it's all accurate. I really can't help you if you don't know the difference between seasons and years. I guess you need the full quote, again? Here you go...

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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
On Jeffrey which is it? You said he was being groomed to be a checking line center. Yet, he only played that role in his first AHL season. Thereafter he led the team in scoring and by your own account played a scoring role in his last season. Yeah, he was moved to wing but he also centered the top line for a time. That's why I said it's not a lock that he can play a shutdown C role in the NHL, as he came into his pro career as a scorer and was also asked to score in the AHL as his career progressed.
It's all there. Feel free to pin the confusion on me. Nothing there is inaccurate. Nothing.

By the way, where did I say he played a scoring center for the Pens? I didn't, it was another of your misreads. As for the AHL he did indeed play center on a scoring line and then was moved to wing.

My comment about as recently as last year was in reference to what I said was not great training to play a checking line C role in the NHL by playing on scoring lines in the AHL. You the good old "transition" you threw out there regarding Sutter and the Pens system. Remember?

As for Staal, you still can't seem to address it, huh? Just easier to try and call me out for errors that were not made. Staal faced the toughest competition against opposing lines than any other C on the Pens. That is fact and we both know it. Love how you steered clear of the double shifting and more limited PK minutes, again both of which are true.

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