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05-29-2012, 01:11 PM
  #226
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Turning those dmen into wingers is fine and dandy but trading for wingers on expensive deals, or who will need them like Neal, is what has necessitated so much roster turnover the past few off seasons.

Noone can deny there'd be no talk of trading Staal if Neal wasn't making 5 mil now. But weve basically got to choose one or the other. If you had an entry level guy who could've replaced kunitz or sully then we could've kept a Rupp or a talbot or maybe both. 2 players who now appeared to be fairly critical appeared to our playoff performance.

The point isn't that Shero made bad deals or managed assets badly. The point is if he drafted better early on in his tenure and focused a bit more on supplementing his teams strength, the centers, word probably have more assets to use and supplement the team with.

I mean can anyone honestly say wed be at a major loss in our prospect pool if highish picks on guys like veilleux, sneep, strait, samuelsson, etc were were used solely on wingers? I doubt it considering none of those guys are standout prospects.
I think I missed the memo where you can only trade young blueliners for fwds who have expensive deals. The Pens most NHL ready fwd came via trading Whitney.

Rundblad was turned into not one, but two talented young fwds for his last two respective teams.

People flipped when CP took GoGo... There was Whitney, Welch, Scuderi, Fata, Nemec and Fernholm all in the pipeline and all of them seemed promising. Why the **** did he waste a pick on ths little midget out of HS? MFERBBQ!

Should I mention again all of the crying when Despres and Morrow were taken?

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05-29-2012, 01:11 PM
  #227
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Talbot bounced around in that lineup & I don't think he was ever below the 3rd line. Cooke, Kennedy, Dupuis. We kind of have enough of those guys that he wasn't going to get the playing time even at winger.

I do hope we can improve that 4th line though.

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05-29-2012, 02:10 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think I missed the memo where you can only trade young blueliners for fwds who have expensive deals. The Pens most NHL ready fwd came via trading Whitney.

Rundblad was turned into not one, but two talented young fwds for his last two respective teams.

People flipped when CP took GoGo... There was Whitney, Welch, Scuderi, Fata, Nemec and Fernholm all in the pipeline and all of them seemed promising. Why the **** did he waste a pick on ths little midget out of HS? MFERBBQ!

Should I mention again all of the crying when Despres and Morrow were taken?

Good points from your post and the one you replied to. There's no wrong way to build and maintain a team, and if there's a GM out there who never makes the wrong draft pick I'd sure like to meet him.

Ray Shero's defense men have not panned out yet, but that doesn't mean they never will. And that's kind of the problem, isn't it? Defense men (almost all of them) need considerable playing time to develope. And it can take 4-6 years before they have the necessary skill and experience to handle big NHL minutes. And that's if they pan out in the first place. Ray Shero had to pay big Free Agent market prices to fill the time gap.

Wingers, can take just as long as defense men. But their positions are considerably easier to master, and as a result they usually can hon their skills a little quicker, and with less ice time.

The Pens are in a cap vice grip, paying big money to forwards and defense men. That's just the price of success. But it's reasonable to suggest that IF they found wingers as the BPA at the time, they would have entry level deals to use. ELD can mean a maintained level of success while prioviding cap flexibility.

The cap can be flexible, or it can loom like an albatrose.


Last edited by Play4Miracles*: 05-29-2012 at 02:24 PM. Reason: i was eating a hoagie with one hand and typing on a smart phone with the other
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05-29-2012, 02:39 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think I missed the memo where you can only trade young blueliners for fwds who have expensive deals. The Pens most NHL ready fwd came via trading Whitney.

Rundblad was turned into not one, but two talented young fwds for his last two respective teams.

People flipped when CP took GoGo... There was Whitney, Welch, Scuderi, Fata, Nemec and Fernholm all in the pipeline and all of them seemed promising. Why the **** did he waste a pick on ths little midget out of HS? MFERBBQ!

Should I mention again all of the crying when Despres and Morrow were taken?
Our most NHL ready forward? Try the ONLY NHL ready forward, and a non impact one at that, who never produced on his elc. And therein lies the problem.

And you dont have to trade for Expensive wingers,but if you expect that winger to immediately contribute chances are your getting a player on at least their 2nd contract. Like Turris in your runblad case, he wanted 4 mil, got 2.8, and after next year will be 4+. Im not going to even include the draft pick he was traded for because there were other factors involved,he wasn't traded for a player he was traded for a pick.

The point still being that if we put just a lil more time into developing a supporting cast for our centers we wouldn't have to go through this every offseason. The reason we didnt during the cup runs was having Cros, Staal, Malkin on elcs allowed us to stack our roster for the playoffs, much the way Chicago did when they won and Boston did last year. Getting no production from elcs means no capspace at the deadline, like this year. And that means the Philly's of the world add the Grossman's, the LAs add the carters, and your stuck standing pat.

Then you could also ask, why did we sign two high priced dmen if were so intent on developing them internally? Because our hands are basically tied with guys stuck on the depth chart. Why not invest a few more picks on wingers if signing guys like Michalek,martin, hamhuis, etc was your plan anyway? It just makes little sense to have a depth chart so unbalanced, especially when you've got the 2 best centers in the world.

And dont give me the "we choose the bpa" crap. Esposito was the "bpa" in theory, but in reality not so much. And id like to hear an argument for sneep being the "bpa" for a team that wanted to be "tough to play against" and had lucic,mcginn, and kulemin sitting there in round 2 and marchand and clutterbuck in round 3 when we took strait. BPA is only as good as your teams scouts, and ours are pretty suspect.

Also its not like trading dmen is a quick fix. Crosby and Geno are going on 6-7 years in this organization and we finally have 2 permanent top 6 wingers, one of which is approaching his mid 30's now. Malone was the only internally developed player to play consistently with either sid or Geno their entire careers thus far. That's pathetic.

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05-29-2012, 02:49 PM
  #230
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
Good points from your post and the one you replied to. There's no wrong way to build and maintain a team, and if there's a GM out there who never makes the wrong draft pick I'd sure like to meet him.

Ray Shero's defense men have not panned out yet, but that doesn't mean they never will. And that's kind of the problem, isn't it? Defense men (almost all of them) need considerable playing time to develope. And it can take 4-6 years before they have the necessary skill and experience to handle big NHL minutes. And that's if they pan out in the first place. Ray Shero had to pay big Free Agent market prices to fill the time gap.

Wingers, can take just as long as defense men. But their positions are considerably easier to master, and as a result they usually can hon their skills a little quicker, and with less ice time.

The Pens are in a cap vice grip, paying big money to forwards and defense men. That's just the price of success. But it's reasonable to suggest that IF they found wingers as the BPA at the time, they would have entry level deals to use. ELD can mean a maintained level of success while prioviding cap flexibility.

The cap can be flexible, or it can loom like an albatrose.
I'm on record as saying this org hasn't shown me they can both draft and develop top six talent.

So I say go with your strengths; drafting and developing blueliners. Build the best and deepest farm in the league of blueliners and use those assets to land impact fwds.

There is a lot of talk on here how great the Flyers are at developing fwds, but their blueline farm is absolutely atrocious. I rank the Pens top 5 blueliners as:

Morrow
Despres
Bortuzzo
Harrington
Strait

I wouldn't trade my bottom guy, Strait, for any blueliner on the Flyers farm. They literally don't have one blueliner I would project as a top 4.

All about perspective.

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05-29-2012, 02:57 PM
  #231
Mr Jiggyfly
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Originally Posted by sina220 View Post
Our most NHL ready forward? Try the ONLY NHL ready forward, and a non impact one at that, who never produced on his elc. And therein lies the problem.

And you dont have to trade for Expensive wingers,but if you expect that winger to immediately contribute chances are your getting a player on at least their 2nd contract. Like Turris in your runblad case, he wanted 4 mil, got 2.8, and after next year will be 4+. Im not going to even include the draft pick he was traded for because there were other factors involved,he wasn't traded for a player he was traded for a pick.

The point still being that if we put just a lil more time into developing a supporting cast for our centers we wouldn't have to go through this every offseason. The reason we didnt during the cup runs was having Cros, Staal, Malkin on elcs allowed us to stack our roster for the playoffs, much the way Chicago did when they won and Boston did last year. Getting no production from elcs means no capspace at the deadline, like this year. And that means the Philly's of the world add the Grossman's, the LAs add the carters, and your stuck standing pat.

Then you could also ask, why did we sign two high priced dmen if were so intent on developing them internally? Because our hands are basically tied with guys stuck on the depth chart. Why not invest a few more picks on wingers if signing guys like Michalek,martin, hamhuis, etc was your plan anyway? It just makes little sense to have a depth chart so unbalanced, especially when you've got the 2 best centers in the world.

And dont give me the "we choose the bpa" crap. Esposito was the "bpa" in theory, but in reality not so much. And id like to hear an argument for sneep being the "bpa" for a team that wanted to be "tough to play against" and had lucic,mcginn, and kulemin sitting there in round 2 and marchand and clutterbuck in round 3 when we took strait. BPA is only as good as your teams scouts, and ours are pretty suspect.

Also its not like trading dmen is a quick fix. Crosby and Geno are going on 6-7 years in this organization and we finally have 2 permanent top 6 wingers, one of which is approaching his mid 30's now. Malone was the only internally developed player to play consistently with either sid or Geno their entire careers thus far. That's pathetic.
If you can't understand the value of building one of the best farms of blueliners in the league, and the asset leverage that brings, I can't help you then.

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05-29-2012, 03:03 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm on record as saying this org hasn't shown me they can both draft and develop top six talent.

So I say go with your strengths; drafting and developing blueliners. Build the best and deepest farm in the league of blueliners and use those assets to land impact fwds.

There is a lot of talk on here how great the Flyers are at developing fwds, but their blueline farm is absolutely atrocious. I rank the Pens top 5 blueliners as:

Morrow
Despres
Bortuzzo
Harrington
Strait

I wouldn't trade my bottom guy, Strait, for any blueliner on the Flyers farm. They literally don't have one blueliner I would project as a top 4.

All about perspective.
I was one of the ones screaming loudest, not so much the Morrow pick but when they went defense again round two. This year, I will have no problem at all if they do the same thing all over again if the draft falls as it did last year. I do not think that Shero has an aversion to drafting forwards, he did draft Esposito and Bennett. But he also has a record with drafting defense that has earned him a pass on any future moves. They are much stronger chips in the system than some random offensive player would have been. And are far more valuable now than they were when drafted.

Even given the benefit of hindsight, who would the Pens have drafted other than Morrow or Harrington that would have been better picks?

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05-29-2012, 03:24 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm on record as saying this org hasn't shown me they can both draft and develop top six talent.

So I say go with your strengths; drafting and developing blueliners. Build the best and deepest farm in the league of blueliners and use those assets to land impact fwds.

There is a lot of talk on here how great the Flyers are at developing fwds, but their blueline farm is absolutely atrocious. I rank the Pens top 5 blueliners as:

Morrow
Despres
Bortuzzo
Harrington
Strait

I wouldn't trade my bottom guy, Strait, for any blueliner on the Flyers farm. They literally don't have one blueliner I would project as a top 4.

All about perspective.

Yup, there's nothing wrong with having a lot of d-man prospects. Some teams seem to find better d-men prospects while spending less picks on them, than other teams do. Some teams want a lot of insurance. Organizational depth is a real balancing act, you can't draft the next can't miss Hasek even if he is available every round. At some point you have to tell your scouts that you can't play 6 goalies on the ice at the same time, even if the Rangers do. To a lesser extent, that same appraoch applies to the other positions as well. It's great when you think a guy is a MUST DRAFT every round, but at some point organizational depth catches up with you.

And I don't think that the Pens are so bad at finding and developing forwards that they have to overstock d-men so they can trade for them later. I just think that they REALLY feel that they are getting the best player available. They might need to be a little more picky now, or look to make some trades at the AHL level.

It's not a dire situation, in fact they don't even have to trade Staal if they don't want to. But Letang's first UF deal is going to be a massive increase, and if their d-prospects arent ready to step up, well something has got to give.

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05-29-2012, 03:27 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I was one of the ones screaming loudest, not so much the Morrow pick but when they went defense again round two. This year, I will have no problem at all if they do the same thing all over again if the draft falls as it did last year. I do not think that Shero has an aversion to drafting forwards, he did draft Esposito and Bennett. But he also has a record with drafting defense that has earned him a pass on any future moves. They are much stronger chips in the system than some random offensive player would have been. And are far more valuable now than they were when drafted.

Even given the benefit of hindsight, who would the Pens have drafted other than Morrow or Harrington that would have been better picks?
I hate playing the what if game and have learned to just let the guys who are paid good money, do their jobs.

Now if they take Aberg even if a good blueliner falls, I will be just as happy with that. Apparently this kid can be ready in a couple of yrs.

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05-29-2012, 07:12 PM
  #235
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They still need to take a stab at a forward if he's the BPA.

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05-29-2012, 10:26 PM
  #236
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Does the fact that Kuznetsov might never come over effect the rankings?
I dunno the only thing that I can think is that him signing a 2 yr deal in the KHL must be weighted very heavily in the rankings. Basically he's probably the best prospect in hockey and the other 4 of their top 5 are somewhere between really good - good prospects. So if they gave the Caps credit much at all for Kuznetsov theyd easily be in the top 15 if not 10.

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05-29-2012, 10:42 PM
  #237
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I don't know. If you look at Partick's drafts, they were really bad. Shero is producing as many if not more players than Patrick did. He had a nice little stretch at the end of his career, but look up through 2001, holy crapola.

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05-30-2012, 12:39 AM
  #238
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I don't know. If you look at Partick's drafts, they were really bad. Shero is producing as many if not more players than Patrick did. He had a nice little stretch at the end of his career, but look up through 2001, holy crapola.
I dunno it looks pretty solid to me. He got at least 1 full time NHLer in pretty well every draft with many of them having at least 2. He did a lot better past the 1st round.

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05-30-2012, 11:57 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

So I say go with your strengths; drafting and developing blueliners. Build the best and deepest farm in the league of blueliners and use those assets to land impact fwds.
I'd say now would be good to start looking into that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phaneuf_fan_3 View Post
I dunno it looks pretty solid to me. He got at least 1 full time NHLer in pretty well every draft with many of them having at least 2. He did a lot better past the 1st round.
He did have some good picks pan out late. Until Orpik or Morozov to an extent, his first rounders were awful.

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