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Snider Talks about Bryzgalov; Paul Holmgren “has to focus on the defense first.”

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Old
05-29-2012, 06:56 PM
  #26
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this has all the hallmarks of being one massive implosion bomb waiting to happen..

i predict Bryz will be more of the same ol same ol next season, and so on going forward.

just dont think he is mentaly tuff enuf for this market.

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05-29-2012, 07:01 PM
  #27
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We already got a lemon drop with Bryz but Weber would be sweet although pricey as hell like Pronger but worse...

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05-29-2012, 07:14 PM
  #28
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Well...let's see what it took to get Pronger...

Young, underachieving forward and former 1st round pick with a pricey contract.
Young defenseman playing at the NHL level as a 1st round pick.
2 first round picks in successive years.

Lupul + Sbisa + late 1st + 1st
vanRiemsdyk + Gustafsson + late 1st + 1st

vanRiemsdyk > Lupul
Gustafsson < Sbisa
late 1st + 1st = late 1st + 1st

Worth it to get Weber?

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05-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well...let's see what it took to get Pronger...

Young, underachieving forward and former 1st round pick with a pricey contract.
Young defenseman playing at the NHL level as a 1st round pick.
2 first round picks in successive years.

Lupul + Sbisa + late 1st + 1st
vanRiemsdyk + Gustafsson + late 1st + 1st

vanRiemsdyk > Lupul
Gustafsson < Sbisa
late 1st + 1st = late 1st + 1st

Worth it to get Weber?
Pronger was what, 34 when we traded for him? It'll cost even more.

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05-29-2012, 07:22 PM
  #30
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Nashville isnt going to want Gustaffson. Maybe Bourdon. .but its going to cost more than that proposal with JVR.

Btw..that was odd of Snider to refer to carter and Richards as nice guys. . Lol. Sounds like a grandpa or something. Those nice young boys/whippersnappers.

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05-29-2012, 07:23 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Go For It View Post
Pronger was what, 34 when we traded for him? It'll cost even more.
I don't know. I don't consider JVR a salary dump. Lupul was, which is why many felt we had to pay the extra 1st rounder; i.e. we paid Sbisa + 1st to get Pronger and a 1st to have them take Lupul.

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05-29-2012, 07:23 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Fish Invictus View Post
It's not the fans' fault he played like garbage for 2-3 months straight.
No, but in all my years of watching hockey I have never seen a bunch like this band wagon jump like these do. There is a certain element here that just relish's the fact that they can do better. If not tend the net then it's the GM who sucks. But for the most part the haters have been somewhat quiet do to the fact the team's future look's very bright with all the young talent here. But they just lurk in the weeds waiting to ***** at a moments notice. It cracks me up cause you should enjoy things not complain like a bunch of old hens all day long. But that is their right to do so. That is why we have this forum. One thing about the Flyers organization. You just know they will not stand pat. They always will try to put a winning team on the ice and that is not a bad thing. These next five weeks or so should be entertaining and hopefully they make the right moves.

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05-29-2012, 07:24 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Suter said he'll "entertain" offers from Nashville. I think it's pretty black and white at this point. Suter is either getting the house or making it to market with the latter being the more likely scenario.

With Suter on the way out, Weber is 100% off the table. That's the end of that discussion unless you're throwing Giroux at Nashville.

If we want a big time #1 it's Suter or bust. If Suter comes with Parise, he's not coming to Philadelphia unless JVR's or Briere's contract and possibly another are on the way out.
IIRC Weber said he'd like to "play with Suter, wherever that may be"..

If one goes, the other follows.

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05-29-2012, 07:26 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
IIRC Weber said he'd like to "play with Suter, wherever that may be"..

If one goes, the other follows.
I thought that was Parise...

Nobody can sign Suter, Weber, AND Parise this offseason; though I wouldn't count out Holmgren/Snider to try.

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05-29-2012, 07:27 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I don't know. I don't consider JVR a salary dump. Lupul was, which is why many felt we had to pay the extra 1st rounder; i.e. we paid Sbisa + 1st to get Pronger and a 1st to have them take Lupul.
Lupul was an injury-plagued but massively talented young winger who had performed inconsistently through his two seasons with the Flyers. If you look at his numbers at that point in his career, though, he had pretty easily out-performed JVR.

Honestly, until JVR proves he can be effective consistently in a top-6 role, I don't think its reasonable to assume he has a whole lot more value than Lupul did in 08-09.


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05-29-2012, 07:28 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I thought that was Parise...

Nobody can sign Suter, Weber, AND Parise this offseason; though I wouldn't count out Holmgren/Snider to try.
Technically, Detroit can with room to spare--if Lidstrom retires and they let Stuart walk.

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05-29-2012, 07:28 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I thought that was Parise...

Nobody can sign Suter, Weber, AND Parise this offseason; though I wouldn't count out Holmgren/Snider to try.
Not gonna lie, I have a mancrush on parise. I'd love for him to play with roo.

BUT, I am very sure i'm not thinking about parise (for this quote at least)

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05-29-2012, 07:29 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Well...let's see what it took to get Pronger...

Young, underachieving forward and former 1st round pick with a pricey contract.
Young defenseman playing at the NHL level as a 1st round pick.
2 first round picks in successive years.

Lupul + Sbisa + late 1st + 1st
vanRiemsdyk + Gustafsson + late 1st + 1st

vanRiemsdyk > Lupul
Gustafsson < Sbisa
late 1st + 1st = late 1st + 1st

Worth it to get Weber?
For starters, how is JVR > Lupul?

Also, Nashville won't likely want a defensive prospect coming back (we don't have any that are better than Ellis, Josi, Blum, etc.). Add either a current top-4 defenseman or another young forward--

I think:

JVR / Voracek
Schenn / Meszaros
1st
1st

Is probably what it would cost.


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05-29-2012, 07:30 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
No, but in all my years of watching hockey I have never seen a bunch like this band wagon jump like these do. There is a certain element here that just relish's the fact that they can do better. If not tend the net then it's the GM who sucks. But for the most part the haters have been somewhat quiet do to the fact the team's future look's very bright with all the young talent here. But they just lurk in the weeds waiting to ***** at a moments notice. It cracks me up cause you should enjoy things not complain like a bunch of old hens all day long. But that is their right to do so. That is why we have this forum. One thing about the Flyers organization. You just know they will not stand pat. They always will try to put a winning team on the ice and that is not a bad thing. These next five weeks or so should be entertaining and hopefully they make the right moves.
i agree. and snider didn't blame the fans, he basically said were slightly impatient when it comes to the mess "they" made in goal. which they did and I'm glad he realizes and admits it. I do think you can see the difference between the fans who just watch on tv and the fans who have actually played ice hockey and appreciate the insane level these guys are at skill wise. I've only been on here 2 years but i'm learning quick to weed out the nonsense. The one thing about most of us though is we just want to win. I actually read posts from other teams and there's some real lame attitudes goin on out there when it comes to expectations so we are up there when it comes to that.

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05-29-2012, 07:33 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
How is JVR > Lupol?
More potential, better player to this point in their careers, was younger than when we moved Lupul (IIRC), and we needed to move Lupul to get Pronger on the books which is not the same for Weber (we don't have to move JVR/force JVR onto the Preds).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
For starters, how is JVR > Lupol?

Also, Nashville won't likely want a defensive prospect coming back (we don't have any that are better than Ellis, Josi, Blum, etc.). Add either a current top-4 defenseman or another young forward--

I think:

JVR / Voracek
Schenn / Meszaros
1st
1st

Is probably what it would cost.
I don't think the Flyers would move both Schenn and JVR, but I could very easily see it being:

JVR/Meszaros/1st/1st
Schenn/Meszaros/1st/1st



EDIT: Note that I don't think Holmgren or Snider is desperate enough to do this unless it is clearly laid out that Suter will not come to Philadelphia.

Also, would you offer sheet Weber and give Nashville 4 1st rounders if we use this year's 1st on a defenseman?

I consider that a far better option than trading JVR/Schenn/Voracek.


EDIT 2:

Let's say we draft (Koekkoek), since that seems to be a running favorite. Then we offersheet Weber at 8.00m/year in the offseason. We give up four 1st rounders, but this is our team.

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
vanRiemsdyk - Schenn - Read
Simmonds - Couturier - Voracek
Rinaldo - Talbot - Wellwood

Timonen - Weber
Coburn - Grossmann
Meszaros - Bourdon/Gustafsson

Bryzgalov
Bobrovsky

PROSPECTS: (Koekkoek), Akeson, Manning, Cousins, Hovinen, etc.

(If salary cap not compliant, which I don't think it is, Meszaros or a forward could possibly be moved.)


Last edited by CS: 05-29-2012 at 07:44 PM.
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05-29-2012, 07:39 PM
  #41
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Bryz is a kid?
Compared to snipers age he is

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05-29-2012, 07:42 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
More potential, better player to this point in their careers, was younger than when we moved Lupul (IIRC), and we needed to move Lupul to get Pronger on the books which is not the same for Weber (we don't have to move JVR/force JVR onto the Preds).



I don't think the Flyers would move both Schenn and JVR, but I could very easily see it being:

JVR/Meszaros/1st/1st
Schenn/Meszaros/1st/1st



EDIT: Note that I don't think Holmgren or Snider is desperate enough to do this unless it is clearly laid out that Suter will not come to Philadelphia.

Also, would you offer sheet Weber and give Nashville 4 1st rounders if we use this year's 1st on a defenseman?

I consider that a far better option than trading JVR/Schenn/Voracek.


EDIT 2:

Let's say we draft (Koekkoek), since that seems to be a running favorite. Then we offersheet Weber at 8.00m/year in the offseason. We give up four 1st rounders, but this is our team.

Hartnell - Giroux - Briere
vanRiemsdyk - Schenn - Read
Simmonds - Couturier - Voracek
Rinaldo - Talbot - Wellwood

Timonen - Suter
Coburn - Grossmann
Meszaros - Bourdon/Gustafsson

Bryzgalov
Bobrovsky

PROSPECTS: (Koekkoek), Akeson, Manning, Cousins, Hovinen, etc.

(If salary cap not compliant, which I don't think it is, Meszaros or a forward could possibly be moved.)
I WOULD IN A HEARTBEAT if we can keep it under 8mil


edit: you forgot someone didn't you


Timonen-Suter
Coburn-Weber
Grossman-Meszaros

Then when kimmo comes off the books we are set!

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05-29-2012, 07:44 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
I WOULD IN A HEARTBEAT if we can keep it under 8mil
Well, the thing is, we need to get it to a point where Nashville won't/can't match.

Four first rounders with the team we've assembled is a small price to pay, particularly when we can ship guys out for high picks in return such as Meszaros, Voracek, JVR, etc should we push the upper limit too much.


Quote:
edit: you forgot someone didn't you


Timonen-Suter
Coburn-Weber
Grossman-Meszaros
I meant Weber, not Suter sorry. If we offersheet Weber, we won't be able to afford Suter as well without shipping out Briere or Timonen.

So...

Timonen - Weber
Coburn - Grossmann
Meszaros - Bourdon/Gustafsson

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05-29-2012, 07:44 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
More potential, better player to this point in their careers, was younger than when we moved Lupul (IIRC), and we needed to move Lupul to get Pronger on the books which is not the same for Weber (we don't have to move JVR/force JVR onto the Preds).
Lupul had a similar pedigree, and was far more accomplished at that point in his career. He was two years older, though.

Van Riemsdyk (23 years old at the time (present):

Regular Season Playoffs
GP G A P PIM +/- GP G A P PIM
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 78 15 20 35 30 -1 21 3 3 6 4
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 75 21 19 40 35 15 11 7 0 7 4
2011-12 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 43 11 13 24 24 -1 7 1 1 2 4

NHL Totals 196 47 52 99 89 39 11 4 15 12

Lupul (25 years old)

2003-04 Anaheim Ducks NHL 75 13 21 34 28 -6 -- -- -- -- --
2005-06 Anaheim Ducks NHL 81 28 25 53 48 -13 16 9 2 11 31
2006-07 Edmonton Oilers NHL 81 16 12 28 45 -29 -- -- -- -- --
2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 56 20 26 46 35 2 17 4 6 10 2
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyer NHL 79 25 25 50 58 1 6 1 1 2 2

NHL Totals 372 102 109 211 - - 39 14 9 23 -

EDIT: Can't format it.


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05-29-2012, 07:46 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Lupol had a similar pedigree, and was far more accomplished at that point in his career. He was two years older, though.

Van Riemsdyk (23 years old at the time (present):

Regular Season Playoffs
GP G A P PIM +/- GP G A P PIM
2009-10 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 78 15 20 35 30 -1 21 3 3 6 4
2010-11 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 75 21 19 40 35 15 11 7 0 7 4
2011-12 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 43 11 13 24 24 -1 7 1 1 2 4

NHL Totals 196 47 52 99 89 39 11 4 15 12

Lupol (25 years old)

2003-04 Anaheim Ducks NHL 75 13 21 34 28 -6 -- -- -- -- --
2005-06 Anaheim Ducks NHL 81 28 25 53 48 -13 16 9 2 11 31
2006-07 Edmonton Oilers NHL 81 16 12 28 45 -29 -- -- -- -- --
2007-08 Philadelphia Flyers NHL 56 20 26 46 35 2 17 4 6 10 2
2008-09 Philadelphia Flyer NHL 79 25 25 50 58 1 6 1 1 2 2

NHL Totals 372 102 109 211 - - 39 14 9 23 -

EDIT: Can't format it.
but lupul never showed us beast mode for 10 games straight.


(thats what we call "potential"

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05-29-2012, 07:46 PM
  #46
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Well, the thing is, we need to get it to a point where Nashville won't/can't match.

Four first rounders with the team we've assembled is a small price to pay, particularly when we can ship guys out for high picks in return such as Meszaros, Voracek, JVR, etc should we push the upper limit too much.

I meant Weber, not Suter sorry. If we offersheet Weber, we won't be able to afford Suter as well without shipping out Briere or Timonen.
Honestly, even if an OS gets to 8.5+, I'm not sure Nashville doesn't have to match it. They can always trade Weber after eating the cap hit for a year.

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05-29-2012, 07:49 PM
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but lupul never showed us beast mode for 10 games straight.


(thats what we call "potential"
Lupul had three 20 / 45+ point seasons.

That's what we call production.


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05-29-2012, 07:50 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Lupol had a similar pedigree, and was far more accomplished at that point in his career. He was two years older, though.

Van Riemsdyk (23 years old at the time (present):

Lupol (25 years old)
JVR has more potential, and I think is a better player than Lupul had shown in Philadelphia outside of one partial season before Hatcher killed him. He is also two years younger, and offers a skillset that Lupul just did not and does not possess.

Yes, Lupul had accomplished more by 25 than JVR has by 23, but Lupul's time outside of that brief Hatcher-demolished season was largely pathetic and invisible. Not saying JVR hasn't been invisible, but there are flashes from a much earlier age.

On top of that, there is the contract issue involved in their trade value; both Lupul's then and JVR's now. Though they have/had similar contracts, the Flyers are in a better position not to ship salary out than they were when they acquired Pronger. It was largely believed that Lupul was a salary dump. JVR would not be a salary, but instead a major part if not THE vital part in this deal.

So yes, JVR > Lupul. If you disagree, then you disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Lupol had three 20 / 45+ point seasons.

That's what we call production.
If you're not going to take rational discussion seriously, then I have no reason to have it with you. Point is that despite similar contracts and despite both being struggling forwards coming off injuries, their value is not equal by market standards.

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05-29-2012, 07:50 PM
  #49
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Honestly, even if an OS gets to 8.5+, I'm not sure Nashville doesn't have to match it. They can always trade Weber after eating the cap hit for a year.
I agree, if I was in their boat i'd match anything (if the organization can afford the actual salary). But from our end, whats the downside of throwing an offer out there?

If Weber refuses to sign for another year, he'll be an UFA
(by refuse to sign I mean pulls a parise)

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05-29-2012, 07:51 PM
  #50
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Pronger was what, 34 when we traded for him? It'll cost even more.
It might cost the same. It's widely known that Paul Holmgren bid against himself to get Pronger.

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