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Old
05-29-2012, 11:17 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by Smif View Post
I was going to suggest a deal around Kulemin but was worried he wouldn't carry the amount of value he should coming off an off-season for him.

I would start with L. Schenn and Kulemin.
Most wouldn't consider a deal from Toronto unless their 1st was included. I believe they have the assets to make a trade without including their first, however most on here don't think as highly as I do about Schenn, Kulemin, Gunnarsson, Holzer, Ashton, etc.

I think you'd have to add something to Schenn and Kulemin. Or include your 1st and have the Pens send their's back (22), and perhaps a prospect. IDK.

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05-29-2012, 11:19 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
It wouldn't need to be nearly that high. The Pens scored 260 goals in '08-'09, when both Sid and Geno scored 100+ points and Staal scored 49. All three have improved since then, and the Pens scored 273 last year without Crosby for most of the year, so the league-wide goal-scoring dip apparently hasn't affected them too adversely.
The Penguins goal totals the last 4 years:

272
228
249
258

Like I said, they could score 313, but it's a stretch. If everyone stays healthy, they might reach it, but like I said, I feel the more likely range would be somewhere between 250 to 290. You may disagree, and that's fine. I'm just playing the law of averages.

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05-29-2012, 11:20 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
So a third liner, top prospect and 2nd round pick gets Jordan Staal?
Lombardi, Kadri and a 2nd.

Sounds good to me

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05-29-2012, 11:24 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That'd be a non-starter. Phillips is skilled, but far from a sure thing.
While I understand why you'd prefer Coyle to Phillips, seeing as he's further along in development, but he is far from a sure thing at this point.

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05-29-2012, 11:26 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
The Penguins goal totals the last 4 years:

272
228
249
258

Like I said, they could score 313, but it's a stretch. If everyone stays healthy, they might reach it, but like I said, I feel the more likely range would be somewhere between 250 to 290. You may disagree, and that's fine. I'm just playing the law of averages.
I think you need to re-read my post.

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05-29-2012, 11:30 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
While I understand why you'd prefer Coyle to Phillips, seeing as he's further along in development, but he is far from a sure thing at this point.
I'll put it this way: he's as close to a "sure thing" prospect as we'd need to think about moving Staal, and he has a lot of particulars we'd covet.

Big, skilled, strong, versatile two-way center who's producing very well. And RH to boot, which is a huge factor for us.

Bjugstad's a similar case.

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05-29-2012, 11:31 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
Not at all. If they all got those points, only 100 goals needed to be scored. But then consider that, for most of the time, they all play on different lines. Crosby and Malkin may get some time together during the powerplay or even-strength, but Staal doesn't really get a lot of time with either of them in any situation (I could be mistaken, but just from my viewings, that seems to be the situation).

Then consider that there are going to be goals scored that none of the three factor into. Or only one. So yes, for Crosby and Malkin to get at least 100 and Staal to get at least 60, an above average amount of goals need to be scored.
lol, another rock solid argument from the Bomber!

I guess it's good that the Pens have the two best offensive players in the world then?

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05-29-2012, 11:35 PM
  #633
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Originally Posted by Smif View Post
I would start with L. Schenn and Kulemin.
You'd have to start with the 5th overall pick or Shero would hang up the phone.

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05-29-2012, 11:37 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
You'd have to start with the 5th overall pick or Shero would hang up the phone.
Yeah. If people think that the big piece(s) in any deal for Staal would be a depreciating asset, they're misguided.

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05-29-2012, 11:38 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by Smif View Post
I was going to suggest a deal around Kulemin but was worried he wouldn't carry the amount of value he should coming off an off-season for him.

I would start with L. Schenn and Kulemin.
Good starting point. Throw in Bozak and the #5, and we will give you Martin and #22. Done deal?

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05-29-2012, 11:40 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
I think you need to re-read my post.
I don't. You said back in 08-09, Crosby/Malkin had 100+ and Staal had 49 points and the Pens only scored 260 goals. That really doesn't mean much. It's possible that Crosby/Malkin hit 100 and Staal hits 60 with the Penguins scoring less than 300, just like it's still theoretically possible that Crosby/Malkin have 100+ points and Staal scores 60 when the Penguins score only 101 goals. I'm talking more about a realistic total goal number for those players to reach their respective points.

It's not as simple as "Oh, they scored this much back then and they've improved, therefore, they should score more". If that were true, no team should have a lower goal total than the season before. Things change from season to season. Not only are the Penguins improving, but so are opposing teams. The Islanders, who I'm sure were the buttend of a couple blowouts back in 08-09, likely won't be in this upcoming season (or at least, not as many as back then).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
lol, another rock solid argument from the Bomber!

I guess it's good that the Pens have the two best offensive players in the world then?
Which led them to a whole 249 goals the last time they were both healthy. For the sake of argument, how much are you expecting the Penguins (as a team) to score next year?

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05-29-2012, 11:50 PM
  #637
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I don't. You said back in 08-09, Crosby/Malkin had 100+ and Staal had 49 points and the Pens only scored 260 goals. That really doesn't mean much. It's possible that Crosby/Malkin hit 100 and Staal hits 60 with the Penguins scoring less than 300, just like it's still theoretically possible that Crosby/Malkin have 100+ points and Staal scores 60 when the Penguins score only 101 goals. I'm talking more about a realistic total goal number for those players to reach their respective points.

It's not as simple as "Oh, they scored this much back then and they've improved, therefore, they should score more". If that were true, no team should have a lower goal total than the season before. Things change from season to season. Not only are the Penguins improving, but so are opposing teams. The Islanders, who I'm sure were the buttend of a couple blowouts back in 08-09, likely won't be in this upcoming season (or at least, not as many as back then).



Which led them to a whole 249 goals the last time they were both healthy. For the sake of argument, how much are you expecting the Penguins (as a team) to score next year?
lol, you've been all over the place in these threads. From,"Staal only wants to play with Eric" to "Pens better take anything for Staal before they lose him for free" to "Bolland and Sutter are basically the same as Staal" to "no way Staal can ever score 60 points with Malkin and Sid in the line-up"

I love it.

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05-29-2012, 11:51 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Good starting point. Throw in Bozak and the #5, and we will give you Martin and #22. Done deal?
How many Leaf fans have to say no to this before you finally give up?

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05-29-2012, 11:57 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
How many Leaf fans have to say no to this before you finally give up?
How many Pen fans have to tell you that Kulemin and Schenn isn't enough?

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05-29-2012, 11:58 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
lol, you've been all over the place in these threads. From,"Staal only wants to play with Eric" to "Pens better take anything for Staal before they lose him for free" to "Bolland and Sutter are basically the same as Staal" to "no way Staal can ever score 60 points with Malkin and Sid in the line-up"

I love it.
Considering I never said any of those things, it's no wonder you've got a bad opinion of me. Please, go back and find where I stated any of them. Any of them at all.

You're misreading posts, then getting snippy over what you believe you read.

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05-29-2012, 11:59 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
How many Leaf fans have to say no to this before you finally give up?
The previous poster was going to give us Kulemin Shenn and #5 for Staal and #22. I figured that was a little bit favorable for the Pens, so I evened it out value wise.

OK have it your way....Staal and #22 for Shenn Kulemin and #5. Done deal, we will send in the paperwork!

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05-29-2012, 11:59 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
And then when Staal walks as a UFA at seasons end, the Canucks are back to being a one line team.

No thanks.

Might as well wait 12 months and sign Staal to go along with Kesler.
If Staal were to be traded for Kesler, he would have to agree to sign an extension with Vancouver.

Obviously the Canucks won't give up a guy like Ryan Kesler if they couldn't re-sign Staal to an extension.

That would be a good deal for both teams if the Canucks really like Staal.

Oh, and about waiting 12 months. I really don't see Staal hitting UFA as I think he will either sign an extension with the Pens, or get traded and agree to sign an extension with the team he's traded to so we get full value.

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05-29-2012, 11:59 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I don't. You said back in 08-09, Crosby/Malkin had 100+ and Staal had 49 points and the Pens only scored 260 goals. That really doesn't mean much. It's possible that Crosby/Malkin hit 100 and Staal hits 60 with the Penguins scoring less than 300, just like it's still theoretically possible that Crosby/Malkin have 100+ points and Staal scores 60 when the Penguins score only 101 goals. I'm talking more about a realistic total goal number for those players to reach their respective points.

It's not as simple as "Oh, they scored this much back then and they've improved, therefore, they should score more". If that were true, no team should have a lower goal total than the season before. Things change from season to season. Not only are the Penguins improving, but so are opposing teams. The Islanders, who I'm sure were the buttend of a couple blowouts back in 08-09, likely won't be in this upcoming season (or at least, not as many as back then).

Which led them to a whole 249 goals the last time they were both healthy. For the sake of argument, how much are you expecting the Penguins (as a team) to score next year?
You do realize that Staal being a better offensive player allows our coach to doubleshift Geno on the wing more often.

There were several quotes back in November when Sid came back where he was saying that for large parts of the game, he'd have Geno on Sid or Staal's wing, especially when we're behind.

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05-30-2012, 12:05 AM
  #644
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Originally Posted by kimzey59 View Post
All you're trying to do here is shift the goalposts enough to continue your attempts to get a "premium return".

You brought up Richards; he didn't bring back a "premium return"(3rd liner, top prospect and 2nd liner is not a "premium return").

You brought up Boyle; he didn't bring back a premium return(2nd line winger, mid-level prospect and a very low 1st is not a premium return).

I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you; but teams almost never get a "Premium return" when dealing a top-end player. Going all the way back to the Lindros trade; only Danny Heatley has brought back "premium returns" in a trade(first Hossa, then Heatley). Almost all of the "top players" dealt in recent memory get a collection of lesser pieces when they get moved. You're looking at getting maybe 1 top 2 line/pairing caliber player, and then some picks and mid-level prospects to even out the value. This notion that you're going to get a winger for Crosby plus a few picks/prospects is nothing but unrealistic crazy talk.
If the best prospect in the NHL, a 40 point scorer (already was a 40 point guy when dealt) with upside that plays like a wrecking ball, and a 2nd rounder isn't premium, then I'm not sure what is.

For instance, from the Blues I'd expect something like D'Agostini, Tarasenko, and a 2nd.

From the Capitals (just throwing a random team out there), I'd expect to get Brouwer, Kuznetsov, and a 2nd.

From the Wild, Granlund and Brodziak (this package is a little more high end, as I believe Granlund is the best prospect who hasn't played in the NHL yet).

From the Jets, Schiefele, Eric Fehr, and something else (Schiefele is a little low end on that scale, Fehr is worse than Simmonds, but I don't think the difference is changing the pick to their first).

I think this is fair to expect especially when looking into their output over the last three seasons at Even Strength. In my opinion this is the most fair way to do it due to the fact that Richards has averaged around 3 mins per game on the PP, whereas Staal has averaged around 2, also with Richards getting #1 power play time and Staal only getting 2nd unit time.

Staal has put up 100 points in 185 games, and Richards has put up 94 points in 235 games. Let's say that again: over the last three seasons, Staal has put up more points at ES than Richards while missing 50 more games.

Now, one might think this has to do with Staal playing a higher amount of minutes at ES, which is true but much closer than expected. Staal over the past three seasons has averaged 14.99 ES mins/game, and Richards has averaged 14.31 ES mins/game, not coming close to making up the differential.

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Old
05-30-2012, 12:08 AM
  #645
Badger Mayhew
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
How many Pen fans have to tell you that Kulemin and Schenn isn't enough?
None because I clearly know that. Regardless, Kulemin+Schenn+Bozak+5th for Staal+Martin+22nd is a deal the Leafs don't do.

I kind of like Gunnarsson+Kulemin+5th for Staal+22nd. I'll have to think about it.


Last edited by Badger Mayhew: 05-30-2012 at 12:47 AM.
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05-30-2012, 03:27 AM
  #646
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Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber View Post
I don't. You said back in 08-09, Crosby/Malkin had 100+ and Staal had 49 points and the Pens only scored 260 goals. That really doesn't mean much. It's possible that Crosby/Malkin hit 100 and Staal hits 60 with the Penguins scoring less than 300, just like it's still theoretically possible that Crosby/Malkin have 100+ points and Staal scores 60 when the Penguins score only 101 goals. I'm talking more about a realistic total goal number for those players to reach their respective points.
Well, not "just like", because one is very much within the realm of possibility, and the other isn't. The Pens have already shown that they can come within a hair's breadth of 100, 100, 60, and they did it scoring 53 goals fewer than what you consider the bare minimum.

Quote:
It's not as simple as "Oh, they scored this much back then and they've improved, therefore, they should score more". If that were true, no team should have a lower goal total than the season before. Things change from season to season. Not only are the Penguins improving, but so are opposing teams. The Islanders, who I'm sure were the buttend of a couple blowouts back in 08-09, likely won't be in this upcoming season (or at least, not as many as back then).
I'm not speculating here...the Pens led the league in scoring last year with 273 - 13 more goals than they scored in '08-'09 - and they did it despite missing the most productive player in the world for most of the season and their #1 defenseman for 30 games.

Health permitting, scoring more than last year is a realistic expectation. One I'm sure you don't share, for obvious reasons.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 05-30-2012 at 03:36 AM.
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05-30-2012, 06:57 AM
  #647
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Originally Posted by Exit Dose View Post
Why is Richards a point of comparison here? He signed a team friendly deal to stay in Philly before they turned around and traded him. Is Staal blindly taking a discount with whatever team trades for him?
Richards contract was not a plus for some teams.

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05-30-2012, 07:04 AM
  #648
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Richards contract was not a plus for some teams.
Not for salary teams, but for cap teams it was.

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05-30-2012, 07:14 AM
  #649
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Good starting point. Throw in Bozak and the #5, and we will give you Martin and #22. Done deal?
The 5th is a non-starter for Leaf fans, you wont be getting a top 10 pick from any team because it means they're more than one piece away from being a contender.

I'd increase our offer to L. Schenn, Kulemin, and T. Biggs.

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05-30-2012, 07:56 AM
  #650
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Originally Posted by Smif View Post
The 5th is a non-starter for Leaf fans, you wont be getting a top 10 pick from any team because it means they're more than one piece away from being a contender.

I'd increase our offer to L. Schenn, Kulemin, and T. Biggs.
You'd give us two well-paid guys who had crap years AND a forward who scored 17 points in the NCAA last season?

How could anyone possibly refuse?

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