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Old
05-29-2012, 08:43 PM
  #601
Ragamuffin Gunner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I agree. The problem I'm seeing is that if both hit 100, I can't see a lot of room for Staal to hit 60.

If the Penguins score more than the highest goalscoring team since 05-06 (Washington in 09-10 scored 313), then Staal could hit 60. 60 points is about 19% of the team's total goals scored (assuming they hit 313), and he put up an equivalent amount back in 09-10, when he last played that 3rd line role. Not impossible, but a stretch.

I think with the way goal-scoring as been league-wide though, and the division Pittsburgh plays in (since facing Lundqvist, Brodeur, etc. would definitely have an effect on a team's total goals. It probably had an effect on Washington's 313), 313 would be a little much. I could see anywhere from 250 to 290 for Pittsburgh next year.
You do know that more than one player can get a point when a goal is scored, right?

You're making it sound like for the Sid and Geno to get 100 points and Staal to get 60 then 260 goals need to be scored, lol.

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05-29-2012, 08:45 PM
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I think with the way goal-scoring as been league-wide though, and the division Pittsburgh plays in (since facing Lundqvist, Brodeur, etc. would definitely have an effect on a team's total goals. It probably had an effect on Washington's 313), 313 would be a little much. I could see anywhere from 250 to 290 for Pittsburgh next year.
No offense to Brodeur who has had a fabulous career, but I don't think people are going to be too concerned about the impact he is going to have on teams goal totals next year.

The Pens had 273 goals last year with Sid missing the majority of the season, Tanger missing a good chunk of games, Staal missing 20 odd games, even Malkin missed 5 or 6. You'd expect that those guys, if they had been playing the whole season, would have seen the Pens scoring even more goals.

and of course, it's not like Sid and Geno can't score points at the same time, or Sid and Staal, or Staal and Malkin, or all three of them together.

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05-29-2012, 08:47 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
What does the Burns deal have to do with the Richards trade?
Burns getting a premium return despite only having one year left on his deal?

My point with what Shero will want back in return for Staal is something similar in value to Richards. He values him as a key piece of this team and will want a proper return. Otherwise he stays, and we resign him. Or he gets overpaid in free agency.

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05-29-2012, 08:56 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
You do know that more than one player can get a point when a goal is scored, right?

You're making it sound like for the Sid and Geno to get 100 points and Staal to get 60 then 260 goals need to be scored, lol.
Not at all. If they all got those points, only 100 goals needed to be scored. But then consider that, for most of the time, they all play on different lines. Crosby and Malkin may get some time together during the powerplay or even-strength, but Staal doesn't really get a lot of time with either of them in any situation (I could be mistaken, but just from my viewings, that seems to be the situation).

Then consider that there are going to be goals scored that none of the three factor into. Or only one. So yes, for Crosby and Malkin to get at least 100 and Staal to get at least 60, an above average amount of goals need to be scored.

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05-29-2012, 09:02 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Not at all. If they all got those points, only 100 goals needed to be scored. But then consider that, for most of the time, they all play on different lines. Crosby and Malkin may get some time together during the powerplay or even-strength, but Staal doesn't really get a lot of time with either of them in any situation (I could be mistaken, but just from my viewings, that seems to be the situation).

Then consider that there are going to be goals scored that none of the three factor into. Or only one. So yes, for Crosby and Malkin to get at least 100 and Staal to get at least 60, an above average amount of goals need to be scored.
Fortunate that they are the best offensive team in the NHL even with Sid only playing 20 odd games then eh?

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05-29-2012, 09:03 PM
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Not at all. If they all got those points, only 100 goals needed to be scored. But then consider that, for most of the time, they all play on different lines. Crosby and Malkin may get some time together during the powerplay or even-strength, but Staal doesn't really get a lot of time with either of them in any situation (I could be mistaken, but just from my viewings, that seems to be the situation).

Then consider that there are going to be goals scored that none of the three factor into. Or only one. So yes, for Crosby and Malkin to get at least 100 and Staal to get at least 60, an above average amount of goals need to be scored.
It's real simple man. Staal did not get an upgrade in wingers. Cooke/TK = Sully/Duper. The first pair are better on the cycle, the latter off the rush. He's evolved offensively.

As a Pens fan, I'd be disappointed if he didn't hit 60 pts in a healthy season next year. More if an injury to Sid/Geno occurs.

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05-29-2012, 09:05 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Staal has said nothing about leaving Pittsburgh or wanting to play with his brothers.

As a Pens fan, I know Staal can step in on a playoff team as a #2C and be paid accordingly. With the injuries to our star players the last two seasons, Staal saw what he can do with an increased role and even mentioned in his exit interview how much fun it was to be relied upon for scoring while Sid was out.

Most likely, Staal stays this year. I'd be pissed if we lost him for nothing, but we'll see. But everyone spewing this nonsense about how he wouldn't get a premium return, just want to get a legit #2C on the cheap. Just like with the Burns deal, the team trading for him will have an extension in the works. Shero will not trade him for anything less than a Richards return. He views him that highly.

So a third liner, top prospect and 2nd round pick gets Jordan Staal?

Sweet, sign me up; Matt D'Agostini, Jaden Schwartz and a 2nd for Jordan Staal.
Let's make some phone calls.

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05-29-2012, 09:08 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
So a third liner, top prospect and 2nd round pick gets Jordan Staal?

Sweet, sign me up; Matt D'Agostini, Jaden Schwartz and a 2nd for Jordan Staal.
Let's make some phone calls.
What happened about Jaden Schwartz not being available?

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05-29-2012, 09:11 PM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Burns getting a premium return despite only having one year left on his deal?

My point with what Shero will want back in return for Staal is something similar in value to Richards. He values him as a key piece of this team and will want a proper return. Otherwise he stays, and we resign him. Or he gets overpaid in free agency.
I wouldn't call what Burns got a premium. How much of Setoguchi did you see in the year he was traded?

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05-29-2012, 09:12 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
So a third liner, top prospect and 2nd round pick gets Jordan Staal?

Sweet, sign me up; Matt D'Agostini, Jaden Schwartz and a 2nd for Jordan Staal.
Let's make some phone calls.
Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds. The former being the best prospect in the world at the time and NHL ready, the latter a proven third line player with upside.

You ain't getting J. Staal without parting with one of Oshie/Tarasenko.

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05-29-2012, 09:14 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
I wouldn't call what Burns got a premium. How much of Setoguchi did you see in the year he was traded?
He's an inconsistent scoring winger. SJ could afford to deal him at the time, although I think they may be regretting it b/c now they lack speed in their top 6. Seto still had solid value.

I'd move Staal for Seto+Coyle. Especially with where Coyle is now in his development. And our need for RHS wingers. Coyle being able to play center and a big body is a bonus .

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05-29-2012, 09:19 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds. The former being the best prospect in the world at the time and NHL ready, the latter a proven third line player with upside.

You ain't getting J. Staal without parting with one of Oshie/Tarasenko.
Why is Richards a point of comparison here? He signed a team friendly deal to stay in Philly before they turned around and traded him. Is Staal blindly taking a discount with whatever team trades for him?

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05-29-2012, 09:20 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
He's an inconsistent scoring winger. SJ could afford to deal him at the time, although I think they may be regretting it b/c now they lack speed in their top 6. Seto still had solid value.

I'd move Staal for Seto+Coyle. Especially with where Coyle is now in his development. And our need for RHS wingers. Coyle being able to play center and a big body is a bonus .
Is coyle nhl ready?

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05-29-2012, 09:23 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Why is Richards a point of comparison here? He signed a team friendly deal to stay in Philly before they turned around and traded him. Is Staal blindly taking a discount with whatever team trades for him?
I don't see Staal being moved for anything less. You can feel free to disagree.

I can see Staal resigning with a playoff team for 6 mil longterm. Maybe a slight discount on that.

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05-29-2012, 09:34 PM
  #615
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I don't think Minnesota would be too inclined to part with their high - end prospects, Coyle in particular. Phillips might be a more likely option.

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05-29-2012, 09:35 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Brayden Schenn and Wayne Simmonds. The former being the best prospect in the world at the time and NHL ready, the latter a proven third line player with upside.

You ain't getting J. Staal without parting with one of Oshie/Tarasenko.
All you're trying to do here is shift the goalposts enough to continue your attempts to get a "premium return".

You brought up Richards; he didn't bring back a "premium return"(3rd liner, top prospect and 2nd liner is not a "premium return").

You brought up Boyle; he didn't bring back a premium return(2nd line winger, mid-level prospect and a very low 1st is not a premium return).

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you; but teams almost never get a "Premium return" when dealing a top-end player. Going all the way back to the Lindros trade; only Danny Heatley has brought back "premium returns" in a trade(first Hossa, then Heatley). Almost all of the "top players" dealt in recent memory get a collection of lesser pieces when they get moved. You're looking at getting maybe 1 top 2 line/pairing caliber player, and then some picks and mid-level prospects to even out the value. This notion that you're going to get a winger for Crosby plus a few picks/prospects is nothing but unrealistic crazy talk.

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05-29-2012, 09:44 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
All you're trying to do here is shift the goalposts enough to continue your attempts to get a "premium return".

You brought up Richards; he didn't bring back a "premium return"(3rd liner, top prospect and 2nd liner is not a "premium return").

You brought up Boyle; he didn't bring back a premium return(2nd line winger, mid-level prospect and a very low 1st is not a premium return).

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you; but teams almost never get a "Premium return" when dealing a top-end player. Going all the way back to the Lindros trade; only Danny Heatley has brought back "premium returns" in a trade(first Hossa, then Heatley). Almost all of the "top players" dealt in recent memory get a collection of lesser pieces when they get moved. You're looking at getting maybe 1 top 2 line/pairing caliber player, and then some picks and mid-level prospects to even out the value. This notion that you're going to get a winger for Crosby plus a few picks/prospects is nothing but unrealistic crazy talk.
you do understand the definition of "premium" correct? If "no one gets premium return" then the standard of what is considered "premium" is shifted downward accordingly. Richards got "premium return."

If getting the #1 spec in hockey and a 28 goal third liner isn't "premium" return then idk what is going on.

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05-29-2012, 09:48 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
All you're trying to do here is shift the goalposts enough to continue your attempts to get a "premium return".

You brought up Richards; he didn't bring back a "premium return"(3rd liner, top prospect and 2nd liner is not a "premium return").

You brought up Boyle; he didn't bring back a premium return(2nd line winger, mid-level prospect and a very low 1st is not a premium return).

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you; but teams almost never get a "Premium return" when dealing a top-end player. Going all the way back to the Lindros trade; only Danny Heatley has brought back "premium returns" in a trade(first Hossa, then Heatley). Almost all of the "top players" dealt in recent memory get a collection of lesser pieces when they get moved. You're looking at getting maybe 1 top 2 line/pairing caliber player, and then some picks and mid-level prospects to even out the value. This notion that you're going to get a winger for Crosby plus a few picks/prospects is nothing but unrealistic crazy talk.
Haha.

Brayden Schenn was "the" best prospect in the world. He's a hell of a return in addition to Simmonds.

Not sure wtf you're talking about with Boyle. If you mean Burns, he brought back quite a bit as well.

Again, you'll never get Staal without parting with something you don't want to. We're not forced to trade Staal. If we don't get back the return I'm speaking of, he stays.

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05-29-2012, 10:02 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
If getting the #1 spec in hockey and a 28 goal third liner isn't "premium" return then idk what is going on.
Simmonds didn't have anywhere close to 28 goals when he was traded.

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05-29-2012, 10:09 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Simmonds didn't have anywhere close to 28 goals when he was traded.
For the sake of argument. What mike richards brought back is a premium return IMO. I'd like a skilled RHS for the top 6 and another top prospect.

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05-29-2012, 10:11 PM
  #621
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For the sake of argument. What mike richards brought back is a premium return IMO. I'd like a skilled RHS for the top 6 and another top prospect.
Who, at the level Simmonds was, are you looking at, then?

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05-29-2012, 10:26 PM
  #622
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Who, at the level Simmonds was, are you looking at, then?
Seto, Kulemin, Stewart. They'd need to be paired with a significant asset like a top ten pick+ to match the value Schenn had in LA.

I agree a straight swap is unlikely.

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05-29-2012, 10:42 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Seto, Kulemin, Stewart. They'd need to be paired with a significant asset like a top ten pick+ to match the value Schenn had in LA.

I agree a straight swap is unlikely.
I was going to suggest a deal around Kulemin but was worried he wouldn't carry the amount of value he should coming off an off-season for him.

I would start with L. Schenn and Kulemin.

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05-29-2012, 10:42 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I agree. The problem I'm seeing is that if both hit 100, I can't see a lot of room for Staal to hit 60.

If the Penguins score more than the highest goalscoring team since 05-06 (Washington in 09-10 scored 313), then Staal could hit 60. 60 points is about 19% of the team's total goals scored (assuming they hit 313), and he put up an equivalent amount back in 09-10, when he last played that 3rd line role. Not impossible, but a stretch.

I think with the way goal-scoring as been league-wide though, and the division Pittsburgh plays in (since facing Lundqvist, Brodeur, etc. would definitely have an effect on a team's total goals. It probably had an effect on Washington's 313), 313 would be a little much. I could see anywhere from 250 to 290 for Pittsburgh next year.
It wouldn't need to be nearly that high. The Pens scored 260 goals in '08-'09, when both Sid and Geno scored 100+ points and Staal scored 49. All three have improved since then, and the Pens scored 273 last year without Crosby for most of the year, so the league-wide goal-scoring dip apparently hasn't affected them too adversely.

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05-29-2012, 10:51 PM
  #625
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I don't think Minnesota would be too inclined to part with their high - end prospects, Coyle in particular. Phillips might be a more likely option.
That'd be a non-starter. Phillips is skilled, but far from a sure thing.

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