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05-29-2012, 04:55 PM
  #576
Blueline Bomber
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I wouldn't count out Shero trading Staal for a 3rd line C. Obviously, a winger for Sid is a need, but Shero likes the 3 center model. The only reason he's moving away from the 3 center model by (possibly) trading Staal is because Staal would ask for too much money.

So trading Staal for a 3rd line C (one that could replace Staal defensively and contribute offensively as well) that's on a much cheaper contract plus some other good assets makes as much sense as trading Staal for a winger.

Just depends on whether Shero wants to keep what he's had or try something new.

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05-29-2012, 05:02 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
I think it would make sense for them, because they don't have anyone besides Getzlaf at the center position, and he just had an off year. they also have a few good wing prospects like Palmieri, one of which should be ready to fill in. However, their fan base just wants to give up a prospect for Staal.
I get their reluctance to move Ryan for Staal+. If Ryan plays on their top line, they have no 2nd line. If he plays on the 2nd line he doesn't really have a C (Koivu is starting to decline as a #2c). The idea of the Ducks getting a good young 2nd line center would be to play with Ryan.

Additionally I could see them being hesitant to acquire another top caliber player who's UFA next summer while Perry and Getz haven't yet been signed (assuming they can get Staal without giving up Ryan). Even if they think/know they can sign Staal, until those other two are signed or at least know the dollars it'll take to sign them, I don't see it happening until they're signed.

Although if they know they can't sign one/both of them, then I would do the deal if only to ship out the other asap so they can get the best possible return for him.

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05-29-2012, 05:03 PM
  #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I wouldn't count out Shero trading Staal for a 3rd line C. Obviously, a winger for Sid is a need, but Shero likes the 3 center model. The only reason he's moving away from the 3 center model by (possibly) trading Staal is because Staal would ask for too much money.

So trading Staal for a 3rd line C (one that could replace Staal defensively and contribute offensively as well) that's on a much cheaper contract plus some other good assets makes as much sense as trading Staal for a winger.

Just depends on whether Shero wants to keep what he's had or try something new.
That is a valid point, but I think a defensive 3C would be easier to get via FA or at the trade deadline. Staal has the value or close to it, to land a legit top 6 wing. We can get the 3C later if one of our depth guys like Jeffrey don't work.

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05-29-2012, 05:04 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
The only reason he's moving away from the 3 center model by (possibly) trading Staal is because Staal would ask for too much money.
Or it could be because he respects Staals wish to have a larger role somewhere else.

Or it could be because the 3 Center model hasn't born fruit in a few years.

Or it could be because he wants to deal from a position of depth to help a position of weakness.

Or...

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05-29-2012, 05:29 PM
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I wouldn't count out Shero trading Staal for a 3rd line C. Obviously, a winger for Sid is a need, but Shero likes the 3 center model. The only reason he's moving away from the 3 center model by (possibly) trading Staal is because Staal would ask for too much money.

So trading Staal for a 3rd line C (one that could replace Staal defensively and contribute offensively as well) that's on a much cheaper contract plus some other good assets makes as much sense as trading Staal for a winger.

Just depends on whether Shero wants to keep what he's had or try something new.
I cannot think of a single third line center in the league good enough to be the main piece in a Staal deal. As in a real 3C, who plays as 3C- doubting we'll get Skinner, Couture or Seguin. Sutter by virtue of age and cap hit comes closest.
So, I still would not mind a 3C thrown in as an afterthought, if it ends up being a package deal, someone like Bozak, or a C prospect, someone like Lander. The viability of the 3C model as it is now though pretty much stands and falls with Staal. No Staal, no real 3C model as we know it now.

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05-29-2012, 05:42 PM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I get their reluctance to move Ryan for Staal+. If Ryan plays on their top line, they have no 2nd line. If he plays on the 2nd line he doesn't really have a C (Koivu is starting to decline as a #2c). The idea of the Ducks getting a good young 2nd line center would be to play with Ryan.

Additionally I could see them being hesitant to acquire another top caliber player who's UFA next summer while Perry and Getz haven't yet been signed (assuming they can get Staal without giving up Ryan). Even if they think/know they can sign Staal, until those other two are signed or at least know the dollars it'll take to sign them, I don't see it happening until they're signed.

Although if they know they can't sign one/both of them, then I would do the deal if only to ship out the other asap so they can get the best possible return for him.
If they feel they can't keep Getz, Perry, and Staal. How about something around Staal and Perry? That would play to their organizations depth chart. Staal and Getz would be a good 1-2 down the middle, and they have quality prospects at wing but not center.

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05-29-2012, 05:44 PM
  #582
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First of all, I apologize if this has already been asked in this thread. I have a question for all of you that have been debating this potential move for the last 5 threads:

Has it truly been speculated that Staal ultimately wants to end up playing with one of his brothers? If so, can you explain why a team like Chicago would give up Sharp or the Ducks would give up Ryan for him?

Either of those moves makes a ton of sense for Pittsburgh, but ultimately Staal can choose his own destiny by walking as a UFA next summer. Obviously the other teams would only make the deal with confirmation of a contract extension - and I suppose Staal could decide to take the expanded role immediately without having to deal with UFA.

Clearly I am not Jordan Staal so for all I know playing with his brothers is a “nice to have” or not even a consideration at all compared to money and role. But if that is truly a top consideration for him, wouldn’t the most likely scenario be him playing out the year for the Penguins? Again I would guess that the Pens would rather have him for a playoff run than deal him for a “deadline rental” return.

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05-29-2012, 06:07 PM
  #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
First of all, I apologize if this has already been asked in this thread. I have a question for all of you that have been debating this potential move for the last 5 threads:

Has it truly been speculated that Staal ultimately wants to end up playing with one of his brothers? If so, can you explain why a team like Chicago would give up Sharp or the Ducks would give up Ryan for him?

Either of those moves makes a ton of sense for Pittsburgh, but ultimately Staal can choose his own destiny by walking as a UFA next summer. Obviously the other teams would only make the deal with confirmation of a contract extension - and I suppose Staal could decide to take the expanded role immediately without having to deal with UFA.

Clearly I am not Jordan Staal so for all I know playing with his brothers is a “nice to have” or not even a consideration at all compared to money and role. But if that is truly a top consideration for him, wouldn’t the most likely scenario be him playing out the year for the Penguins? Again I would guess that the Pens would rather have him for a playoff run than deal him for a “deadline rental” return.
Staal has said nothing about leaving Pittsburgh or wanting to play with his brothers.

As a Pens fan, I know Staal can step in on a playoff team as a #2C and be paid accordingly. With the injuries to our star players the last two seasons, Staal saw what he can do with an increased role and even mentioned in his exit interview how much fun it was to be relied upon for scoring while Sid was out.

Most likely, Staal stays this year. I'd be pissed if we lost him for nothing, but we'll see. But everyone spewing this nonsense about how he wouldn't get a premium return, just want to get a legit #2C on the cheap. Just like with the Burns deal, the team trading for him will have an extension in the works. Shero will not trade him for anything less than a Richards return. He views him that highly.

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05-29-2012, 06:55 PM
  #584
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What does the Burns deal have to do with the Richards trade?

Also, for the people speculating about Perry for Staal, there's a very good chance that we've signed someone or traded for a center by the time it even comes up.

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05-29-2012, 06:59 PM
  #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
What does the Burns deal have to do with the Richards trade?

Also, for the people speculating about Perry for Staal, there's a very good chance that we've signed someone or traded for a center by the time it even comes up.
If I was you, I would hope it is via trade. You definitely won't find a 2C in the FA market that's worth anything.

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05-29-2012, 07:04 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
If I was you, I would hope it is via trade. You definitely won't find a 2C in the FA market that's worth anything.
I'd have no problem signing Jokinen for a year or two to play with the Finns. It's not like we need him to be a long term solution. He could easily be forced to wing by camp for all I know.

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05-29-2012, 07:11 PM
  #587
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To your first point, value comes down what the player might do in the future since it's a young guy. The thinking being there is room to grow. Well Bolland is 25 and has far fewer games in the NHL than Staal. Thus it's not unreasonable to expect that a guy with a scoring history can increase his production with a more offensive role.
He must have more upside, then.

How about that ol' point you neglected to include about the Hawks preferring to convert wingers rather than use him in a 2C role? The man's own team - that's desperate for a 2nd line center - doesn't even consider him an option.

Quote:
No, that's not the point. You've simply spit out a facile analogy which is not at all relevant. Two different situations, and we both know it. Schremp in the NHL = bust. Not so with Bolland. This is ultra-weak even for you far-fetched points.
It's completely relevant - junior stats from a half-decade ago don't mean anything. Bolland was a more productive junior player than Eric Staal, too. Maybe you guys can work out a trade.

I won't even acknowledge "junior stats" as an argument moving forward, so you may as well save some keystrokes. It's absurd.


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05-29-2012, 07:15 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
I'd have no problem signing Jokinen for a year or two to play with the Finns. It's not like we need him to be a long term solution. He could easily be forced to wing by camp for all I know.
like I said.....you won't find anything in free agency that puts you in a better position than what you already have.
I hope you do sign Jokinen though, him and Bruce ought to get along really well.

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05-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #589
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
like I said.....you won't find anything in free agency that puts you in a better position than what you already have.
I hope you do sign Jokinen though, him and Bruce ought to get along really well.
He doesn't have to play center to put us in a better position.

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05-29-2012, 07:21 PM
  #590
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Ian Laperriere, Darcy Tucker, Chad Larose (sound familiar?). Go look up their junior stats. Hardly an accurate way of projecting a player's potential.

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05-29-2012, 07:26 PM
  #591
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Has it truly been speculated that Staal ultimately wants to end up playing with one of his brothers?
He was asked by a reporter (and I don't have the exact wording here, but it was along these lines) "if he would like to play with his brother(s)". His response was sure/yes he'd like that.

That, with Shero's comments about A) wanting to extend Staal, and B) how he'd have to look at the 3C model, and C) speculation about Staal's new deal and him wanting a bigger role has prompted these 5 threads.

However if you just look at the question/response of whether he wants to play with his brother... he has to say "yes, he'd like that" - even if he was lying. If he says no, then there's all sorts of **** in the papers and would cause the family (even just internally) a ton of drama. The only response to this question is "yes, I'd love to play with them".

Whether that actually happens or not is an entirely different matter. He can easily sign elsewhere and give some generic comment about how it was too good an opportunity to pass up, etc, and there's always some chance of them playing together in the future, bla bla bla...

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05-29-2012, 07:26 PM
  #592
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Ian Laperriere, Darcy Tucker, Chad Larose (sound familiar?). Go look up their junior stats. Hardly an accurate way of projecting a player's potential.
Fun Fact: Jordan Staal produced 9 points in 6 playoff games, and that means he can produce 60 points from the 3rd line. Chad LaRose once scored 10 points in 6 games. Therefore, he can produce 60+ points.


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05-29-2012, 07:33 PM
  #593
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Originally Posted by Superunknown94 View Post
Ian Laperriere, Darcy Tucker, Chad Larose (sound familiar?). Go look up their junior stats. Hardly an accurate way of projecting a player's potential.
Had no idea Larose was such a beast in Junior.

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05-29-2012, 07:33 PM
  #594
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Fun Fact: Jordan Staal produced 9 points in 6 playoff games, and that means he can produce 60 points from the 3rd line. Chad LaRose once scored 10 points in 6 games. Therefore, he can produce 60+ points.

Brilliant.

Staal regularly produced 49 points from the 3rd line as a 20-21 year old, has produced at a 64 point pace over the last 2 years with primarily 3rd line calibre wingers, and recently scored 9 points in 6 playoff games in a 3rd line role.

That's why it's reasonable to assume he could put up 60 points on the 3rd line.

An 11 point improvement from ages 21 to 24 is pretty much impossible though, I know.

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05-29-2012, 07:36 PM
  #595
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You're just far too easy to bait, you know that? Even when adding , you get hyper over any comment suggesting Staal might produce less than you hope.

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05-29-2012, 07:42 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
You're just far too easy to bait, you know that? Even when adding , you get hyper over any comment suggesting Staal might produce less than you hope.
There's too much idiocy in this thread to differentiate. We have people bringing up junior stats from 5 years ago as an argument.

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05-29-2012, 07:49 PM
  #597
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I want Staal, what do you want from TO?

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05-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  #598
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I am curious though. If you expect Staal to hit 60 points on the 3rd line, how much are you expecting for Crosby and Malkin on the first two lines?

I mean, scoring has been steadily decreasing league-wide for a while now. Last year, 58 players hit 60 points or more and I don't think any of them got as little prime PP time as Staal's going to get with Crosby/Malkin healthy.

So how many goals do you think the Penguins, as a team, will score next year? How many points will Crosby/Malkin have if Staal's scoring 60 from the 3rd line?

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05-29-2012, 08:07 PM
  #599
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I am curious though. If you expect Staal to hit 60 points on the 3rd line, how much are you expecting for Crosby and Malkin on the first two lines?

I mean, scoring has been steadily decreasing league-wide for a while now. Last year, 58 players hit 60 points or more and I don't think any of them got as little prime PP time as Staal's going to get with Crosby/Malkin healthy.

So how many goals do you think the Penguins, as a team, will score next year? How many points will Crosby/Malkin have if Staal's scoring 60 from the 3rd line?
Conservatively, both should crack 100.

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05-29-2012, 08:34 PM
  #600
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Conservatively, both should crack 100.
I agree. The problem I'm seeing is that if both hit 100, I can't see a lot of room for Staal to hit 60.

If the Penguins score more than the highest goalscoring team since 05-06 (Washington in 09-10 scored 313), then Staal could hit 60. 60 points is about 19% of the team's total goals scored (assuming they hit 313), and he put up an equivalent amount back in 09-10, when he last played that 3rd line role. Not impossible, but a stretch.

I think with the way goal-scoring as been league-wide though, and the division Pittsburgh plays in (since facing Lundqvist, Brodeur, etc. would definitely have an effect on a team's total goals. It probably had an effect on Washington's 313), 313 would be a little much. I could see anywhere from 250 to 290 for Pittsburgh next year.

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