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Rebuilding Progress?

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Old
05-29-2012, 07:26 PM
  #26
Law
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Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.

Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.

Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.

Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.

Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.

Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.

Rebuild. Rinse. Repeat.



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05-29-2012, 08:43 PM
  #27
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zero progress. Drafting top 5 many years in a row is not showing progress. Their talent in the system may be better. But, as far as progress on the ice as a team? Zero.

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05-29-2012, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaredStreit View Post
Great post. The Kings built a very strong young core-and added in vets to help out (who weren't crappy 4th liners/3rd pairing/waiver wire players).
Yeah, and we definitely have the same drawing power as a team from Hollywood. Why haven't we done that, silly us!

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05-29-2012, 09:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by LAIslanderFan View Post
There's 2 names that will answer that question next year. Josh Bailey and Kyle Okposo. The last 2 months of the season, Okposo and Bailey were argueably the Islanders best players after JT. If Okposo and Bailey continue that kind of play next season, I believe the Islanders will make the playoffs. If Bailey and Okposo play like they did the first 2/3's of the year, the Isles will stay in neutral and they'll have to wait for the next tier of prospects to mature (Strome, Nelson, Nino, Kabonov...).
Yeah, I completely agree with this. Another problem the Isles have is it could be quite possible that Okposo and Bailey continue the output they showed at the end of the season, BUT Nabakov pulls a Roloson like he did for Tampa and goes downhill. At that point unless DP stays healthy and finds his form I don't think Poulin is going to be good enough to make us any better. So I would add Nabakov to the list of question marks!

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05-29-2012, 09:14 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Yeah, and we definitely have the same drawing power as a team from Hollywood. Why haven't we done that, silly us!
It's not like they built their team through free agency.

Scuderi, Mitchell, and Gagne are their only UFA signings.

Rest of the team was drafted or traded for.

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05-29-2012, 11:12 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Yeah, and we definitely have the same drawing power as a team from Hollywood. Why haven't we done that, silly us!
Rebuild What rebuild? Snow is no closer to rebuilding then he was 5 years ago.
This should be easy. Why is this so hard to get? We have 5 straight lottery picks after Snow started his rebuild.
Thats right 5 straight lottery picks. This team is treeding water and GOING NOWHERE unless major changes are made and I mean MAJOR!
Like someone has already told you ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PLAYER playing for LA has either been a prospect or got there by trade. I'll tell you again, just stop! You are trying way too hard by defending move after move buy Snow or this Islanders franchise. Stop tricking yourself into thinking that Garth Snow actually has a plan. He dosen't! You should take this team for what it is and just see this team as it is a lottery team year in and year out with no real progress treeding water.

I also dont want to hear "oh Snow has stockpiled our prospect pool".
I cant stand when people use that in defence of Snow. When ANYONE OF THOSE PROSPECTS ACTUALLY PANS OUT, then you can talk about how good his drafting has been.
I dont give a s*** what our prospects do at the lower levels, it's what they contribute when they reach the NHL level. I wont hold my breath with this team , I cant even remember the last top prpspect to be a game changer that we drafted.
Typical post from the biggest apologist Isles fan there is.
Listen , I dont know why this is so hard for you to understand. Post after post thread after thread you defend Garth Snow and this organization to the point of total lunacy!
Your way too optimistic about every part of this Isles team and I just do not see why.

We are no where closer to being a playoff contender then we were 5 years ago. Year after year it's the same old crap, when are some of you kool aiders ever going to wake up.


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05-29-2012, 11:13 PM
  #32
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We will always be rebuilding as long as wang is owner. I don't care what arena we play in. Ineptitude is ineptitude no matter where it plays.

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05-29-2012, 11:22 PM
  #33
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I think it was a game at Buffalo this past year with Dougie Weight coaching. The Isles were hanging on to any hopes of playoffs by a thread and they fell down 2-0 in the third. I nearly fell asleep watching the game and actually stood up shocked when Frans scored with around 5 left. They play with no emotion every other game and just lacked consistency.

Besides their number 1 line, this team has had no growth and were just boring and disappointing at times that were so crucial last year (awful loss to OTT).

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05-30-2012, 12:22 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by JTforPres2012 View Post
I think it was a game at Buffalo this past year with Dougie Weight coaching. The Isles were hanging on to any hopes of playoffs by a thread and they fell down 2-0 in the third. I nearly fell asleep watching the game and actually stood up shocked when Frans scored with around 5 left. They play with no emotion every other game and just lacked consistency.

Besides their number 1 line, this team has had no growth and were just boring and disappointing at times that were so crucial last year (awful loss to OTT).
I agree, this team as a whole really makes it hard to watch if your a fan of the Islanders and the game.
I must say in all my years watching this team they are no question the most boring Islanders team I have ever seen suit up for a whole season, it just seems like the majority of guys just go through the motions.
Watching this team this year and what I find alarming is this team has no fire, they play with no intensity, they have no character and all this shows up on the ice on a nightly basis and we as fans are stuck watching a bunch of boring,soft ,no fire,non physical, no intensity ect.
With the exception of Martin and Hamonic, this team has no physical players willing to play physical bring intensity and fire every single shift.

Our rivalry games are now actually boring, even Ranger-Islander games are boring to. The players on this team play with no emotion and fire. This is a big reason why I question this teams make up, if you cant get up for a Ranger game by showing some intensity,fire and emotion then how are you going to respond playing in the playoffs.

I just think this team has far too many players that play with no heart or emotion and just never look to get their hands dirty playing a boring soft style. Islander -Ranger games used to be filled with hate, emotions running high ect. This years series looked like we were playing just a regular game against a non rival. Just a boring season in every way.

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05-30-2012, 02:41 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Doug Height View Post
It's not like they built their team through free agency.

Scuderi, Mitchell, and Gagne are their only UFA signings.

Rest of the team was drafted or traded for.
There's an idea!

I think the majority of us include that. Older fans regard the trade thingy as equal to or greater than UFA signings in the rebuild idea. Thomas, Hogue, Turgeon, Ferraro and Krupp were trades. That was a rebuild and then some. (though a lot was a shift in chemistry/dynamics with the Patty discourse which the team bounced back from - and then faceplanted with)

We have kids. We have value. We have discourse (PAP). A GOOD GM would look at this like an opportunity to further the course and reach greater heights. Correct?

So the New NHL in our eyes as the Isles fanbase means we can only use UFA signings? We've sold our fate as helpless with Garth in the trade field? (aside from Montoya and relegated AHL gambles as well as the money savers like Hunter/Rolston)

Let's just say LA HAS A GM. He's ready to trade, sign or draft a winner. We're hesitant to upset our mediocrity.

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05-30-2012, 02:45 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Isles4ever82 View Post
I agree, this team as a whole really makes it hard to watch if your a fan of the Islanders and the game.
I must say in all my years watching this team they are no question the most boring Islanders team I have ever seen suit up for a whole season, it just seems like the majority of guys just go through the motions.
Watching this team this year and what I find alarming is this team has no fire, they play with no intensity, they have no character and all this shows up on the ice on a nightly basis and we as fans are stuck watching a bunch of boring,soft ,no fire,non physical, no intensity ect.
With the exception of Martin and Hamonic, this team has no physical players willing to play physical bring intensity and fire every single shift.

Our rivalry games are now actually boring, even Ranger-Islander games are boring to. The players on this team play with no emotion and fire. This is a big reason why I question this teams make up, if you cant get up for a Ranger game by showing some intensity,fire and emotion then how are you going to respond playing in the playoffs.

I just think this team has far too many players that play with no heart or emotion and just never look to get their hands dirty playing a boring soft style. Islander -Ranger games used to be filled with hate, emotions running high ect. This years series looked like we were playing just a regular game against a non rival. Just a boring season in every way.
Umm....I never saw Tavares take a shift off and he's gonna play ruggedly all he has to. (just not in bone crushing fashion)

It's hard to notice with Matty doing Swan Lake on his wing.

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05-30-2012, 09:34 AM
  #37
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Hmmmm, still seems to be a lot of folks here talking as though the Islanders are actually trying to build a winner and are failing at it.

Guys, they're not even trying. That's not part of the plan right now. If it would happen, it'd be a side effect of the path they're taking...

Nothing is happening here to compete for real until the arena situation is certain.

Even then, we have no guarantees that the team will do anything to truly attempt to compete.

Just enjoy the few highlights along the way (guys like Tavares, Martin and Hamonic) and hope for some miracle.

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05-30-2012, 09:58 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by leaponover View Post
Another problem the Isles have is it could be quite possible that Okposo and Bailey continue the output they showed at the end of the season, BUT Nabakov pulls a Roloson like he did for Tampa and goes downhill. At that point unless DP stays healthy and finds his form I don't think Poulin is going to be good enough to make us any better. So I would add Nabakov to the list of question marks!
I would be dumbfounded if Okposo jumps out of the gate and produces. It'll take him until January to get started. I think Nabby will be fine, but DP won't be.

It's a crying shame that Wang is wasting John Tavares' youth. Couldn't we just sign a couple of useful free agents instead of the zombies we got last season?

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05-30-2012, 10:25 AM
  #39
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The rebuild is entering year five now...it hasn't been five or six or seven years already like a couple of posts have said. I realize they haven't been a legit competitor since the team that took Toronto to seven games, and haven't been a playoff team since Jason Blake scored 40 goals, but the current rebuild we are judging began when Garth Snow addressed us all at the Coliseum after the 07-08 season. So the beginning of the rebuild was the 08 draft and the 08-09 season.

That said, in that time, there hasn't been much going right. We have a first-line center and a shutdown d-man through the draft. Add in a third-line banger in Martin. We have a 30-year old top-line winger through FA. Everything else is a question mark, from our young roster players that have been too inconsistent to judge, to our prospects that shouldn't be judged one way or the other just yet.

The critical thing for the Isles is developing the draft picks. I think that means doing what teams like Phoenix and more recently Florida have done...bringing in outside competent vets on 2-3 year contracts to allow the kids time to develop properly. No more rushing Josh Baileys because we don't have a center, and no more promises to Nino and handing away an unearned roster spot.

I judge the rebuild incomplete still, but if it's to succeed, a lot more needs to be done building the NHL squad for today to bridge it to tomorrow. Can't go in every year with the same issues...no size, no secondary scoring, no defense, no grit and three goaltenders. We've been dealing with these same issues since 2008, and not one has been resolved yet. It's tough to throw kids onto a team with that many holes and expect them to do it all themselves before they're ready.

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05-30-2012, 11:31 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Hmmmm, still seems to be a lot of folks here talking as though the Islanders are actually trying to build a winner and are failing at it.

Guys, they're not even trying. That's not part of the plan right now. If it would happen, it'd be a side effect of the path they're taking...

Nothing is happening here to compete for real until the arena situation is certain.

Even then, we have no guarantees that the team will do anything to truly attempt to compete.

Just enjoy the few highlights along the way (guys like Tavares, Martin and Hamonic) and hope for some miracle.
+1

I would call this post a full grasp of reality.

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05-30-2012, 12:22 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Hmmmm, still seems to be a lot of folks here talking as though the Islanders are actually trying to build a winner and are failing at it.

Guys, they're not even trying. That's not part of the plan right now. If it would happen, it'd be a side effect of the path they're taking...

Nothing is happening here to compete for real until the arena situation is certain.

Even then, we have no guarantees that the team will do anything to truly attempt to compete.

Just enjoy the few highlights along the way (guys like Tavares, Martin and Hamonic) and hope for some miracle.
Wang is cheap and Snow is an awful GM. They are trying to keep payroll down and see if a miracle happens. Spot on Chapin.


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05-30-2012, 12:44 PM
  #42
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We will always be rebuilding as long as wang is owner. I don't care what arena we play in. Ineptitude is ineptitude no matter where it plays.
See I disagree in a sense. We know Wang will spend money from when he first became owner. He continued to spend money in hopes of getting a building. When the building sank, he reduced spending. If the Isles had agreed on a building by now, I think Wang would be spending more money, not to the ceiling, but not at the floor either. Does Wang deserve some blame, yeah. But I put most of the blame around the uncertainty about the future of this team and the idiot politicians on LI, that can't get their heads out of their collective butts.

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05-30-2012, 12:52 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
See I disagree in a sense. We know Wang will spend money from when he first became owner. He continued to spend money in hopes of getting a building. When the building sank, he reduced spending. If the Isles had agreed on a building by now, I think Wang would be spending more money, not to the ceiling, but not at the floor either. Does Wang deserve some blame, yeah. But I put most of the blame around the uncertainty about the future of this team and the idiot politicians on LI, that can't get their heads out of their collective butts.
Is that accurate, though?

If a team's struggles are primarily linked to the uncertainty of what is going to happen to the team (will it move? will it be sold? Etc.), then wouldn't a team like Phoenix be in worse shape than the Isles? Yet even over the last handful of seasons where there's constant talk that "this is the year the Coyotes move", they've managed to ice a competitive, often times playoff caliber, team.

You don't believe the Isles situation is a lot more uncertain than the Phoenix one the past few seasons, do you?

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05-30-2012, 12:58 PM
  #44
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Is that accurate, though?

If a team's struggles are primarily linked to the uncertainty of what is going to happen to the team (will it move? will it be sold? Etc.), then wouldn't a team like Phoenix be in worse shape than the Isles? Yet even over the last handful of seasons where there's constant talk that "this is the year the Coyotes move", they've managed to ice a competitive, often times playoff caliber, team.

You don't believe the Isles situation is a lot more uncertain than the Phoenix one the past few seasons, do you?
In a way the situation is more uncertain. Phoenix has a home for the foreseeable future. Come 2015, the Isles have NOTHING. The struggle is CW won't spend money until he has assurances on a building.

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05-30-2012, 01:06 PM
  #45
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In a way the situation is more uncertain. Phoenix has a home for the foreseeable future. Come 2015, the Isles have NOTHING. The struggle is CW won't spend money until he has assurances on a building.
But come 2015, if there is no movement on the arena situation, I'm sure the league will do *something* about that. Unless you think they'd dissolve the franchise entirely, I think the league would "strongly suggest" it be moved to a place there is an arena capable of sustaining an NHL club. Phoenix's situation, IMO, is worse simply because over the last few years, there was literally talk each off-season of "is this the year they're sold/moved?", which is as uncertain as you can get.

At least with the Isles, the team is staying until 2015. There's a bit of certainty there, at least in the short term. If a player signs with the Isles, he knows that he'll be in Long Island until 2015. With Phoenix basically being a year to year thing, a player signing with Phoenix wouldn't be sure what city he was going to be playing in a year down the road.

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05-30-2012, 02:10 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
See I disagree in a sense. We know Wang will spend money from when he first became owner. He continued to spend money in hopes of getting a building. When the building sank, he reduced spending. If the Isles had agreed on a building by now, I think Wang would be spending more money, not to the ceiling, but not at the floor either. Does Wang deserve some blame, yeah. But I put most of the blame around the uncertainty about the future of this team and the idiot politicians on LI, that can't get their heads out of their collective butts.
Your post speaks volumes on exactly what kind of owner Wang is and what his aspirations are. It is clear that Wang is not committed to winning and may only be marginally committed to being competitive if it helps his real estate plan. A stand alone building with no other development rights is not what Wang wants. If he gets the taxpayer to build him an arena and as a result he loses his development rights he will look to sell the team IMHO.

The idea that the current Islander brain trust has meetings that concern improving on the ice is, frankly, quite laughable.

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05-30-2012, 02:13 PM
  #47
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People like to look at the Kings since they're in the SCF now. But really look into how the Kings rebuild went.

The Kings went from the 02-03 season through the 08-09 season without making the playoffs. That's 6 straight seasons, probably 7 if they played in 04-05. 7 straight years withou making the playoffs or hitting 90pts in the standings. That would be the same as the Islanders missing the playoffs for 2 more seasons.

Look at their 02-03 team. Their leading scorers were, ready for this, Ziggy Palffy, Mathieu Schneider, and Bryan Smolinski. That team is kinda like the 07-08 Isles team that was lead by Comrie, Guerin, and Satan. Both ageing teams with parts that didnt quite fit.

I personally don't count 07-08 as a rebuilding year for the Isles. Coming off the Buffalo playoffs I think they were still trying to squeeze in as an 8 seed. It didn't work and they decided to clean house and build up the farm.

This will be year 5 of the rebuild. If you want to start the Kings rebuild then in the 03-04 season, that would be the same as the Islanders. Going into their 5th year of rebuilding(07-08) they were coming off a season in which they went 32-43-7. Their leading scorers were all players that were original draft picks of the team. Go look at this roster and tell me what key Vets they had on that team?

Now look at the 08-09 Kings. That's season 5 of their rebuild, where the Isles will be this year. They went 34-37-11. Missed the playoffs again. That year they really only added Michal Handzus, all while still letting their kids come up and learn.

It was 09-10, after 7 years of not being in the playoffs that the Kings finally took a big step forward. That team finished 46-27-9, netting 101pts, their most since 90-91, and their first time over 90 since 01-02. That team added Ryan Smyth and Rob Scuderi, but it really won because of all their young players starting to mature.

The Kings didn't go out and start making big time trades or going after FA's untill this summer, after they had established themselves as a playoff team the previous 2 years. So that was really almost 9 years of being bad, getting rid of the older pieces, drafting young players, putting them in the NHL and letting them learn. Finally making the playoffs and having 2 first round exits. You could say at the time that LA also "rushed" their prospects and didn't give them proper development time in jouniors/AHL.

When Kopitar came into the league he was 19, one season after he was drafted. Doughty came into the league at 19, the same year he was drafted. Brown played when he was 19, the same year he was drafted. Johnson was in the league at 20, the year after he was drafted.

Now this isn't to say that the Isles are doing things right. But it's also a similar route that the Isles are taking now. While I agree with other posters on here that the Isles rebuild wont be able to really move forward in terms of spending money and adding solid pieces untill their building/future is decided, I also don't think what they've done untill now should be just thrown away.

No body can be happy with finishing out of the playoffs the last 5 years. No body should be happy with not knowing where we'll be in 2015. We can't be happy about circumventing the cap floor. But I also think it's just too early to say this isn't gonna work. I need to see Strome, Nino, deHaan, Donavon, Nelson, Kabanov, Poulin/Nillison prove that they're failing at the NHL level, while Okie and Bailey just stay where they are and don't progress any furthur untill I say the rebuild is either non existant or not working. It just might continue to take a little bit longer.

On the bright side, if we can get something done arena wise, and the Isles have a new home going into 2015, they should also still have a good amount of cap room and lots of prospects ready to contribute between the ages of 20-25 at that point.

Not saying I fully endorse Garth, or that hid vision will ever work, but I still think it's too early to really tell considering the outside factors, and inside facotrs of not spending money.

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05-30-2012, 02:34 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Hmmmm, still seems to be a lot of folks here talking as though the Islanders are actually trying to build a winner and are failing at it.

Guys, they're not even trying. That's not part of the plan right now. If it would happen, it'd be a side effect of the path they're taking...

Nothing is happening here to compete for real until the arena situation is certain.

Even then, we have no guarantees that the team will do anything to truly attempt to compete.

Just enjoy the few highlights along the way (guys like Tavares, Martin and Hamonic) and hope for some miracle.
so true.

you can't evaluate this as a rebuild because it's not. It's spending as little cash as possible while getting to the floor, doing all the team can with has-beens and youth with potential. nothing more.

Given the FACTS, this team is exactly where it should be, in the bottom five. This is where they will stay unless they magically get two more defensemen and two more top nine forwards AND get development from some key young players AND get good goaltending.


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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Is that accurate, though?

If a team's struggles are primarily linked to the uncertainty of what is going to happen to the team (will it move? will it be sold? Etc.), then wouldn't a team like Phoenix be in worse shape than the Isles? Yet even over the last handful of seasons where there's constant talk that "this is the year the Coyotes move", they've managed to ice a competitive, often times playoff caliber, team.

You don't believe the Isles situation is a lot more uncertain than the Phoenix one the past few seasons, do you?
And NJ will likely be bankrupt after they win the cup.

You can build a winner with a strong GM, smart spending and being very shrewd about where/when you spend money.

I heard Lou Lamoriello on the FAN590 (Toronto) yesterday, the guy is eff'n brilliant and commands respect around the game. The way he spoke about Parise, Brodeur, how the team is run, how he separates the on-ice game from the off-ice issues - unparalleled.

I'm not suggesting that Lou is something "we should get" because it's not that simple. But let's not kid ourselves, a top GM who can attract/retain great players, great coaches, who can walk away from a Rafalski and lose some really great players to UFA, and still put a competitive team on the ice is something the NYI don't have. In the end, all GMs have a budget, unfortunately Snow's is "far below the floor" but there's still real dollars being spent on a lot of players who do absolutely NOTHING to help the team win.

Lou said he often talks to players about the team, but NEVER will discuss potential personnel moves. He said he'd never want any one player to lose credibility "in the room", with his teammates, that the cohesiveness of the room overrides everything. Elias talked about that as well today. These are guys who's been Devils for 40 years (pretty much). Elias said Kovy's game is night-and-day better this year than last year, and Kovy's said the same thing. His work ethic and consistency all over the ice, commitment to winning. Elias said "In Atlanta, the team played around Kovalchuk, and that's what he was used to" (paraphrasing) - but that he's bought into the team concept much more this year. On Parise, Lou's not even thinking about UFA and expects to have that conversation after the playoffs and he always approached it that Pairse would stay.

He may be wrong in this case, but I think it doesn't matter, because a great GM won't sweat the loss of any one player. Their role is to build a sustainable team. The Isles need a culture like this and that's not a rebuild. That's not even something Snow can deliver in 4-5 years. I think Snow WANTS that, given his approach and the loyalty he's shown to some players but that takes time. A long time. Without the proper financial support from ownership, it takes even longer. The meddling and political distractions and media credentials - well, that just makes it impossible to be seen as anything but a laughing stock.

Let's not confuse the rebuild on the ice with the sheer disaster that this whole organization is today. They have JT and not much else.

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05-30-2012, 02:34 PM
  #49
periferal
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Originally Posted by 10 Min Misconduct View Post
See I disagree in a sense. We know Wang will spend money from when he first became owner. He continued to spend money in hopes of getting a building. When the building sank, he reduced spending. If the Isles had agreed on a building by now, I think Wang would be spending more money, not to the ceiling, but not at the floor either. Does Wang deserve some blame, yeah. But I put most of the blame around the uncertainty about the future of this team and the idiot politicians on LI, that can't get their heads out of their collective butts.

I'm not talking about spending money. I'm talking about making good decisions.

Dan Snyder spends all the money in the world. How have the Redskins done with him as owner?

You're telling me wang gets his arena/development with lots more revenue streams so he can now spend freely and you trust him to make the decisions to lead us to a Stanley Cup?
  • The same Wang who REFUSED to fire Mike Milbury?
  • The same Wang who looked into getting sumo wrestlers for goalies?
  • The same Wang who hired Neil Smith for 40 days...And replaced him with a backup goalie with zero front office experience?
  • The same guy who forced Milbury's hand to trade Chara and the #2 pick (Spezza) for Alexei Yashin...And then gave him a 10 year deal?
  • The same Wang who didn't learn from that mistake and then gave DiPietro a 15 year deal?
  • The same Wang who ushered out Billy Jaffe for a guy who cannot pronounce the names of his own players?
  • The same Wang who refuses to talk to Queens despite Nassau essentially spitting in his face?

Money has little to do with the big picture here, which is that Wang has PROVEN himself to be inept as an NHL owner and more money from a new arena won't all of a sudden make him a competant one. Money (lack of new arena) is just a shield Wang, along with so many Isles' fans, can hide behind now so we all don't have to face the sad sad sad fact that...


...With Wang as owner we have no hope of being a true Stanley Cup contender.

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05-30-2012, 04:30 PM
  #50
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Very little progress, in fact I'd say we have regressed over the past few years.

They continue to draft high picks while the former picks, like Okposo and Bailey disappoint. I'm not even that impressed with our prospects, most who seem to be pegged as third liners at best or second pairing defenseman. Strome and Nino have potential but they have not performed up to par with their draft stock as of now.

If we're not going to trade or sign anyone of note, our prospect pool and the players we graduated should be a bit better IMO.

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