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Snider Talks about Bryzgalov; Paul Holmgren “has to focus on the defense first.”

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05-29-2012, 07:54 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Honestly, even if an OS gets to 8.5+, I'm not sure Nashville doesn't have to match it. They can always trade Weber after eating the cap hit for a year.
They'd eat the 8.5m for one year and then trade what? His rights?

Or would they try to move him at the deadline?

I doubt they'd be able to get more than the value of four 1st rounders from a team.


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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It might cost the same. It's widely known that Paul Holmgren bid against himself to get Pronger.
Which is another reason I approach any trade for Weber with apprehension.

An offersheet seems much better.

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05-29-2012, 07:54 PM
  #52
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This screams two things to me. I think they really feel that Pronger is done and he'll be on LTIR for a long time. It also seems that they're going to approach Suter with a "blank check" approach.

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05-29-2012, 07:57 PM
  #53
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jeh82...it's Lupul dude, come on. Get the kid's name right at least lol.

My list of untouchables for Weber is Claude Giroux, it begins and ends there. If we can get him, I'd trade any forward with any prospect. It would hurt to ship out Cooter, so he'd be my most reluctant move. Schenn is a step under him right now to me, Read's age puts him under Schenn with his productivity, and JVR's value is probably somewhere above Read's but below Schenn's. Voracek would probably be around JVR's I'd think, Simmer around Read. Everyone else is old or I forgot about them lol.

If they want a dman, they're welcome to anyone, but I'd like to see Kimmo stay.


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05-29-2012, 07:58 PM
  #54
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If Snider wants a team that focuses on defense, he knows what he needs to do.

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05-29-2012, 08:01 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post


If you're not going to take rational discussion seriously, then I have no reason to have it with you. Point is that despite similar contracts and despite both being struggling forwards coming off injuries, their value is not equal by market standards.
You're being a bit sensitive.

Of course Lupul didn't produce at the same rate at the same age in Philly--he didn't play here at the same age. His 22 year-old season in Anaheim (28 goals, 25 assists, 53 points) was better than anything JVR has done here, so to suggest that age alone explains the production gap seems a bit suspect.

Regardless, I think a reasonable argument can be made that they have approximately similar values--JVR perhaps has more potential, Lupul had a superior track record. The key point, I guess, is that Sbisa was a far better prospect than Gus is now, and Weber will probably cost more than Pronger did then.

Trust me, if we can persuade Nashville to take JVR, Gustaffson, and a pair of late 1sts for Weber, I'd be thrilled. I just don't see it happening.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyOnTheSpot View Post
jeh82...it's Lupul dude, come on. Get the kid's name right at least lol.


Oops.

At least I was consistent in misspelling the guy's name? I have some posts to edit...

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05-29-2012, 08:01 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
If Snider wants a team that focuses on defense, he knows what he needs to do.
Do exactly what worked in 2010...create a deep forward core for Laviolette to work with along with two legit #1 defensemen?

Your anti-Lavi shtick is getting old.

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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Trust me, if we can persuade Nashville to take JVR, Gustaffson, and a pair of late 1sts for Weber, I'd be thrilled. I just don't see it happening.
The biggest problem is that Weber is not 34. He's in his prime. The value for Weber now is greater than Pronger then.

That said, I offersheet the hell out of Weber when possible if Nashville both cannot sign him and refuses to play ball with us.

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05-29-2012, 08:02 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
They'd eat the 8.5m for one year and then trade what? His rights?

Or would they try to move him at the deadline?

I doubt they'd be able to get more than the value of four 1st rounders from a team.




Which is another reason I approach any trade for Weber with apprehension.

An offersheet seems much better.
Sorry, no. I was saying that even if Weber signed a (multi-year) offersheet @ 8.5, I think Nashville would match, knowing they could always trade him later.

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05-29-2012, 08:05 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Sorry, no. I was saying that even if Weber signed a (multi-year) offersheet @ 8.5, I think Nashville would match, knowing they could always trade him later.
If they match the 8.5m for 1 year, they have three options:

1. sign him to an extension
2. try to trade his rights if they know he will become a UFA
3. try to trade him for value at the deadline

None of those options seem appealing outside of #1, and I'm not so sure #1 can get done if Weber is planning the same course of action as Suter. Knowing that he could be a rental only, some teams may not pony up the trade deadline value for him; that of course is under the assumption that Nashville is out of the playoff hunt and has the luxury to move Weber.

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05-29-2012, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If they match the 8.5m for 1 year, they have three options:

1. sign him to an extension
2. try to trade his rights if they know he will become a UFA
3. try to trade him for value at the deadline

None of those options seem appealing outside of #1, and I'm not so sure #1 can get done if Weber is planning the same course of action as Suter.
Wait. You're suggesting the Flyers offer a 1 year OS @ 8.5?

I assumed you / others meant a long-term OS.

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05-29-2012, 08:07 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Wait. You're suggesting the Flyers offer a 1 year OS @ 8.5?

I assumed you / others meant a long-term OS.
I did, but I thought you suggested he'd be a UFA after one year. That's why I thought you were thinking a 1-year 8.5m offersheet.

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05-29-2012, 08:13 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I did, but I thought you suggested he'd be a UFA after one year. That's why I thought you were thinking a 1-year 8.5m offersheet.
Sorry--I could have been clearer.

Isn't there a rule in place that prohibits a club from trading a player signed through a matched OS for some length of time? I thought it was a year. Maybe it is less. That's what I was referring to, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: There is. A player cannot be traded for one calendar year after having an OS matched.

My argument--clearer in my head than on the screen--was that Nashville would almost have to match any OS, regardless of the cap hit / years, simply because four late-1sts is an awful return for Weber. If they end up burdened with a 9 x $8.5 contract or something similarly budget-busting, they always have the option of moving Weber at some point in the future, for a better return than four late-1sts.

Make sense?

The only OS they wouldn't match, in my view, would be something so insane it would kill any team's cap (e.g., an Ovechkin-like number) or a massive one-year OS (which is self-evidently dumb--why surrender four firsts without getting the player signed long-term).

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05-29-2012, 08:16 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Sorry--I could have been clearer.

Isn't there a rule in place that prohibits a club from trading a player signed through a matched OS for some length of time? I thought it was a year. Maybe it is less. That's what I was referring to, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: There is. A player cannot be traded for one calendar year after having an OS matched.
Crap, I forgot about that rule. Is it one calender year or through the regular season though?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
My argument--clearer in my head than on the screen--was that Nashville would almost have to match any OS, regardless of the cap hit / years, simply because four late-1sts is an awful return for Weber. If they end up burdened with a 9 x $8.5 contract or something similarly budget-busting, they always have the option of moving Weber at some point in the future, for a better return than four late-1sts.

Make sense?

The only OS they wouldn't match, in my view, would be something so insane it would kill any team's cap (e.g., an Ovechkin-like number) or a massive one-year OS (which is self-evidently dumb--why surrender four firsts without getting the player signed long-term).
Which is why they should play ball with trading partners if they can't sign Weber.

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05-29-2012, 08:17 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
It might cost the same. It's widely known that Paul Holmgren bid against himself to get Pronger.
So, to get Weber, Holmgren will have to match/surpass the price set for a franchise d-man that Holmgren set previously by outbidding Holmgren?

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05-29-2012, 08:20 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
Sorry--I could have been clearer.

Isn't there a rule in place that prohibits a club from trading a player signed through a matched OS for some length of time? I thought it was a year. Maybe it is less. That's what I was referring to, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: There is. A player cannot be traded for one calendar year after having an OS matched.

My argument--clearer in my head than on the screen--was that Nashville would almost have to match any OS, regardless of the cap hit / years, simply because four late-1sts is an awful return for Weber. If they end up burdened with a 9 x $8.5 contract or something similarly budget-busting, they always have the option of moving Weber at some point in the future, for a better return than four late-1sts.

Make sense?

The only OS they wouldn't match, in my view, would be something so insane it would kill any team's cap (e.g., an Ovechkin-like number) or a massive one-year OS (which is self-evidently dumb--why surrender four firsts without getting the player signed long-term).
Weber also has to sign the match...
If they matched a 10yr 8.5mil contract, he might not sign and wait for arbitration (or ask for a 1yr deal)

If the flyers offered a 1yr @ 8.5 they're boned. (either they sign and he leaves, or they take 4 1sts)

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05-29-2012, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by StevensCakeBakerBacker View Post
So, to get Weber, Holmgren will have to match/surpass the price set for a franchise d-man that Holmgren set previously by outbidding Holmgren?
I laughed out loud at that.

I think the bigger problem is that the Pronger trade sort of came out of nowhere, whereas Nashville will only move Weber if they can't get him resigned long-term--at which point, Poile might as well put a Shea Weber trading card up on ebay. That seems more likely to drive up the price.

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Originally Posted by tuckrr View Post
Weber also has to sign the match...
If they matched a 10yr 8.5mil contract, he might not sign and wait for arbitration (or ask for a 1yr deal)

If the flyers offered a 1yr @ 8.5 they're boned. (either they sign and he leaves, or they take 4 1sts)
I don't think it works that way.

Weber would have to sign the Flyers OS first. Then Nashville gets the chance to match. At that point, Weber has to accept the matched OS from Nashville. He can't opt-out or renegotiate.

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05-29-2012, 08:25 PM
  #66
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he cant elect for arbitration at that point?


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05-29-2012, 08:27 PM
  #67
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he cant elect for arbitration at that point?
No.

Basically, a player has to sign an OS to trigger the process. At that point, I believe, the NHL verifies that the acquiring club has the proper draft picks to make the offer. Assuming they do, his current team has (I think) seven days to match. At that point, he goes one of two ways--to the new club or the old.

Once he signs the paper, in other words, the process is out of his control.

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05-29-2012, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jeh82 View Post
No.

Basically, a player has to sign an OS to trigger the process. At that point, I believe, the NHL verifies that the acquiring club has the proper draft picks to make the offer. Assuming they do, his current team has (I think) seven days to match. At that point, he goes one of two ways--to the new club or the old.

Once he signs the paper, in other words, the process is out of his control.
Right, I just thought he could also elect for arbitration (my mistake) since, it would still be "out of his hands"

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05-29-2012, 08:51 PM
  #69
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If Snider wants a team that focuses on defense, he knows what he needs to do.
He didn't say that he wants a team focused on defense. He said he wants the General Manager to focus on upgrading the defense/replacing Pronger.

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05-29-2012, 09:08 PM
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He didn't say that he wants a team focused on defense. He said he wants the General Manager to focus on upgrading the defense/replacing Pronger.
Exactly, which is a no brainer. I hate when people read what they want (my feeling is that they did not read it at all.)

Difference between focusing on "THE" defense and focusing on defense.

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05-29-2012, 09:14 PM
  #71
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You get pronger because you know he is money in the playoffs. Weber is still unproven in that area and you guys want to ship jvr schenn and 2 1sts THEN pay him 8.5 a year? Sign suter nothing more

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05-29-2012, 09:29 PM
  #72
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It's the nature of sports, from hockey to the most random sports worldwide. You wont find fans cheering for a player who plays bad. Just not how it works.
You will sometimes, actually. A pitcher struggling to find the zone is more likely to get cheered than bood. Getting on Bryz last year seemed to become a trend for bandwagon fans as much as it was for his haters. That's why an NHL goalie and an NFL QB are the two toughest positions to play. Anywhere from 20-50 saves/passes per game, and one bad goal/interception and that player is the scapegoat.

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He latched everything to Pronger getting hurt and needing to replace him.
Most of us did too.

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05-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #73
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Before we come to some consensus about trading everyone but Laurent Hart to Nashville for Weber and signing Suter to 25 years @ $25 mil per, I'm pondering setting up a deal for Blum or Ellis if the Predators do sign Suter. Or try to pry Rundblad or Gormley from Phoenix. Go counter-intuitive and try to find the next emerging defensive star.

Then deal Carle to Edmonton / Calgary for their 2nd round pick.

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05-29-2012, 10:15 PM
  #74
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Before we come to some consensus about trading everyone but Laurent Hart to Nashville for Weber and signing Suter to 25 years @ $25 mil per, I'm pondering setting up a deal for Blum or Ellis if the Predators do sign Suter. Or try to pry Rundblad or Gormley from Phoenix. Go counter-intuitive and try to find the next emerging defensive star.

Then deal Carle to Edmonton / Calgary for their 2nd round pick.
Seems kind of silly to sign Carle just to trade him.

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05-29-2012, 10:17 PM
  #75
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Seems kind of silly to sign Carle just to trade him.
I think he means Carle's rights...which obviously aren't worth a 2nd. Maybe a 4th.

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