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Scott Mellanby named Director of Player Personnel

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05-29-2012, 07:36 AM
  #201
Miller Time
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Originally Posted by MasterDecoy View Post
yeah but i don't like to call bergevin that because that other senile moron already appropriated the nickname.

also, did anybody really defend the 'skeleton crew' approach? i was under the impression that this was one of the rare things the entire habs board could agree on, from the raging lunatics, to the sensible posters; that we needed to hire more staff.
I believe the main argument put forward by some revolved around "they know better, who are you to critique" rationale... And the " laffs suck and they have a big staff therefore having a big staff sucks" reasoning.

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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Ribeiro and Robidas have nothing to do with Montreal's player development of late.

You claim Kostitsyn wasn't developed properly, but there's no evidence to the contrary on this. You claim that the two (drafting and development) can be "separated easily," and yet you cite two examples from several regimes ago, and one example where there is no evidence to substantiate your claim.




That's proof of poor asset management, not poor player development. If anything, it's evidence of excellent player development--especially since a healthy majority of those players were indeed developed in Montreal's system.
Your assuming that ur notion of "development" is by default the standard...

IMO development can be boiled down to maximizing a players performance.

There is a long list of players whose performance and utility shot up immediately after leaving Montreal. A big part of that was simple access to opportunity, but it's difficult if not impossible to develop without proper opportunity.

I don't know that it makes much sense to discuss player development as an isolated issue apart from broader asset management.
Players are assets, their development is a big part of what is "managed".
A team develops a player/asset to maximize their utility be it via performance contributions or as a trade chip.
Habs failed miserably in that regard under Gaineys watch, at least under any logical interpretation of asset management.


Last edited by Habsfan18: 05-29-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: merge
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05-29-2012, 07:55 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Your assuming that ur notion of "development" is by default the standard...

IMO development can be boiled down to maximizing a players performance.

There is a long list of players whose performance and utility shot up immediately after leaving Montreal. A big part of that was simple access to opportunity, but it's difficult if not impossible to develop without proper opportunity.

I don't know that it makes much sense to discuss player development as an isolated issue apart from broader asset management.
Players are assets, their development is a big part of what is "managed".
A team develops a player/asset to maximize their utility be it via performance contributions or as a trade chip.
Habs failed miserably in that regard under Gaineys watch, at least under any logical interpretation of asset management.
Right, under any logical interpretation of asset management. By your own words, a player can be developed perfectly fine, but absent proper opportunity, they'll never thrive. Right? And so we've come full circle: you concur with my perspective of development.

Which, by the way, isn't my perspective so much as what the word actually means.

If player X is drafted by Montreal, given a nutritional regimen and attends a couple of training and development camps each year, turns pro and plays for Montreal's farm club for a year or two (or more), attending more training and development camps, then gets shipped off to another club and thrives, where's the managerial fault? In asset management, or development?

The answer is simple: asset management. Those responsible for making the decision to deal player X are at fault. Those responsible for developing him did a great job, and the evidence of this is that player X is now thriving.

...

And yes, it makes perfect sense to discuss development as an isolated managerial concept (at least separate from asset management), because these are two unique components to a management team that can be assessed independently. Montreal has done well in development, but incredibly poorly at times in asset management. It's why Gainey/Gauthier (asset management) were lambasted for dealing McDonagh, while fans were relieved to learn that Timmins (the developer) was against--and, in fact, it seems he wasn't even privy--to the potential of McDonagh being dealt.

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05-29-2012, 10:45 AM
  #203
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I hope he will do things like help players transition from junior to pro league. IE mentor the rookies, and help them to adapt to their new environment. Give them advice and guidance to help manage pressure. and settle into the NHL. give them orientation etc.

i think this is very important for younger players stepping into the NHL, and with the number of rookies the habs have in the near future this will be an important aspect for developing their younger players.

Im glad Mellanby is joining the team. I love TT, but he had too much on his plate. this will allow more concentration on different tasks, and can only help the organization overall.

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05-29-2012, 11:27 AM
  #204
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Hopefully Mellanby can teach younger players how to live and survive in this league.

You have to think a guy like him wouldve been able to help Sergei, Latendresse, Ribeiro, and Grabovski grow up as players.

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05-29-2012, 01:38 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Mostly both probably. Excellent news too. Carriere and Dudley will be all pro player scouting and nothing else.
Pro scouting has been atrocious. Hopefully changes wont piss off Timmins.

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05-29-2012, 01:42 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Hopefully Mellanby can teach younger players how to live and survive in this league.

You have to think a guy like him wouldve been able to help Sergei, Latendresse, Ribeiro, and Grabovski grow up as players.
Exactly, having an ex-player in that capacity will do wonders! Development , especially in Montreal is about begavior off-ice as much as hockey wise. I have no idea why it took so long for them to realise this.

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Pro scouting has been atrocious. Hopefully changes wont piss off Timmins.
So TimmIns is a diva now? Who cares what he thinks. Why wouldn't he want to be a team player ?


Last edited by Habsfan18: 05-29-2012 at 01:51 PM. Reason: merge
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05-29-2012, 01:53 PM
  #207
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Would you guys consider hiring someone like Stéphane Richer as some kind of player personnal counsellor ? I think his personnal experiences could be helpful to the younger guys.

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05-29-2012, 01:57 PM
  #208
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Bergevin is as québécois as they come. Mellanby and Carrière were born in Montreal and are billingual.

I don't care that much about the "french factor". I just tought that what you said sounded really wrong.
And in my opinion Alain Vignault was one of the best coachs the habs have ever had and is bilingual.

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05-30-2012, 02:09 PM
  #209
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Would you guys consider hiring someone like Stéphane Richer as some kind of player personnal counsellor ? I think his personnal experiences could be helpful to the younger guys.
Experience =/= ability to do counselling. But I do not know him personally, maybe he'd be great at it... just saying you can't link his experience with his potential ability.

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05-30-2012, 02:37 PM
  #210
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Right, under any logical interpretation of asset management. By your own words, a player can be developed perfectly fine, but absent proper opportunity, they'll never thrive. Right? And so we've come full circle: you concur with my perspective of development.

Which, by the way, isn't my perspective so much as what the word actually means.

If player X is drafted by Montreal, given a nutritional regimen and attends a couple of training and development camps each year, turns pro and plays for Montreal's farm club for a year or two (or more), attending more training and development camps, then gets shipped off to another club and thrives, where's the managerial fault? In asset management, or development?

The answer is simple: asset management. Those responsible for making the decision to deal player X are at fault. Those responsible for developing him did a great job, and the evidence of this is that player X is now thriving.

...

And yes, it makes perfect sense to discuss development as an isolated managerial concept (at least separate from asset management), because these are two unique components to a management team that can be assessed independently. Montreal has done well in development, but incredibly poorly at times in asset management. It's why Gainey/Gauthier (asset management) were lambasted for dealing McDonagh, while fans were relieved to learn that Timmins (the developer) was against--and, in fact, it seems he wasn't even privy--to the potential of McDonagh being dealt.
Development is just one part/component of how an asset is managed... Might be a semantic difference, though I think it's a bit more.

Timmins had no influence over how lapierre/d'ago/Skost/obyrne/lats Et. were developed once they hit the habs lineup (and under the old regime, I'm not sure that he had much influence/contact with them once they turned pro), so how do you independently evaluate how they were developed?

I don't think you can.

You look at how the asset was managed, start to finish in their time with the organization. The development component falls under too many distinct areas to be isolated IMO. The GM's role is, or should be, to coordinate those areas to ensure the asset is properly managed start to finish. Much easier to do with a large & competent staff empowered to "lead" their departments, as opposed to one guy believing he can control it all himself.

Gainey, and Gauthier failed as much from a poor management structure that caused them to mishandle assets at various stages (including early development) as they Did from poor last stage (trade) decision making.

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05-30-2012, 03:50 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
Development is just one part/component of how an asset is managed... Might be a semantic difference, though I think it's a bit more.

Timmins had no influence over how lapierre/d'ago/Skost/obyrne/lats Et. were developed once they hit the habs lineup (and under the old regime, I'm not sure that he had much influence/contact with them once they turned pro), so how do you independently evaluate how they were developed?
Easily, in fact. You look at how they were developed until they made the team. After that point, as you've rightly noted, it's out of the player development staff's hands and more in the coaching staff's hands. As such, the player development staff can be evaluated based on the player's development to that point.

You seem to want to obfuscate the point of this for the sake of it. I'm in agreement that much of a front office's duties are beyond our, as fans', grasp, some things are readily apparent, such as: good drafting + good development = lots of man games. Timmins, and the Habs, have excelled on all fronts of this equation.

Now, if there was good drafting + bad development, or bad drafting + good development, it'd be a whole lot harder to evaluate the scouting and development staffs respectively. Fortunately, we don't have that problem, as the club's been strong in both drafting and development, which is why we can pinpoint the club's fatal flaw: asset management.

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05-30-2012, 05:02 PM
  #212
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Easily, in fact. You look at how they were developed until they made the team. After that point, as you've rightly noted, it's out of the player development staff's hands and more in the coaching staff's hands. As such, the player development staff can be evaluated based on the player's development to that point.

You seem to want to obfuscate the point of this for the sake of it. I'm in agreement that much of a front office's duties are beyond our, as fans', grasp, some things are readily apparent, such as: good drafting + good development = lots of man games. Timmins, and the Habs, have excelled on all fronts of this equation.

Now, if there was good drafting + bad development, or bad drafting + good development, it'd be a whole lot harder to evaluate the scouting and development staffs respectively. Fortunately, we don't have that problem, as the club's been strong in both drafting and development, which is why we can pinpoint the club's fatal flaw: asset management.
Are you suggesting that once a player makes the big club no more development is required? Seems like you're arguing semantics here more than anything.

I find our players have been severely mismanaged at the pro level at a young age and still consider them being developed even though they're on the big club, but yes, it's more an asset management beef with me as well, but I do find lats ect were giving the shaft by their coaches and eventually the gm, most likely on the advice of the coach, however, I think this all ties in with development to a certain degree.

Managing or developing a player doesn't stop because he made the NHL.

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05-31-2012, 05:55 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Easily, in fact. You look at how they were developed until they made the team. After that point, as you've rightly noted, it's out of the player development staff's hands and more in the coaching staff's hands. As such, the player development staff can be evaluated based on the player's development to that point.

You seem to want to obfuscate the point of this for the sake of it. I'm in agreement that much of a front office's duties are beyond our, as fans', grasp, some things are readily apparent, such as: good drafting + good development = lots of man games. Timmins, and the Habs, have excelled on all fronts of this equation.

Now, if there was good drafting + bad development, or bad drafting + good development, it'd be a whole lot harder to evaluate the scouting and development staffs respectively. Fortunately, we don't have that problem, as the club's been strong in both drafting and development, which is why we can pinpoint the club's fatal flaw: asset management.
http://legrandclub.rds.ca/profils/60.../141576/public

As most of us were trying to explain to you, per Timmins himself, the task is too big to draft and develop and did not have enough time and needed to concentrate on drafting so he ask Bergevin to replace him for development, because our development was not at its best!

As simple as that.

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05-31-2012, 09:56 AM
  #214
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Are you suggesting that once a player makes the big club no more development is required? Seems like you're arguing semantics here more than anything.
Nope, that's not what I'm suggesting, nor did I imply that at any point.


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Originally Posted by Subban76
As most of us were trying to explain to you, per Timmins himself, the task is too big to draft and develop and did not have enough time and needed to concentrate on drafting so he ask Bergevin to replace him for development
Actually, that's not what our discussion was about at all.

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05-31-2012, 10:14 AM
  #215
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Easily, in fact. You look at how they were developed until they made the team. After that point, as you've rightly noted, it's out of the player development staff's hands and more in the coaching staff's hands. As such, the player development staff can be evaluated based on the player's development to that point.

You seem to want to obfuscate the point of this for the sake of it. I'm in agreement that much of a front office's duties are beyond our, as fans', grasp, some things are readily apparent, such as: good drafting + good development = lots of man games. Timmins, and the Habs, have excelled on all fronts of this equation.

Now, if there was good drafting + bad development, or bad drafting + good development, it'd be a whole lot harder to evaluate the scouting and development staffs respectively. Fortunately, we don't have that problem, as the club's been strong in both drafting and development, which is why we can pinpoint the club's fatal flaw: asset management.
I don't think it's that simple. You can get by in the juniors and minors a lot easier just based on your skills. It doesn't mean you were being developed well. At the same time, it doesn't mean you weren't well developed. I just don't think it's as simple as that.

Developping prospects is part of asset management. So whatever you want to call it, it's the same to me really.

It did seem like Timmins had too much on his plate. I'm a strength and conditioning coach, so I know developing youn athletes is a full time gig in itself. Being the head of scouting and preparing combines on top of it, I can't imagine our kids getting the best development possible.

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05-31-2012, 10:21 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I don't think it's that simple. You can get by in the juniors and minors a lot easier just based on your skills. It doesn't mean you were being developed well. At the same time, it doesn't mean you weren't well developed. I just don't think it's as simple as that.
I'm having a hard time understanding where the breakdown in communication is happening here. Given that multiple people seem to be arguing points that I'm not (intending) to make, I'm assuming now that the problem lies with me!

With that said, I'm not arguing what you've stated above. I'm making it very simple by saying that having an end-result of many man-games played by a team's drafted players is the consequence of having good drafting and good development.

Put another way: because Montreal's draft record under Timmins includes the most NHL games played, this means that the team's drafting philosophy and development has been good.

It doesn't mean, however, that the drafting or development aspects can't get any better. It can, which is why the recent hires (of the USHL scout and Mellanby, respectively) are good ones.

...

Now, in terms of what 'asset management' means in this context: I'm talking exclusively about the way the asset is managed insofar as its trade value. In other words, the GM's internal evaluation. This is an entirely different field of management to development.

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05-31-2012, 02:30 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Easily, in fact. You look at how they were developed until they made the team. After that point, as you've rightly noted, it's out of the player development staff's hands and more in the coaching staff's hands. As such, the player development staff can be evaluated based on the player's development to that point.

You seem to want to obfuscate the point of this for the sake of it. I'm in agreement that much of a front office's duties are beyond our, as fans', grasp, some things are readily apparent, such as: good drafting + good development = lots of man games. Timmins, and the Habs, have excelled on all fronts of this equation.

Now, if there was good drafting + bad development, or bad drafting + good development, it'd be a whole lot harder to evaluate the scouting and development staffs respectively. Fortunately, we don't have that problem, as the club's been strong in both drafting and development, which is why we can pinpoint the club's fatal flaw: asset management.
Asset = hockey player
Managing = drafting, developing, signing, playing, trading

Pretty straight forward I'd say.

Also, it's near impossible, in your version, to place more than a marginal amount of credit to the team for "developing" a player btw draft & playing pro in the organization.

Yes, there's camps & recommended programs & a degree of regular contact (which, for the habs under gainey/Gauthier) was likely much less consistent/frequent than for ted who hired a dedicated person for that role (unlike TT, who held those duties on top of his primary role running draft).

Players playing for months under the guidance of a coach & program that the team have no control/direct influence on, are being "developed" primarily by the coach/te they play for.

Not until they arrive in Montreal (Hamilton) is their development truly in the hands of the team... And as you agreed, at that point the coaching decisions take a leading role.

GM is ultimately responsible for managing the asset from draft to departure.

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05-31-2012, 02:41 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
I'm having a hard time understanding where the breakdown in communication is happening here. Given that multiple people seem to be arguing points that I'm not (intending) to make, I'm assuming now that the problem lies with me!

With that said, I'm not arguing what you've stated above. I'm making it very simple by saying that having an end-result of many man-games played by a team's drafted players is the consequence of having good drafting and good development.

Put another way: because Montreal's draft record under Timmins includes the most NHL games played, this means that the team's drafting philosophy and development has been good.

It doesn't mean, however, that the drafting or development aspects can't get any better. It can, which is why the recent hires (of the USHL scout and Mellanby, respectively) are good ones.

...

Now, in terms of what 'asset management' means in this context: I'm talking exclusively about the way the asset is managed insofar as its trade value. In other words, the GM's internal evaluation. This is an entirely different field of management to development.
Replied to ur last direct response to me before I saw this post...

You've hit the nail on the head, and it's what I was trying (unsuccessfully it seems), to point out in my first response.

One Can't assume everyone shares the same interpretation as they do when it comes to terms like asset management or player development.

Otherwise, we might feel exactly the same way about a situation, but end up arguing in circles bc of semantic issues as opposed to legitimate differences.

I can see, and even somewhat agree with ur point that NHL games played by habs drafted players reflects positively on BOTH draft/development... But as I define/interpret "development" (which includes how players are handled once formally playing for the organization), I see that area as part of the broader management failures, with only drafting standing out as a clear positive.

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05-31-2012, 07:17 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Hopefully Mellanby can teach younger players how to live and survive in this league.

You have to think a guy like him wouldve been able to help Sergei, Latendresse, Ribeiro, and Grabovski grow up as players.
Seems to me that all the players you listed did pretty good for themselves. The problem isn't that they were poorly developed in Montreal but that the team gave up on them too early in their development. Big difference there.

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