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05-29-2012, 02:42 PM
  #26
DryIslandBartender
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I think you are taking to much credit towards DL here. Yeah, he did develop those players, but you still have to give Quick and Kopitar something here. They did the work and put in the time and effort. They coul have gone the way of POS, but they put inthe effort. DL deserves credit for their development, but it's not like he did it all.
DL put the system in place, which was NOT in place before. We never had a system of developing players we drafted...as much at Taylor wants to harp on drafting Kopi, Brown, Quick, he wouldn't have developed them because he didn't have a system in place to develop prospects. Kings never took development seriously until DL came along.

Brown, Kopi, and Quick put in hard work due to the system DL put in and that made them successful.

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05-29-2012, 02:54 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
You do realize you're putting down Lombardi with that comment as well, right? Taylor was set to get rid of Avery in 2006. Lombardi brought him back.
(scoff)

Taylor was the one that brought him in the first place...


Dean had no choice but to resign Avery to avoid arbitration. You might even want to commend DL for getting some value for Avery at the very least...

"Sometimes players just take a little time to mature. Sean's still young, hopefully he'll continue to do so. He's going to a big stage now. If he continues [to mature], he'll do just fine. From the summer, when I first got there, there wasn't much of a market for Sean Avery. He's made progress." Kings GM Dean Lombardi



That's called asset management folks.

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05-29-2012, 03:30 PM
  #28
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Few points...

1. Dave was a terrible drafter for the most part. And that is why he was fired. His results in the 2003 draft in particular were miserable, especially with the selection of Brian Boyle, another in the long line of massive project players Taylor was obsessed with drafting.

2. The "development" aspect is being way overrated here when it comes to certain players. Kopitar and Quick are world class talents, they would be star players on any team in the NHL. Brown is pretty much at that level as well. You guys are selling these guys way short by calling them system players.

3. The cupboard was not bare. Even with the poor drafting and some poor trades. Taylor still left Quick, Kopitar, Brown, Gleason, Cammalleri, Visnovsky and Belanger. The first three are currently are our best players, and the rest were trades away to help bring in pieces used to build the current team.

My thoughts on DT are that his drafting likely cost him his job. Horrendous picks in Zultek, Biron, Karlsson, Steckel, Tukonen, Tambellini and Boyle. The one constant there is size over skill, which DT and Al loved.

But you must give him credit for 2005, it's not easy to draft two superstars in one draft, and that day will likely salvage DT's legacy as GM of this team. Especially if one of his picks wins the Conn Smythe.

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05-29-2012, 03:39 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
(scoff)

Taylor was the one that brought him in the first place...


Dean had no choice but to resign Avery to avoid arbitration. You might even want to commend DL for getting some value for Avery at the very least...

"Sometimes players just take a little time to mature. Sean's still young, hopefully he'll continue to do so. He's going to a big stage now. If he continues [to mature], he'll do just fine. From the summer, when I first got there, there wasn't much of a market for Sean Avery. He's made progress." — Kings GM Dean Lombardi



That's called asset management folks.
Asset management? LOL.

FYI for those that don't remember: the Kings were fed up with Avery and were going to cut him loose by not qualifying him. Lombardi reversed course and kept Avery. Avery was then traded for Cliche (who will be a group VI UFA this summer), Jason Ward (who was traded for a fifth round draft pick that the Kings used on Josh Turnbull whom they didn't sign), Jan Marek, and a conditional third round draft pick if the Kings didn't sign Marek (which the Kings traded along with a fourth round draft pick so they could draft Andrew Campbell, who is due to become a group VI UFA next summer if he doesn't play 80+ NHL games next season).

So basically you want to slam Taylor for bringing Avery in and hurting Brown's development but then want to credit Lombardi for reversing course by keeping Avery and harming Brown's development all in the name if some mythical asset management? LOL.

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05-29-2012, 06:13 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
DL put the system in place, which was NOT in place before. We never had a system of developing players we drafted...as much at Taylor wants to harp on drafting Kopi, Brown, Quick, he wouldn't have developed them because he didn't have a system in place to develop prospects. Kings never took development seriously until DL came along.

Brown, Kopi, and Quick put in hard work due to the system DL put in and that made them successful.
Exactly! The drafting of Quick in my mind is no different than any of the other "throw a dart at the draft board of goalies" mindset Taylor and Al Murray seemed to use. It was never a priority, more of an after thought. What happened was we got a very good athletic goalie that was developed by Lombardi and not rushed.He learned from two guys who actually played in the NHL in Hextal and Ranford, that not only has help him, but every other goalie in our system.

Brown's early development would have been much better had he stayed in junior and spent a season in Manchester, instead of being rushed by Taylor. It always seemed to be the organizations M.O., get them into the nhl as soon as possible, even though they weren't ready.The Lombardi approach is the complete opposite and we're seeing results because of it.

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05-29-2012, 06:56 PM
  #31
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I don't know if Lombardi would have done anything differently with regards to Brown. Similar players in Simmonds and Clifford both made the jump to the NHL instead of playing in juniors, and Brown had done better than both of them in juniors.

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05-30-2012, 01:30 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Lombardi reversed course and kept Avery.
For half a season...not several seasons like DT did. In fact DT allowed Avery to make fun of Brown in the locker room, saying things about Brown's Wife...not necessarily his lisp. It was much deeper than that. That's how bad the org was in those days...nobody cared, it was starbucks and get a tan mentality...winning wasn't important. When Dean Lombardi came in, he had to completely retool everything and to do so was to squeeze every ounce of assets to rebuild the foundation of his development system. We weren't going to get much for Avery since his value was low...but we did get something....


Quote:
Avery was then traded for Cliche (who will be a group VI UFA this summer),
Knock on Cliche all you want, it's obvious you don't care to watch the prospects coming up through our system. I've been watching Cliche since his Lewiston Mainiacs days along with Jonathan Bernier. Cliche was the key piece in this Avery deal because Lombardi values leadership and hard work greatly, and he needed someone in the system to display those two critical things to other prospects. He's a captain for Manchester, and I believe he will have a shot at the 4th line next season.

Quote:
So basically you want to slam Taylor for bringing Avery in and hurting Brown's development but then want to credit Lombardi for reversing course by keeping Avery and harming Brown's development all in the name if some mythical asset management? LOL.
No, Lombardi had to use everything at his disposal to turn this ship around where it is today. He had to start building his development system, and to do that you have to trade away assets, which DL did right away. The fact Avery was untradeable during the DT era and then tradeable for assets when DL came in, should tell you something...

Then to top it off DL gets ripped by Brett Hull then Stars executive for trading Avery.

I'm slamming Taylor for taking credit of what DL did, which was develop these kids into what they are by using DL's system. Taylor picked these guys, yes but they were very much raw and lots to learn about winning and what it takes...Quick was sleeping in and missing practices, Brownie had to step up in the locker room. Kopi was also lazy, The system DL put in place makes the players work hard to be the players they are today, DL brought in smart hockey people and scouts...completely revamped everything from the bottom to the top.

The last few years training camp has been fun to watch, you see a lot of competition between the young guys and they are all jockeying for a shot to play in the NHL. That's a product of DL's system...

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05-30-2012, 10:26 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I don't know if Lombardi would have done anything differently with regards to Brown. Similar players in Simmonds and Clifford both made the jump to the NHL instead of playing in juniors, and Brown had done better than both of them in juniors.
Brown was brought into the NHL the same year he was drafted by DT, while both Simmonds and Clifford spent one more year in juniors after being drafted by DL.

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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
... Kopi was also lazy...
I agreed with all of your post pretty much except for this part. Kopitar needed some fine polishing, but he was not a lazy player. He's lazier now than he was back then if anything.

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05-30-2012, 12:28 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Brown was brought into the NHL the same year he was drafted by DT, while both Simmonds and Clifford spent one more year in juniors after being drafted by DL.
Brown was a late birthdate, and all 3 players played in the OHL for 3 seasons. Both Brown and Clifford were in the final year of the NHL or CHL dilemna when they made the jump. Simmonds, however, could have been sent to Manchester.

The point remains the same, though. Simmonds and Clifford are the closest comparisons to Brown under Lombardi's watch, all 3 played 3 OHL seasons, and Brown had done more than either of them in the OHL at that point.


Last edited by Sam: 05-30-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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05-30-2012, 12:47 PM
  #35
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While it's a fact that DT drafted Brown, Kopi & Quick, I agree with the crowd who says we should be directing our love towards DL (+ Hexy & Futa).

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05-30-2012, 01:26 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Brown was a late birthdate, and all 3 players played in the OHL for 3 seasons. Both Brown and Clifford were in the final year of the NHL or CHL dilemna when they made the jump. Simmonds, however, could have been sent to Manchester.

The point remains the same, though. Simmonds and Clifford are the closest comparisons to Brown under Lombardi's watch, all 3 played 3 OHL seasons, and Brown had done more than either of them in the OHL at that point.
To me it's irrelevant if Brown is a late birthdate or if they all played three seasons. Kids develop at a different rate. Brown was a 1st round pick -and the argument can be made that he fell since he was the 2nd rated NA skater by CSB- while Simmonds and Clifford were bypassed at 18. Yet Brown clearly wasn't ready for the NHL at 18, while Clifford and Simmonds were more than ready just one year after being drafted. The amount of development a player can make in one year is huge. DL recognized that, DT didn't.

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05-30-2012, 03:52 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
To me it's irrelevant if Brown is a late birthdate or if they all played three seasons. Kids develop at a different rate. Brown was a 1st round pick -and the argument can be made that he fell since he was the 2nd rated NA skater by CSB- while Simmonds and Clifford were bypassed at 18. Yet Brown clearly wasn't ready for the NHL at 18, while Clifford and Simmonds were more than ready just one year after being drafted. The amount of development a player can make in one year is huge. DL recognized that, DT didn't.
Simmonds had a better year than Brown did but I don't agree that Clifford played better (aside from staying healthy). Their PPG were similar, but Brown was crushing Norris winners that year. The big thing Clifford had over Brown was fighting, which isn't a big deal IMO.

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05-30-2012, 03:54 PM
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Simmonds had a better year than Brown did but I don't agree that Clifford played better (aside from staying healthy). Their PPG were similar, but Brown was crushing Norris winners that year. The big thing Clifford had over Brown was fighting, which isn't a big deal IMO.
Maybe I should have been more clear. Clifford, IMO, was more than ready for the role he was to provide. CLifford will likely never be a top six guy, Brown was drafted to be one. Brown was miscast in his first year in the league and it showed, Clifford was not.

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05-30-2012, 05:53 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
To me it's irrelevant if Brown is a late birthdate or if they all played three seasons. Kids develop at a different rate. Brown was a 1st round pick -and the argument can be made that he fell since he was the 2nd rated NA skater by CSB- while Simmonds and Clifford were bypassed at 18. Yet Brown clearly wasn't ready for the NHL at 18, while Clifford and Simmonds were more than ready just one year after being drafted. The amount of development a player can make in one year is huge. DL recognized that, DT didn't.
The best thing to happen in Brown's development was the lockout year when he got to play in Manchester for a season. He was a much better player once the nhl resumed.

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