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Old
05-28-2012, 05:38 PM
  #426
TorstenFrings
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Sure, so you want Frolik, Hammer, or someone like that instead..because you wouldn't be getting any other core player for a UFA to be.
Sure, cap dumps would be much better than the 3C downgrade. Why do people think this works? Do you want to trade Kane for Pascal Dupuis + 1st?

Also it's fine to not want to trade for an upcoming UFA, it's wanting to trade for one with some random **** you found between the couch pillows that's has been getting stale for a couple weeks now.

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05-28-2012, 05:42 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
You wanted hard evidence and I gave you hard evidence. I tried to tell you that Pens fans almost always claim you can't do that when looking at Staal's 3C production but you conventionally looked past it. You then dismissed it because you only wanted to look at this past year. Yet Staal upgraded his role and his wings.
I didn't "conventionally" (conveniently?) look past anything.

History is obviously considered, but value will always be weighted towards the most recent year. Again, the Gagner/Pacioretty comparison is apt.

Staal was on pace for almost 15 more goals and 30 more points than Bolland last year, which is a huge gap even without taking the playoffs into account.

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Could Bolland produce similar numbers under those circumstances? Who knows but it could well be close given the small gap in career PPG. Jump and down all you like, there simply isn't a huge difference between them and if you knew anything about Bolland you'd have tried to refute it earlier.
But he hasn't. There's the rub.

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I haven't devalued Staal at all. Cite on thing I wrote about his weaknesses that was wrong.
The whole premise of suggesting Staal and Bolland's values are similar does that. They were so far apart production-wise this season that the idea is absurd.

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And seriously, you're basing the inherent difference between them on what fans have posted oh HF about proposals?

I'm laughing so hard I'm crying. Instant classic, unintentional I'm sure but holy hell man.
The difference between them is the giant production gap this year, which understandably leads to nobody wanting Bolland as a 2nd line center because he's 25 and has never, ever produced at a pace befitting that role, while Staal's 23 and has.

Keep laughing though. Laughing without a 2nd line center.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 05-28-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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05-28-2012, 05:47 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
It's all there and it's all accurate. I really can't help you if you don't know the difference between seasons and years. I guess you need the full quote, again? Here you go...

It's all there. Feel free to pin the confusion on me. Nothing there is inaccurate. Nothing.
Post #119

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Once again, since you missed it before apparently, there is no doubt you've seen more of Jeffrey. However, he is being transitioned from a scoring C and PP point to a checking role in the NHL so let's not act like he is a lock. Even in WSB as recently as this past year, he played the same role.
Scoring center; as recently as this past year in WSB

So next you will tell me that he was a scoring pivot for this magical WSB team while injured last Fall?

I think the Pens would of had an issue with that.

I will ask for the last time, are you done making things up?

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As for Staal, you still can't seem to address it, huh? Just easier to try and call me out for errors that were not made. Staal faced the toughest competition against opposing lines than any other C on the Pens. That is fact and we both know it. Love how you steered clear of the double shifting and more limited PK minutes, again both of which are true.
I've addressed the Staal issue on 5 separate occasions. Feel free to come to the Pens board and ask what his role was. You will find the same answer.

We both know trying to drag out the Staal issue is a smokescreen...

I'm still waiting for your answer.

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05-28-2012, 05:52 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The whole premise of suggesting Staal and Bolland's values are similar does that. They were so far apart production-wise this season that the idea is absurd.
Yes, for one year. As I stated before, Dubinsky had a nice point total ascension going to and what happened. And you continue to look past Staal's more offensive role. Would that not give him an advantage over someone who historically produced very similar numbers, especially on the other guy did not have that same advantage?

Hmmm....

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05-28-2012, 05:53 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, the Sedins all had "down years". Are their values significantly diminished because of this? I put "down year" in quotations because it is a rudimentary statement ignoring multiple variables. Injury, the entire west having "down years", etc etc etc.
Yes, they are, especially relative to similar, younger players who had breakout seasons.

It's not hard to imagine Eberle being worth as much or more than Perry right now, etc.

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I disagree is not a discernible argument.
I already explained the distinctions I made. You said my argument was stupid and I was wrong, so there's little else to add.

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You have 2 very similar players. One is a UFA at the end of the season who you cannot guarantee even stays with your club, and even if he does will command minimum $6m a year, and the other is locked up at $5m for multiple years.

These two players do not have the same value. There is no universe wherein anyone would value them the same, based simply on a contractual basis. Upcoming UFA's do not have the same value as guys locked up to stellar contracts, as proven in every trade in the history of hockey. As would be told to you by every General Manager in the NHL.
We've been over this. You're just regurgitating now.

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Then you add in the fact that Kesler has proven to be what Staal hopes to become, and it shows you to be even more wrong.

Doesn't matter how you look at it, you're just wrong.
I disagree, for all the reasons I outlined earlier that you don't consider valid (you know, like the past year's performance). Oh well.

Happy posting.

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05-28-2012, 05:58 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Post #119


Scoring center; as recently as this past year in WSB

So next you will tell me that he was a scoring pivot for this magical WSB team while injured last Fall?

I think the Pens would of had an issue with that.

I will ask for the last time, are you done making things up?


I've addressed the Staal issue on 5 separate occasions. Feel free to come to the Pens board and ask what his role was. You will find the same answer.

We both know trying to drag out the Staal issue is a smokescreen...

I'm still waiting for your answer.
Yes, in 2011, the later half of the 2010-11 season. Is that tough to understand? You initially said he played solely a checking line role. He didn't. He got more PK time.

Look, it's apparent you're upset I said your valuations were off and that Jeffrey wouldn't be point producing checking line center. That's all it takes to try and misrepresent what I posted?

No, you haven't answered the Staal question. You've dogged it so I'll ask it another way. When in the lineup, did Jordan Staal face the toughest opposing lines? Yes or no? Think you do that?

In the meantime, go back to the original discussion in this thread. Your question has been answered multiple times. You just don't like it because it criticizes a favorite of yours.

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05-28-2012, 06:00 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Yes, for one year. As I stated before, Dubinsky had a nice point total ascension going to and what happened. And you continue to look past Staal's more offensive role.
Yes, and Dubinsky's value improved dramatically after he had that year. That's what happens when a player does well the previous season.

Some players regress, some don't. Nothing revelatory here.

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Would that not give him an advantage over someone who historically produced very similar numbers, especially on the other guy did not have that same advantage?

Hmmm....
Staal did it (at 23) and Bolland hasn't (at 25), which is why one is coveted as a scoring line center and the other isn't.

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05-28-2012, 06:58 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
I don't like that D core at all. I don't see how you can say it is a strength.

Even if you plug Despres into it, he isn't going to anchor your second pairing going forward like you hope he will. I just don't see Pitt as having a solid D core.
Not a solid D core? Why is that, it was pretty effective for us last season when Crosby and Malkin went down and it was pretty effective this year when we were without Crosby. And I disagree with you about Despres, he is ready for the top 4 as he took Martin's spot a couple of times in the lineup and I saw him make next to no mistakes and he played smart hockey.

If we take on Edler, then that creates a log jam, and I read your comment about us having a log jam of bottom pairing defensemen. Despres, Morrow and Harrington are all going to be top 4 defensemen. If we trade Martin, Despres steps in, if Orpik is moved or retires at some point in the future, we have Harrington or Morrow to move into that spot.

It all depends on how they develop but as of right now, their future looks bright. If we bring in Edler, we are blocking these players from getting a chance.

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It is about cap management and team structure. The way you're structured now, with 25% of your cap eaten up by 2 players at the center position, you can't really expect to throw in a 5-6m winger and still maintain organizational depth in the bottom 6 and top 4 on D. It just doesn't work like that.

Your cap structure is one where you plug cheap (and hopefully effective) wingers around your superstar centers.
Why not? We are paying Staal $4M to be a 3rd line center, he's due for a raise around $5M - $6M+ and we signed a cheap winger to plug into the lineup in Steve Sullivan. What would be the difference if we spent the Staal money on a top 6 winger for Crosby and use the Sullivan money on a 3rd line center? Keep in mind I'm not looking to fill the top 6 with amazing wingers, we could use Staal to get a top 6 winger and still have guys like Kunitz and Dupuis in the top 6.

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If you want to do what you're talking about, you need to trade Malkin. Not Staal. Pick up a Pahlsson type player to center the 3rd line, and that will structure your team in a manner where you can realistically have elite and expensive wingers while simultaneously maintaining strong depth in the bottom 6 and on D.
Why do we need to trade Malkin for 1 top 6 impact winger? Trading Malkin would get us more in a trade but he's also untouchable, there is no reason to trade Malkin as there is no question about his position. He's the 2C on this team, would rather have Crosby, Malkin, _____, Vitale than Crosby, Staal, ____, Vitale.

Like I said, we can use Staal's money on an impact winger for the top 6 and use Sullivan's money + (since the cap is increasing) to sign a checkling line center for the 3rd line that has playoff experience. Dominic Moore is a good player in the playoffs. Pahlsson won a Cup as Anaheim's 3rd line center. There are options there, but the only option for impact top 6 winger would be Parise, and while we would like him, I don't expect him to be a Penguin, we can acquire a great winger for Staal that would cost the Pens $5M - $6M (just like Staal would in the future) and we could use $2M or less on a good 3rd line center.

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05-28-2012, 07:17 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post
Yes, in 2011, the later half of the 2010-11 season. Is that tough to understand? You initially said he played solely a checking line role. He didn't. He got more PK time.

Look, it's apparent you're upset I said your valuations were off and that Jeffrey wouldn't be point producing checking line center. That's all it takes to try and misrepresent what I posted?

No, you haven't answered the Staal question. You've dogged it so I'll ask it another way. When in the lineup, did Jordan Staal face the toughest opposing lines? Yes or no? Think you do that?

In the meantime, go back to the original discussion in this thread. Your question has been answered multiple times. You just don't like it because it criticizes a favorite of yours.
Unreal. You can't even keep straight what you said, let alone what I said.

Anyone with a shred of credibility would of manned up after having their own words catch them in several lies, yet you continue on, still twisting things, still trying to save face. You were so adamant you didn't say these things, then twist it to new heights when I post your quote. I mean... That is... Damn...

So basically now you have twisted things so that you meant "two seasons ago and a scoring role" all despite your words completely having a different meaning. So be it.

Think whatever, say whatever. You have no credibility left.

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05-28-2012, 07:49 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Think whatever, say whatever. You have no credibility left.
Jesus... really!? Why not both of you give it up and move on... I don't know about everyone else but I stopped reading your posts once you started arguing whether Dustin Freaking Jeffrey could handle being a 3rd line center. Yes that's right... not a top 4 d or a top 6 forward... you're disputing whether he can be a bottom 6 player. Who cares!? If he can, great. If he can't, then sign a UFA who can (there's several out there as FAs).

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05-28-2012, 07:55 PM
  #436
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I disagree.

The thing with the top 6 wing position is that the 2 best players in the world are centering those lines. Crosby and Malkin can turn almost any player into a 25+ goal scorer. Offensive output isn't really at the forefront of Pittsburgh's problems. While admittedly their wingers leave something to be desired, that is the whole point behind having nearly 20m at 1 and 2c. You can plug around them and still be outstanding.

Where I see a big need for Pitt is a LH dman for the top 4 who can QB the 2nd unit PP, that has good puck moving skills and can show a serious physical presence.

It would allow Pitt to spread out a little more on the PP, and have 2 outstanding units. Not to mention everything Edler bring in terms of puck moving, puck possession, physicality and 5 on 5 play.

Edit: I dont see D as an organizational strength, with all due respect. I see Pitt as being logjammed with up and coming bottom pairing Dmen.
You are obviously not looking very hard. Morrow, Despres, Harrington all are more than bottom pair guys.

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05-28-2012, 07:58 PM
  #437
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The only logjam is that both Strait and Bortuzzo will have to on waivers next year and both look ready for a bottom pairing role.

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05-28-2012, 08:07 PM
  #438
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Your PP is a large debate. I doubt adding in a winger changes the dynamic like you say it does. Throw in a RH shot, and you will still have Crosby and Malkin working the half boards on the right side.

What you need imo, is to spread out more on the PP. Have 2 viable units, instead of loading up on one. To do that you need another Letang.

Well, fair enough. Like I said, the only player on that list I see you getting is Sharp. I suppose you could probably work a deal to get that done.

Again, Shero talking about Center positions and him reevaluating team structure has to do with cap. Which I mentioned above in one of my posts. It is the biggest thing inhibiting you guys from doing what it is you claim to want to do.

Your current cap structure does not permit elite star wingers if you want to have any depth in your bottom 6 and on D. I don't want to reiterate my points, so please just scroll up and read.
Our PP was vastly improved last year over the prior year due to adding Sullivan. The hope of adding one of the aforementioned wingers is to not only help the PP, but also to give Sid a legit scoring threat to work with. Not only would those wingers help the PP, but also create match-up problems 5 on 5.

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05-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #439
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Patrick Sharp for a signed Jordan Staal.

I can post this all day.

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05-28-2012, 08:21 PM
  #440
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Just a thought.....We have had almost 4,500 Jordan Staal speculation posts in a couple of weeks. We have seen fans from a lot of teams come to the thread with proposals for him to "their" team. However, when we Pens fans say that it will take a premium to get him from Shero, everyone says nobody will want him for anything more than spare parts.

I just find it funny that everyone wants him, but nobody feels he they will have to give up anything to get him.

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05-28-2012, 08:39 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
Patrick Sharp for a signed Jordan Staal.

I can post this all day.
if he's signed to a decent deal, Staal's value > Sharp's

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05-28-2012, 08:40 PM
  #442
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if he's signed to a decent deal, Staal's value > Sharp's
Fine, we'll call the Sharks about Pavs

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05-28-2012, 08:44 PM
  #443
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Fine, we'll call the Sharks about Pavs
I'm sure they'll want your overpaid player on the downside of his career.

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05-28-2012, 08:50 PM
  #444
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I'm sure they'll want your overpaid player on the downside of his career.
Almost a PPG forward for the past two seasons. How is he declining?

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05-28-2012, 08:55 PM
  #445
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Almost a PPG forward for the past two seasons. How is he declining?
Didn't say he had already started the decline but he'll be 31 next year and at 5.9 mil til 2017, thats not something I would be all that interested in.

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05-28-2012, 08:56 PM
  #446
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Didn't say he had already started the decline but he'll be 31 next year and at 5.9 mil til 2017, thats not something I would be all that interested in.
He gives you a top 6 LW for potential cup runs in the immediate future. Isn't that the goal of moving Staal?

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05-28-2012, 08:59 PM
  #447
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
He gives you a top 6 LW for potential cup runs in the immediate future. Isn't that the goal of moving Staal?
yes, If we moved Staal for Sharp right now straight up, I would be ok with that. However, if Staal is signed to a long term deal with a cap number similar to Sharp's then I'd rather have Staal. He gives us a shutdown center, 30 goal potential and a great penalty killer for the immediate future and for more years to come. You implied before that only a signed Staal would get Sharp, I disagreed. He's a great player, I wouldn't trade a signed 23 year old center for him though.

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05-28-2012, 09:01 PM
  #448
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
yes, If we moved Staal for Sharp right now straight up, I would be ok with that. However, if Staal is signed to a long term deal with a cap number similar to Sharp's then I'd rather have Staal. He gives us a shutdown center, 30 goal potential and a great penalty killer for the immediate future and for more years to come. You implied before that only a signed Staal would get Sharp, I disagreed. He's a great player, I wouldn't trade a signed 23 year old center for him though.
Ok, reasonable. How about Sharp for Staal with a general agreement that he would sign with the Hawks?

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05-28-2012, 09:01 PM
  #449
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Didn't say he had already started the decline but he'll be 31 next year and at 5.9 mil til 2017, thats not something I would be all that interested in.
Yeah, I agree. I hate to turn down a Patrick Sharp offer because he fills a need for us and is a better offensive player than Staal is or may ever be. The age difference is a killer though. Staal has his best hockey still ahead of him while Sharp has some of his best hockey still ahead of him but a lot of it behind him too. We also have a shot at re-signing Staal for close to Sharp's big cap hit.

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05-28-2012, 09:04 PM
  #450
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Yeah, I agree. I hate to turn down a Patrick Sharp offer because he fills a need for us and is a better offensive player than Staal is or may ever be. The age difference is a killer though. Staal has his best hockey still ahead of him while Sharp has some of his best hockey still ahead of him but a lot of it behind him too. We also have a shot at re-signing Staal for close to Sharp's big cap hit.
I'd make the deal. But I see Shero wanting younger piece/s back. Staal hasn't even hit his prime yet.

Sharp is exactly what we could use in the present though. Would be tough to turn down.

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